Free Will & The Christian - Get Out.

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  • Stephen
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     It never ceases to baffle me as to why it is Christians  spout the phrase " free will" when ever they find themselves on the back foot of many religious arguments.

    Ask a Christian why it was the biblical Adam chose to defy his god and his maker no less, and they simply throw at that one single phrase - free will - but never hang around long enough to explain what "free will" actually is in the biblical sense or when it was granted. 

    We get to Genesis 9 and god seems happy with his handy work, and his happiness is expressed again at Genesis 12  & again at 21,25 and up until god has one more look over his creation and it says at  31 "God saw all that he had made, and it was very good."

    So we have humans created in the image of a god and god was very pleased and though all was "good" yet they both defy what god says. And no explanation as to why this happened. We hear that this pair of humans were somehow "beguiled" by a being known as the serpent. But if we backtrack just a few verses we can re-read that these humans were created in the image of god himself. and no mention whatsoever of them being granted anything resembling free will.. Or even a mention to them to beware of any being calling himself a reptile.


  • secularmerlin
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    If any omniscient being existed freewill would logically be precluded (actions counter to the preexisting knowledge of said beingvwpuld be imposdible).
  • Stephen
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    --> @secularmerlin
    If any omniscient being existed freewill would logically be precluded

    I am looking for the Christian take on this , but I do agree. 
  • secularmerlin
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    Still no luck getting a christian perspective?
  • Stephen
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    --> @secularmerlin
    It appears yet again that christian apologist simply cannot face facts. It  shouldn't though,  come as any surprise.  But at least no one wants to kill me for criticizing Christianity and questioning the bible. I am not even called  christianophobic.
  • keithprosser
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    --> @secularmerlin
    If any omniscient being existed freewill would logically be precluded (actions counter to the preexisting knowledge of said beingvwpuld be imposdible).
    I don't set much store by arguments that hinge on infinite attributes.   I'd point out that YHWH took six days to create the universe - a literally omnipotent entity could have done it in one, and not needed a rest afterwards.  Nonetheless, I reckon a being that can make a universe in under a week still qualifies as a god!

    Cantor showed our ideas about infinity were wrong only in the C19, so I think that when god is descibed as 'omni-thing' it really meant god is 'extremely-thing', not literally 'infinitely-thing'.

    It may be that a literally 'omniscient' entity precludes free will, but what if a god only knows almost everything?   Granting a god infinte qualities makes it easy to knock up trivial proofs and disproofs about that god but I don't think an entity has to be literally infinite in power to be a god.


  • secularmerlin
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    --> @Stephen
    I am not even called  christianophobic
    This is likely because you did not strongly imply that anyone who follows the bible must be either a dangerous criminal or doing it wrong in this post.

  • secularmerlin
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    --> @keithprosser
    Many Christians claim that the Yahweh has an all encompassing and irrefutable plan. Whether the Yahweh is truly omniscient or merely maximally knowledgable this is inconsistent with the idea of freewill.
  • EtrnlVw
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    --> @secularmerlin
    It may be that a literally 'omniscient' entity precludes free will, but what if a god only knows almost everything?  
    You're on the right track, God can't know everything only It's own actions and "mind". God knows everything in the moment, God also can have predictive ability but the Creator imparted to the soul a creative imagination and it's own mind. There's too many dynamics involved with the creative abilities man has to ever be "omniscient". God creates the environment and settings for man but the soul has it's own will, and it's imagination can never be pre-ordained. So yeah, people have to get over the misconception that God knows everything BEFORE they play out. There's all sorts of things God has control over, but not the will.
    Granting a god infinte qualities makes it easy to knock up trivial proofs and disproofs about that god but I don't think an entity has to be literally infinite in power to be a god.
    Bingo, God just has to be maximal, as all things come out of God anyways there's nothing that has more ability or power than God. God is infinite though and even omnipresent but the nature of consciousness and the imagination are too complex to ever foretell. Once creation has been established and once the soul is placed within its environment God can have predictive power as God is aware of all things but this predestination and preordained stuff is nonsense. God can also "predestine" our world and our environment, predestine some of our circumstances but does not have full knowledge of souls who will be created. When a soul is sent into the created worlds it develops its own personality and desires through it's own experiences and perceptions, it's choices will be based on those things and as I said, there's just too many dynamics to have a predictive element of it.

  • disgusted
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    Gods all come from the imagination of men, gods don't create anything.
  • ronjs
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    --> @secularmerlin
    An omniscient being can give free will to who He pleases, and he would not want automatons.
  • secularmerlin
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    --> @ronjs
    An omniscient being can give free will to who He pleases, and he would not want automatons.

