Veganism

Author: Snoopy ,

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  • K_Michael
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    --> @Alec
    "deer die relatively painlessly when shot."
    Only if you hit the right spot! Chickens die more painlessly on average, because they don't get away with a punctured lung or other wounds. Many people shoot their deer and it gets away, or lives for hours after in agony before death. You've obviously never been hunting. 
  • TheDredPriateRoberts
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    --> @K_Michael
    I don't hunt but have known a lot of people who do.  Deer basically lay down and die, they don't thrash about or show any signs of pain or agony.  I'm not certain what their brains are actually capable of.  They can't know they are dying because they don't know they are alive.
    Pain is just a neurological response to a stimuli.  We generally don't like it, but does that mean it's bad?
  • K_Michael
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    --> @TheDredPriateRoberts
    You're completely wrong! Quite often, a deer will only be hit in the lungs or something, and run away. They will die fairly quickly if you hit something vital, but people lose deer all the time, which means it gets away wounded or suffering, or it dies and is never found, which means it suffers for no reason.

  • TheDredPriateRoberts
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    --> @K_Michael
    I'm not saying they don't run away and don't need to be tracked, not sure how you got that from what I said.  But yes they do get shot in the lungs run off of varying distances, lay down and die.  This does not indicate suffering.  I'm not saying they don't suffer or how that is even defined but I have not read any such evidence to suggest it.
    people lose deer and make lots of unintended mistakes about a great many things, like car accidents, should be ban everything that people can make a mistake with that ends up in a bad outcome?
  • K_Michael
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    --> @TheDredPriateRoberts
    The point is that chopping a chicken's head off or shooting a cow point blank in the head is less painful than getting shot from thirty or a hundred yards most of the time because the deer won't just die right there usually. 
    If vegans or Alec think that it's worse to kill chickens than the kind of pain these deer go through, they're wrong.

    I'm not saying they don't run away and don't need to be tracked, not sure how you got that from what I said.
    Answer: " Deer basically lay down and die"




  • TheDredPriateRoberts
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    --> @K_Michael
    i.c. I don't think you can quantify pain or feels in animals, even people have different pain thresholds.  We also don't know for certain they process or feel pain like humans since they can't articulate it, we can assume and guess but that's all, hence the word anthropomorphize.  While I think we should do everything we can to minimize potential suffering etc in animals just in case that isn't enough evidence to make me want to stop eating meat.
  • Snoopy
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    --> @K_Michael
    I heard a hunting story once where it was claimed the deer was spooked, ran right into a tree and broke its neck without having to be shot.  The next easiest way to go is probably freezing to death, like not from starving but falling in a stream or something.  Its hard to tell how they process pain.  Other than that, I think the wild would tend to be more brutal than an ethical kill.  They will try to keep going through whatever they face, so anything that just overwhelms them is about as good as can be expected.

    Domesticated animals can have an easier death, but on the other hand the living conditions of bacon you buy from a supermarket could have been pretty inhumane.  There is no easy way to die, and I kind of resent people's problems with killing to the extent that it detracts from living.

  • K_Michael
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    --> @TheDredPriateRoberts
    Animals, especially mammals, have a very similar neurological structure to humans. Humans respond to stimuli. Humans feel pain. Animals respond to stimuli. Animals feel pain. They behave very similarly to humans in the same situations and almost identically to babies. If I shoot a baby in the foot, it will cry. If I shoot a rabbit in the foot, it will make rabbit screaming noises. Based on observation it is reasonable to assume that animals feel pain, not quantifiably, since humans can only judge people's pain based on their own experiences and pain threshold, but in a similar way to your own perception of pain.

    I am not vegan or anything. I don't believe that it's wrong to kill animals and eat them. But I do believe that minimizing pain is the right thing to do.

  • TheDredPriateRoberts
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    --> @K_Michael
    But I do believe that minimizing pain is the right thing to do.
    I do as well and try to only support ethically treated and grown animals.  I DO NOT believe in hunting for sport, just to kill.  Maximum use and benefit should be used from any animal killed.


