MEEP: Voting Policies 2

Author: bsh1 ,

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  • bsh1
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    About MEEP

    MEEPs (Moderation Engagement and Enactment Processes) are official comment periods where moderation proposes and solicits feedback on various potential moderation policies. MEEPs allow moderation to pose questions about moderation policy to the site usership and empower the site usership to either ratify or reject moderation's proposals. In order for a moderation proposal to be ratified, at least 10 users must have expressed a preference on the policy in question, and more than a majority of those expressing a preference must be in agreement. That means, in a MEEP with 10 voters, the minimum threshold for a binding result is 7-3; similarly, in a MEEP with 19 voters, the minimum threshold for a binding result is 11-8. This ensures that the outcome of the process reflects the consensus of a significant number of site users. If a MEEP result is not binding/valid, moderation will maintain the pre-MEEP status quo, whatever that happens to be.

    This MEEP will be open for user votes until 11:30pm, EST, on 4/23/19. This voting period may be extended by up to twelve hours if there are fewer than 10 votes on any of the specific questions put to the usership. Any extension will apply to all questions. Votes cast after the deadline will not be considered. 

    The Questions

    Below is an enumerated list of the content to be voted on. A brief explanation of each question is included as well.

    1. Voting Criteria Run-off: Should Plan B or Plan C be adopted?

    The last MEEP process asked the site's usership whether their should be criteria that must be satisfied in order to be eligible to vote on debates. The usership answered that question with a clear "yes," but was unable to clearly decide which proposed set of criteria should be adopted. This question asks which of the two finalist plans from the last MEEP should be implemented. Please answer by indicating clearly a preference for Plan B or Plan C.

    • Plan B: Accounts must have read the site's COC AND completed at least 1 non-troll debate without any forfeits OR posted 50 forum posts
    • Plan C: Accounts must have read the site's COC AND completed at least 2 non-troll debates without any forfeits OR posted 100 forum posts
    2. How should a "troll debate" be defined?

    Currently, it is the case that troll debates are not-moderated. This is done for numerous reasons, including the increased subjectivity which is often involved and the generally more lighthearted nature of the debates. However, this question is not asking whether troll debates should be moderated. Instead, it is asking how troll debates ought to be defined. Please rank the following three options from 1-3, with 3 indicating your most preferred choice. Plan B represents the definition currently in use by moderation. Failure to make a choice will result in Plan B continuing to be used.

    • Plan A - A troll debate is any (a) competition-style debate (e.g. rap battle, talent show, poetry competition), (b) debate primarily designed to be humorous or facetious or containing primarily humorous or facetious content, and (c) debate on a truism (e.g. "a bachelor is someone who is unmarried").
    • Plan B - A troll debate is any (a) competition-style debate (e.g. rap battle, talent show, poetry competition), (b) debate primarily designed to be humorous or facetious or containing primarily humorous or facetious content, (c) debate on a truism (e.g. "a bachelor is someone who is unmarried"), and (d) debate in which one of the debaters is a subject (e.g. "Bsh1 is gay").
    • Plan C - A troll debate is any (a) competition-style debate (e.g. rap battle, talent show, poetry competition), (b) debate primarily designed to be humorous or facetious or containing primarily humorous or facetious content, (c) debate on a truism (e.g. "a bachelor is someone who is unmarried"), (d) debate in which one of the debaters is a subject (e.g. "Bsh1 is gay"), and (e) debate in which another dart user is the subject.
    3. Should there be a voting moderation opt-out possibility on debates?

    Not every user wants moderation on debates. While moderation should, in my view, always be the default (in order to protect users from the worst and most capricious voting practices), there may be cases where debaters would like to opt-out of voting moderation. Therefore, should debaters be allowed to opt-out of voting moderation on their debates if the instigator clearly and obviously opts out of moderation in the full description of the debate? Please answer "yes" or "no."

  • bsh1
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    4. What should count as a sufficient vote in the choose-winner voting system?

    There is currently no comprehensive standard for the choose winner voting system. Currently, the point system standard for argument points is being cross-applied to the choose winner system, but this temporary stopgap is not a permanent solution. It cannot capture the "differentness" of the two voting systems. The following two paragraphs constitute a proposed standard of sufficiency for the choose winner system, and reflect a combination of both the point system's argument and conduct standards. Do you wish to adopt this standard of sufficiency for the choose winner system? A vote against this standard will maintain the current stopgap policy by default. Please answer "yes" or "no."

    "To cast a sufficient vote in the choose winner system, a voter must explicitly, and in the text of their RFD, perform the following tasks: (a) survey the main arguments and counterarguments presented in the debate, (b) weigh those arguments against each other (or explain why certain arguments need not be weighed based on what transpired within the debate itself), and (c) explain how, through the process of weighing, they arrived at their voting decision with regard to assigning argument points. Weighing entails analyzing how the relative strength of one argument or set of arguments outweighed (that is, out-impacted) and/or precluded another argument or set of arguments. Weighing requires analyzing and situating arguments and counterarguments within the context of the debate as a whole.

    The voter may also consider conduct which makes the debate space extremely toxic and breaches of the mutually agreed rules of the debate in their analysis. A voter who awards points on the basis of toxic alone behavior must (1) provide specific references to instances of poor conduct which occurred in the debate (2) explain why the conduct made the debate space intensely hostile, and (3) compare each debater's conduct from the debate. A voter may choose to exclude or reduce the weight of certain arguments on the basis of rules breaches, but must explain which rules were breached and why those breaches justify the exclusion or minimization of the arguments in question. A voter who awards points on the basis of rule breaches alone must (1) provide specific references to the breaches which occurred in the debate (2) explain why those breaches were serious enough to merit a loss by explaining how the rules either mandate a loss for rule-breakers or how the breach made the debate unfair, ND (3) compare each debater's conformity to the debate rules."