    Omniscience is logically incoherent. Perhaps you mean maximally powerful.
  • keithprosser
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    --> @Stephen
    It appears yet again that christian apologist simply cannot face facts. It  shouldn't though,  come as any surprise.  But at least no one wants to kill me for criticizing Christianity and questioning the bible. I am not even called  christianophobic.
    It's terrible how standards have slipped in 3000 years.

    Lev 24:16 And he that blasphemeth the name of the LORD, he shall surely be put to death; all the congregation shall certainly stone him; as well the stranger, as the home-born, when he blasphemeth the Name, shall be put to death.

    I don't think Jesus cancelled that one!   There is no scriptural reason why you shouldn't be put to death I know of. 
  • Stephen
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    --> @keithprosser
    it's terrible how standards have slipped in 3000 years.

    It is amazing how Islam for instance shows that it has no intention of letting it's "standards slip". The muslim Sultan of Brunei for instance has just recently REAFFIRMED his stance on muslim sharia law which he proudly announces his allegiance to Allah with the death sentence of stoning for blasphemy. And calls for "stronger Islam"https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2019/04/brunei-enacts-sharia-law-sultan-calls-stronger-islam-190403060932396.html What ever does "stronger Islam " mean?

    Lev 

    That would be the ancient Old Testament that even Jews have never recognised and that doesn't have much to do with Christianity (if anything)since there was a new covenant ie (it moved with the times) when The Christ came along.

    I don't think Jesus cancelled that one!  

    That is interesting. And can you support that claim with say, a verse spoken by the Christ cancelling blasphemy? Or better still, could you point out a verse for us where it has the Christ ordering the  stoning of anyone  for blasphemy?

    There is no scriptural reason why you shouldn't be put to death I know of.
    There is nothing saying I should , could or would be stoned coming from the mouth Christ god in the New Testament either. 

    You're still trying - and failing - to conflate 7th century Islam  with today's 21st century Christianity by using ancient Hebrew scriptures, How many times must I tell you;  Its doesn't work!

     Just to remind you prosser, the thread is called _ Free Will & The Christian - Get Out. Christians for instance, once they have painted themselves into a corner ( as you often do when defending Islam) with outrageous statements as to why god allowed sin in the first place, come up with the default argument of "free will". 

    It is also odd that Christians forget the threat of death from the biblical Old Testament god which,  in my mind rules out "free will" immediately. It is also odd that Christians do not even entertain the question as to why when this perfect couple are given the stern warning  of the penalty for defiance  that the same god didn't bother to tell this  couple that a servant of his will be along soon to try to tempt them? 




  • disgusted
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    --> @Stephen
    Have you not heard of YHWH the god of christians? He ordered the murder of thousands, well he did if you believe the book written by ignorant, primitive, superstitious savages he did.

    that claim with say, a verse spoken by the Chris
    There is no verifiable words spoken by the "christ" ever recorded.
  • keithprosser
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    You're still trying - and failing - to conflate 7th century Islam  with today's 21st century Christianity by using ancient Hebrew scriptures, How many times must I tell you;  Its doesn't work!
    Makes me wonder why Christians keep the dam OT around if they're just going to ignore it!   The reason Christians don't have to follow Mosaic law is that Paul had that requirement dropped to make it easier to get gentiles to convert.

    I have been assuming you were atheist or agnostic - are you a Christian?
  • Stephen
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    --> @keithprosser
    Makes me wonder why Christians keep the dam OT around if they're just going to ignore it!  

    Me too. But I think it just may have something to do with a glimpse into ancient history. who nows, who fkn cares? At least you recognised it is actually "ignored" by christians and I would like you to remember you said that.  NOTE TO KEITHPROSSER  "Christians IGNORE the Old Testament!!!!". Now you know not to bring it up when discussing the barbaric ideolgy of Islam.


    The reason Christians don't have to follow Mosaic law is that Paul had that requirement dropped to make it easier to get gentiles to convert.


     So why then, if you know  that St Paul  "had that requirement dropped",   do you continuously bring it up and conflate it with , 21st century Christianity as some kind of defence for Islam?

    I have been assuming you were atheist or agnostic - are you a Christian?

     I have told you my stance as far as gods and religion are concerned, you should know it very well by know, unless of course, you have chosen to purposely  ignore it.
    What I am or what my stance is has absolutely nothing to do with this thread or YOU come to that.  I have made my opinions of the NT and the Christian teachings very clear many times. 

  • Mopac
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    --> @Stephen
    The Church teaches that free will is an aspect of us being created in God's image.


    What is meant by free will is not that we can from our own will jump to the moon and back, it is that we have the ability to choose whether or not we move away from God and reject Him in our intent, or abide in God.


    So it would probably be better described as freedom of choice.