  • mustardness
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    --> @K_Michael
    But I do believe that minimizing pain is the right thing to do.
    I feel the same way. The early in  a woman's pregnancy the less pain for the fertilized egg..........Hannibal the Cannibal

    ..."The majority of the scientific literature on the subject finds that the brain connections required to feel pain are not formed until at least 24 weeks.

    ....This is, of course, not the first time fishy scientific arguments have been used to support anti-abortion policies. Last August, Missouri Republican Senate candidate Todd Akin ignited a controversy when he stated that victims of “legitimate rape” couldn’t get pregnant because “the female body has ways to try to shut that whole thing down.” The sponsor of the House 20-week ban, Rep. Trent Franks (R-Ariz.), was also criticized last week for arguing in a hearing that the number of pregnancies resulting from rape is “very low.”"....

  • Snoopy
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    --> @mustardness
      Relativity of animal rights on abortion

  • Mopac
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    I'm not a vegan because I love animals, I'm a vegan because I hate plants.


    Thst is why the plants I don't eat get chucked into fires.


    Bwuahahahaha!






  • TheDredPriateRoberts
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    --> @Mopac
    I'm not a vegan because I love animals, I'm a vegan because I hate plants.


    Thst is why the plants I don't eat get chucked into fires.


    Bwuahahahaha!

    now THAT is funny!  thank you, I'm totally going to steal it and use it.



  • sadolite
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    Two things: 1) I don't care that you don't eat meat. There is no reason what so ever to bring it up unless I offer you meat to eat or something that has some form of animal product in it. 2) Don't ever lecture me about eating meat. You are not morally superior because you don't eat meat. I don't care about all the political causes you attach to being vegan anymore than you care about any political causes I care about. Got it? Good. Have a nice day.
  • Greyparrot
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    I am personally appalled at the excessive biomass of insects slaughtered solely to support a vegan lifestyle.
  • TheDredPriateRoberts
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    --> @Greyparrot
    rolf that was good
    I hate how they mess up my windshield too
  • mustardness
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    --> @Greyparrot
    I am personally appalled at the excessive biomass of insects slaughtered solely to support a vegan lifestyle.
    "A question of balance".... Moody Blues

    “Some have to die, so others may live.”

    To live within a standard-of-living that does not cause excessive strain on the ecological environment that sustains us all.

    It is a question of balance.


  • Greyparrot
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    --> @mustardness
    Sucks to be a non human animal.
  • TheDredPriateRoberts
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    --> @Greyparrot
    mustardness;  To live within a standard-of-living that does not cause excessive strain on the ecological environment that sustains us all.

    It is a question of balance. 
    maybe we should, oh I dunno, domesticate animals and raise them as a food source instead of killing animals in the wild, just a thought.
  • Greyparrot
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    --> @TheDredPriateRoberts
    Nah...killing a few billion metric tons of insect biolife is the price of an avocado.
  • TheDredPriateRoberts
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    --> @Greyparrot
    lets not forget the artificial fertilizers, weed and bug killers,  Roundup anyone?  we need more of that stuff in the air, water and ground.
  • Mopac
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    --> @Greyparrot
    Fig trees might require bugs to grow their fruit.




  • Mopac
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    The impression I got from studying Jainism was that a true Jain saint would be someone who goes off into a cave and slowly starves themselves to death.

    That seems to be the logical conclusion of the vegan moralfag route.


  • Christen
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    I never understood the idea of not eating meat. Don't we need a healthy balanced diet? Didn't we used to hunt and kill buffalo for centuries before farming became a thing? http://meatandhealth.redmeatinfo.com/red-meat-and-health-the-facts/eating-a-balanced-diet.aspx
  • Mopac
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    --> @Christen
    I don't eat meat, and neither does my spouse.

    Monastics in the Orthodox Church are usually vegetarian.


    I don't believe it is necessary to eat meat to be healthy.