    Thank you for your participation in this MEEP process!

  • RationalMadman
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    1. C
    2. A
    3. No.
    4. This style of voting should only be used for question 2's debates.

  • Ragnar
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    1. Plan C.
    2. (3)Plan A... I have a preference against the other two standards, as a user (or their conduct) can be a debate subject, and the voting should not be allowed to be based on mere popularity of the users in question with no ability for vote bombs to be deleted. I also disagree with truisms necessarily being troll debates to not be moderated... Honestly, the term troll debate may be too wide of an umbrella term, when what we're talking about is subjects to not be moderated.
    3. Yes and No. Yes in general (write "troll debate" in the description, and it's already done), no to people "clearly and obviously opts out of moderation in the ... first round of the debate" that is after someone has accepted.
    4. Yes. Heck, I know I've already cast votes along those lines (arguments were plagiarized so I'm dismissing them, as a common example).
  • bsh1
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    --> @Ragnar
    after someone has accepted.
    That is fair enough. I will amend the original text to remove that. As amended, would it gain your vote?
  • bsh1
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    --> @RationalMadman
    1. This style of voting should only be used for question 2's debates.
    Do you have a yes/no vote to cast?
  • TheRealNihilist
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    --> @bsh1
    1. I would pick C because there is a little difference between 50 and 100 forum posts if you are active on the site. 2 debates is also a really easy requirement to meet if people actually care about their presence on the site.

    2. I don't know. 

    3. If you remove moderation I am sure this can lead to the person asking for the removal from their debate to ask their friends to vote bomb the debate in his/her favour. I think that would be a problem if this was an option so I would say no because I don't see the positives of such an idea and the problem I mentioned earlier requires moderation. 

    4. Okay claim, evidence and explanations sounds good enough for me. I hope I not reading that wrong.
    From my argument here https://www.debateart.com/debates/742 which is an example of a claim, evidence and explanation:

    Secondly drugs are smuggled in using legal ports of entry. Claim

    This is sourced by the National Drug Threat Assessment. Evidence
    Click here if you don't want to find it in the article “National Drug Threat Assessment

    If it wasn’t clear already Trump has made no mention of improving the legal ports and since it wouldn’t be intrinsic to a border wall therefore another problem a Trump proposed border wall will not fix. Explanation


  • Alec
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    --> @bsh1
    I think a policy should be that the votes should not require a RFD because they don't help or hurt either debator.  Can you extend the deadline of this forum because 48 hours isn't enough time to get the votes in.  Try a week's worth of time.
  • Alec
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    --> @bsh1
    1) Plan B.
    2) A,B,C
    3)Yes.
    4)Yes.  Treat both types of debates consistently.

  • Ramshutu
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    --> @bsh1
    1: C
    2: A
    3: No
    4. Yes
  • Alec
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    --> @Ramshutu
    For choice 2, I think bsh1 wants you to rank them.
  • Speedrace
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    --> @bsh1
    1. C
    2. B
    3. No
    4. Yes
  • Vaarka
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    When will mafia come back? 
  • Our_Boat_is_Right
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    --> @bsh1
    1) A
    2) A, B, C
    3) Yes
    4) Yes

    I would also like to add a common sense rule change regarding the sources.

    When voters address the reliability of sources used in the debate, they should only be able to judge based on the article or direct source itself, and not the overall website that is the owner of the article.  Voters should judge this way so they address the specific sources regarding the debate, not their overall opinions or popularity of the website owner (ex. address the specific article from FOX news, not the overall website and thoughts on media bias of FOX news as a whole)

  • bsh1
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    Question 1

    B - 1
    C - 5

    Question 2

    A - 6
    B - 4
    C - 2

    Question 3

    Yes - 2
    No - 3

    Question 4

    Yes - 5
    No - 0
  • bsh1
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    --> @Ragnar @Ramshutu @RationalMadman @Speedrace
    Could all of you please re-vote for question 2 by ranking the options, as requested in the OP.

    Also, RM and Ragnar, could you please revote for question 3, as the text of the question was changed.
  • bsh1
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    --> @Our_Boat_is_Right
    For question 1, there is no option A. Please clarify your vote.
  • bsh1
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    --> @TheRealNihilist
    For the last question, I was unclear as to whether you were voting yes or no. Please clarify your vote.
  • bsh1
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    --> @Vaarka
    When people start playing again, I guess. It's a bit out of my hands. But you could always try to organize something.
  • TheRealNihilist
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    --> @bsh1
     I was unclear as to whether you were voting yes or no. 
    Was what I said correct about needing a claim, evidence and explanation?
    If so then that is a yes. 
  • Speedrace
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    --> @bsh1
    2. B, A, C
  • bsh1
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    Question 1

    B - 1
    C - 5

    Question 2

    A - 8
    B - 7
    C - 3

    Question 3

    Yes - 2
    No - 3

    Question 4

    Yes - 6
    No - 0

  • dave2242
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    --> @bsh1
    i have only a opinion on #1 which i vote c 
  • RationalMadman
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    --> @bsh1
    If I pick A, which of the three do you think I think is most shitty?

    A>B>C

  • RationalMadman
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    --> @bsh1
    Nothing has changed for question 3, answer is no. It will enable cheating to get up the leaderboard and I will actively vote against people who employ it and laugh at their inability to remove my vote the same way Ramshutu did to me with my rap battles.