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@ethang5
You may be conflating revulsion of the act with revulsion of the person because they engage in the act. The first is not bigotry. The second is.
Is Repulsion At The Homosexual Act Bigotry?
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@Stronn
I am not though.
I am not even saying I have these emotions.
If it is involuntary, then the person has no moral judgement to answer for.
Sure. I don't know what that has to do with bigotry, but sure.
So, again, what are we talking about? Are we talking about only the internalized feeling of emotion, or are we including the outward expressions of emotion?Why would we exclude the involuntary action the emotion may cause?
You tell me. Are we talking about only the internalized feeling of emotion (like you said), or are we including the outward expressions of emotion?
And how does expressing the emotion in confidence change the situation?
Once you start expressing these feelings in an intolerant manner, then we can start delving into bigotry territory. Whether or not you express your bigoted feelings in private doesn't make them not bigoted.
If for example, an emotion makes me cry, why would we need to separate the emotion from the crying?
I believe this only really applies to small children, not grown adults.
If the emotion itself does not make one a bigot, how does telling someone about the emotion do that?
Because thinking and acting are two different things. Thinking about killing someone isn't illegal. Telling someone you are going to kill them can be.
Supose that someone tells me they are gay.
Assuming I am straight and I find gay sex repulsive I can respond in either of two ways:
1 - "Ugh! That's not for me! Still, it takes all sorts, let's have a beer."
2 - "Ugh! That is perverted and disgusting and you should be ashamed of yourself - never come near me again".
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@keithprosser
Really? Just those two ways? What about...
3 - "Good for you, man."
4 - *shrug*
Why do liberals who respond moderately never seem to count.
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@drafterman
If it is involuntary, then the person has no moral judgement to answer for.
>Sure. I don't know what that has to do with bigotry, but sure.
I don't either, but you're the one asking for it.
So, again, what are we talking about? Are we talking about only the internalized feeling of emotion, or are we including the outward expressions of emotion?Why would we exclude the involuntary action the emotion may cause?
>You tell me.
Stop being silly. You're the one claiming separation.
>Are we talking about only the internalized feeling of emotion (like you said), or are we including the outward expressions of emotion?
I've answered you several times. Repeating the question will not give you the answer you like.
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@drafterman
And how does expressing the emotion in confidence change the situation?
>Once you start expressing these feelings in an intolerant manner, then we can start delving into bigotry territory.
How do you tell someone, "It made me cry" in an "intolerant" manner? And who decides intolerant?
>Whether or not you express your bigoted feelings in private doesn't make them not bigoted.
Ah. The feelings are now bigoted eh? My god, you lefties are predictable.
If for example, an emotion makes me cry, why would we need to separate the emotion from the crying?
>I believe this only really applies to small children, not grown adults.
When you're ready to tell me why, I'll listen.
If the emotion itself does not make one a bigot, how does telling someone about the emotion do that?
Because thinking and acting are two different things. Thinking about killing someone isn't illegal. Telling someone you are going to kill them can be.
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@drafterman
Ah, you are looking for illegalities, not immoralities. You are confused. Telling someone you are going to kill them is not expressing an emotion, that is expressing an intention.
Telling about how one felt cannot be illegal, not in any country with the rule of law anyway. And I fail to see how an emotion that doesn't make one a bigot, can suddenly make one a bigot simply when the person says, "I had so and so emotion".
If your point is that a bigot can also have the same emotion, no one has contradicted that. I suspect you do not personally believe anyone can feel revulsion at the homosexual act and not also be a bigot.
Can you deny that?
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@Castin
They do more than you know.
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@drafterman
I was thinking about possible reponses by people who felt revulsion about gay sex.
1 - "Ugh! That's not for me! Still, it takes all sorts, let's have a beer."2 - "Ugh! That is perverted and disgusting and you should be ashamed of yourself - never come near me again".
The first repsonse is itended as typical of someone who is disgusted by the act of gay sex but is not bigoted.
The second repose is itended as typical of someoe who is disgusted by the act of gay sex ads bigoted.
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@keithprosser
Ah, fair enough.
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@ethang5
How do you tell someone, "It made me cry" in an "intolerant" manner? And who decides intolerant?
No one "decides" it. It is intolerant if it meets the definition of intolerant.
Ah. The feelings are now bigoted eh?
Nope, I was talking about the specific expressions of feelings that you brought up (ranting to your wife). This is why I came into this conversation worried about a slippery slope. You had already talked about expressing your revulsion (post #8) before I even came into this conversation (post #12). Though you claim only to be talking about the feeling, you keep switching over to expressions. It was you who brought up things like involuntary responses. It was you who brought up voluntary expressions in private.