    And The Church, holding this in the utmost reverence, is against the use of coercion when it comes to the faith. For someone to become Orthodox, they have to really want to become Orthodox.


  • disgusted
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    --> @Stephen
    Christians ignore the OT when it suits them and hang their hat on it when it suits them.
  • Stephen
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    The Church teaches that free will is an aspect of us being created in God's image.

    The church also teaches a lot of things that are simply not true. But what does the bible actually say about "free will"?   What does god say about "free will"?   Is it "free will" if it comes with a penalty of death?   Why didn't god warn his perfectly created beings -  who he actually says were good -  that they would be tempted by a "beguiling" being?   If they were created in the "image of god" then how is it that they "fell" immediately to the so called "serpent"? Why did they choose to defy their father/god over a stranger? 


    What is meant by free will is not that we can from our own will jump to the moon and back,

    Yes I think I am old enough to have worked that out. We are talking defiance in the face of death that Christians call "free will".

    it is that we have the ability to choose whether or not we move away from God and reject Him in our intent, or abide in God.

    That is nothing more than a belief without evidence and no more than an opinion without evidence.  Where in the biblical scripture of the creation story does it mention ' and god gave them "free will"?  What you say above makes absolutely no sense,  unless you can answer all the questions above.  There is nothing at all in the scripture resembling anything you have said or should I say -  what you and the church have made up. 

    So it would probably be better described as freedom of choice.

    Well that would be nearer the truth wouldn't it. Because the choice was - do as I command or die - and very much the opposite to " free will".  And this would be more in keeping with the Old Testament God of war and violence and especially a god of "jealousy" and nothing like the Christian teaching that says our  transgressions are forgiven. 





  • Stephen
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    --> @disgusted
    Christians ignore the OT when it suits them and hang their hat on it when it suits them.

    Any examples?  I thought not.
  • keithprosser
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    --> @Stephen
    Some examples are familiar to most people, such as

    numbers 15:32-36 (stoning for breaking sabbath)  - out.
    Lev 20:13 (stoning for gay sex) - in (or possibly out)

    I have no idea how many more there are. 'loads' probably.
  • keithprosser
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    --> @Stephen
    The church also teaches a lot of things that are simply not true. But what does the bible actually say about "free will"?   What does god say about "free will"?   Is it "free will" if it comes with a penalty of death?   Why didn't god warn his perfectly created beings -  who he actually says were good -  that they would be tempted by a "beguiling" being?   If they were created in the "image of god" then how is it that they "fell" immediately to the so called "serpent"? Why did they choose to defy their father/god over a stranger? 
    I think its safe to say that genesis predates most philosophical debate on the norbiddeature of free will!   That Adam and Eve had free will is not explicit in the text for the same reason its not stated explicitly that they hard arms and legs.  That Adam and Eve had the same power to choose as we have is no more a major issue than that they could walk as we do.

    Adam and Eve are not presented to as perfect super beings but as ordinary people like you and I.  God placed them in a pardise with but one instruction - don't eat the forbidden fruit.  Anyone who has a sense of narrative knows what must happen after that set-up!

    All Steve's questions are answered by the simple fact that Adam and Eve behave like real people do - and like real people they screw it up.
  • Deb-8-a-bull
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    --> @keithprosser
    It seems like our meer made up human laws have curved this hey?

    Like back in the day  God had his followers going from house to house killing peoples from the " other " groups. 
    Now this still happens but ummmmmmm,  they don't all partake. 
    Hey keithy? I call these.   half arsed theists. Or HAT's, ha i just seen half arsed theists first letters spelt hat so i just went with it. 

    So what i want to say is . They've still EXACTLY the same God back then, as they do now. Full stop. 

    So Why dont they go houes to house killing ? 

    Maybe this bible thing was to calm them down. 
    But hows The importance of these couple of holy text we have hey keith.  And the creator/ writer / publisher of them. If only they knew a quarter of the importance they are held at. 
    WOW.
    Good game.
    Good day.


      

  • Stephen
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    --> @keithprosser
    Some examples are familiar to most people, such as

    numbers 15:32-36 (stoning for breaking sabbath)  - out.
    Lev 20:13 (stoning for gay sex) - in (or possibly out)

    I have no idea how many more there are. 'loads' probably.

     That's the ignoring part of my question answered now how about that other part. You obviously didn't take the question that  I asked someone else   as a whole did you. No surprises there though.

     They (Christians)  have every right to ignore the OT. You said yourself above - " Christians don't have to follow Mosaic law is that Paul had that requirement dropped to make it easier to get gentiles to convert. and they ignore it regardless of what Paul says too.

    So apart from the obvious Ten Commandments that even atheists agree with in part,  where are the " hang their hat on it" examples?