So if this isn't about expressions, then why do you keep bringing up specific examples of expressions and asking questions about them? I've already answered the question regarding only the emotional state, so what more is there to talk about if we aren't talking about the expressions?
Ah, you are looking for illegalities, not immoralities.
I'm looking for neither. I'm making neither a legal nor moral judgement here.
You are confused. Telling someone you are going to kill them is not expressing an emotion, that is expressing an intention.
I disagree. The desire to kill someone is an emotional state.
Telling about how one felt cannot be illegal, not in any country with the rule of law anyway. And I fail to see how an emotion that doesn't make one a bigot, can suddenly make one a bigot simply when the person says, "I had so and so emotion".
The same way thinking something unkind about a person doesn't make you mean. Telling it to their face can, however.
If your point is that a bigot can also have the same emotion, no one has contradicted that. I suspect you do not personally believe anyone can feel revulsion at the homosexual act and not also be a bigot.Can you deny that?
Sure. I already said having the internal feeling only doesn't make you a bigot: "I don't think a passive feeling makes a person a bigot." (Post #29)
Whether or not you express your bigoted feelings in private doesn't make them not bigoted.
Ah. The feelings are now bigoted eh?
Nope...
You said "bigoted feelings". Your bias is showing.
I was talking about the specific expressions of feelings that you brought up (ranting to your wife).
First you said I was "sneaking", now it's "ranting". You liberal filter simply changes the words as you read them huh?
You are confused. Telling someone you are going to kill them is not expressing an emotion, that is expressing an intention.
I disagree. The desire to kill someone is an emotional state.
and telling them is expressing an intention. Desires cannot be illegal.
Thinking about killing someone isn't illegal. Telling someone you are going to kill them can be.
Ah, you are looking for illegalities, not immoralities. You are confused.
I'm looking for neither.
You brought up illegalities.
So if this isn't about expressions, then why do you keep bringing up specific examples of expressions and asking questions about them?
You are the one bringing it up. Expressions go with emotions. It is silly to try to separate them.
you keep switching over to expressions.
They aren't separate. And your use of the word "switching" doesn't make it so.
so what more is there to talk about if we aren't talking about the expressions?
You tell me. You're the one who keeps responding with empty posts.
I already said having the internal feeling only...
Feelings always have a physiological response.
I don't think a passive feeling makes a person a bigot.
I don't believe you. Remembering bringing as "sneaking" and telling as "ranting" betray you. You are a politically correct SJW who thinks he's stumbled on a bigot.
I think the defining characteristic of a bigot is that they are intolerant. Loads of people have negative feelings about gay sex - I know many men who wouldn't watch male gay porn if you paid them. But I wouldn't call a bloke a bigot because he doesn't enjoy gay porn.
Ethang say he gets called a bigot when he expresses disgust at homosexuality. I wonder what it is that he says and how he says it!
I wonder if this thread is not so much about homophobic bigotry as about Ethang wanting to having a dig at 'lefties' being too keen to jump on anything even slightly PC?
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@keithprosser
You saw it here. I did not express disgust myself but spoke about just someone expressing disgust and got insulted and called a homophone and a bigot. Why are you wondering?Ethang say he gets called a bigot when he expresses disgust at homosexuality. I wonder what it is that he says and how he says it!
I wonder if this thread is not so much about homophobic bigotry as about Ethang wanting to having a dig at 'lefties' being too keen to jump on anything even slightly PC?
And this is the smarmy way you argue. "Wondering". Innuendo filled implications. Exhibit C.
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@ethang5
You saw it here. I did not express disgust myself but spoke about just someone expressing disgust and got insulted and called a homophone and a bigot. Why are you wondering?
I'm wondering because there is no detail there. I assume 'just someone' did not say 'I feel revulsion about gay sex' out of the blue to some other person who then immediately replied 'You are a homophone and a bigot', (meaning homophobe, I expect). What were the actual words used, and with what tone of voice?
There is a difference between saying 'gay sex is disgusting' and saying 'gay sex is disgusting to me'.
I'd guess most straight males are a bit queasy about gay sex, but not every straight male is a bigot.
What is a homosexual act? Is it love? Is it care? What is this homosexual act that you are repulsed by?
74 days later
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@keithprosser
There is a difference between saying 'gay sex is disgusting' and saying 'gay sex is disgusting to me'.
What's the difference? Wouldn't anyone assume the second at the first?
I'd guess most straight males are a bit queasy about gay sex, but not every straight male is a bigot.
Queasy at what? Would a bigot also be queasy?
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@ethang5
My exeprience is that most blokes enjoy porn, even if only very light porn like a photo of Pamela Anderson in a skimpy bikini. But they don't like pictures of 2 guys passionatly kissing and avoid 'gay porn' completely.Queasy at what? Would a bigot also be queasy?
I woudn't call a bloke a bigot just because he doesn't enjoy gay porn. I'd say what make someone a bigot is not their attitude toward gay porn; it's their attitude towards people who do enjoy gay porn.
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@keithprosser
I still don't get it.
If I think a behavior is disgusting, am I not likely to be repulsed by people who voluntarily engage in that behavior?
I would give you examples except for the simpletons who will interpret them as, "are you comparing homosexuality to............!?!?
I don't belive in 'thought-crime'. I can well imagine someone who is disgusted by the idea of gay sex but makes every effort to be tolerant; I would not call such a person a bigot. To me a bigot is intolerant and unreasonably resistant to hearing the other side. I am also sure 'bigot' is used more freely and loosely - but not by me.
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@keithprosser
Seems reasonable.I can well imagine someone who is disgusted by the idea of gay sex but makes every effort to be tolerant; I would not call such a person a bigot.
To me a bigot is intolerant and unreasonably resistant to hearing the other side.OK, but why he has to listen to the other side escapes me. Especially when he finds it disgusting.
But what about when the guy has a moral objection, are you asking him to be tolerant of immorality? Are you tolerant of what you find offends your moral judgement?
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@ethang5
I'd say we humans have a tendency to hate 'outsiders', people who are 'not like us'. Bigots don't use their brains to overcome that primitive tribal instinct - they use their brains to rationalise and justify their hate.
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@keithprosser
what about when the guy has a moral objection, are you asking him to be tolerant of immorality? Are you tolerant of what you find offends your moral judgement?
I'd say we humans have a tendency to hate 'outsiders', people who are 'not like us'. Bigots don't use their brains to overcome that primitive tribal instinct - they use their brains to rationalise and justify their hate.
You seem to be saying that bigotry is a primitive tribal instinct. But then you say evolution has wired us to be altruistic. Seems contradictory.
You dodged my question too, but that's ok. Par for the course.
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@ethang5
what about when the guy has a moral objection, are you asking him to be tolerant of immorality? Are you tolerant of what you find offends your moral judgement?
My answer was "Bigots don't use their brains to overcome that primitive tribal instinct - they use their brains to rationalise and justify their hate."
You seem to be saying that bigotry is a primitive tribal instinct. But then you say evolution has wired us to be altruistic. Seems contradictory.
Evolution has wired us up with a very mess system! One of its features seems to be that we tend to be more altruistic towards those closely related to us and rather less nice so strangers.
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@keithprosser
My answer was "Bigots don't use their brains to overcome that primitive tribal instinct - they use their brains to rationalise and justify their hate."
Check. People with moral judgements are bigots. Very progressive point of view.
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@ethang5
I said "Bigots don't use their brains to overcome that primitive tribal instinct."
You said: "People with moral judgements are bigots"
Check mate.
Then let's take a closer look at what you actually said, shall we?
You said,
To me a bigot is intolerant and unreasonably resistant to hearing the other side.
So I ask,
...what about when the guy has a moral objection, are you asking him to be tolerant of immorality?
Bigots don't use their brains to overcome that primitive tribal instinct - they use their brains to rationalise and justify their hate.
You dodged my question too, but that's ok. Par for the course.
My answer was "Bigots don't use their brains to overcome that primitive tribal instinct - they use their brains to rationalise and justify their hate."
Check. People with moral judgements are bigots.
I said "Bigots don't use their brains to overcome that primitive tribal instinct."
At a question that asked, "what about when the guy has a moral objection? Your "answer" assumed that people with moral objections are bigots.
Which is why I correctly said: "You think people with moral judgements are bigots."
I asked about people with moral objections and you spoke about bigots, insisting that was your answer. Now, if you don't think people with moral objections are bigots, then your answer is pretty dishonest.
Don't worry, I won't press you on it. You'd just continue speaking out both sides of your mouth.
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@ethang5
So, why are you watching homosexuals having sex? Are you watching porn or something? It you're repulsed, why do you keep watching?2. Or can a person be repulsed (by the act, not the person) and not be a bigot at all?3. Is repulsion at the homosexual act a learned response or is it biological?4. If a man is repulsed at the sexual act between two men, but feels attracted at the sexual act between two women, is that bigotry?