Those Battling 45,000 Denominations

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06.04.2019 04:05PM

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@Mopac

There are cultic practices in a religion. The religion itself is not a cult.

Are 'cultic' practices those that are of or a like a cult? Because that's how adjectives work, and would then indicate that your religion and a cult do not, in fact, have any functional differences. You have once again done no work in differentiating, except to say they're different. Not an argument or useful in terms of discussion. Nonetheless, if your religion condones or prescribes cultic practices, as you say your liturgy is (again, functionally this is not different than a mass, it's a gathering of followers at some interval in some place deemed holy for some reason, right?), then...

You don't understand our religion. You equate the cult with the religion itself.

...sounds like you're saying "We're not a cult, we do things that cults WOULD do, but we're not one. Why don't you understand why we're not one?"

The answer is because you've not explained, or even attempted to explain, the difference. EXPLAINING is different than ASSERTING. Want another go?

Would you or would you not be comfortable with someone saying "That group there is the Antioch cult"?

#62

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Posts: 3,179

06.04.2019 04:20PM

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@Mopac

can you give me an example of something you might be at variance with?

No.

Does everyone in the orthodox church agree on the doctrine of eternal security (or OSAS)?

This is a Calvinist teaching, and we have never had such doctrine.

This important question is whether or not it is biblical teaching?

Mopac, does God save or do we save ourselves? Is salvation monergistic or synergistic? Do we have a hand in saving ourselves (i.e., part of it depends on God and part on us)?

If God saves you and gives you eternal salvation will He not guard what He has given you against that day? Will He transform your heart and spirit?

Did Jesus not come to save His people from their sin?

Matthew 1:21
21 She will bear a Son; and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins.”

If He will save them then He is completely capable of doing so. It is Him doing the action of saving, not you. Thus, His death accomplished salvation for those He came to save or else it is possible that no one will be saved.

Hebrews 7:25

Therefore He is able also to save forever those who draw near to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them.

The question becomes whether or not we have truly trusted in Him since He is able to save forever those who draw near to Him since He always lives to intercede for them. His sacrifice is enough to secure our salvation. Do you believe this?

Hebrews 9

15 For this reason He is the mediator of a new covenant, so that, since a death has taken place for the redemption of the transgressions that were committed under the first covenant, those who have been called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance. 16 For where a covenant is, there must of necessity be the death of the one who made it. 17 For a covenant is valid only when men are dead, for it is never in force while the one who made it lives. 18 Therefore even the first covenant was not inaugurated without blood.

24 For Christ did not enter a holy place made with hands, a mere copy of the true one, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us; 25 nor was it that He would offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the holy place year by year with blood that is not his own. 26 Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself. 27 And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment, 28 so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him.

So His one offering is acceptable to God for sin for those who believe, truly believe in who He is and what He has done. Thus, we can't boast in what we do. We do not have a part in saving ourselves. He did it, not us.

Ephesians 2:8-10 (NASB)

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

If it is by His grace and a gift from God then salvation is not a result of our work or merit in any way. It depends on another - Jesus Christ, and we can't boast in ourselves in any way. If we are His workmanship then again, it is God who is working our salvation in us.

Are you saying there are exceptions within the evangelical/protestant churches?

Sure, there are some who know God. Doesn't change the fact that they aren't with the Christian church. They have an incomplete faith.

#63

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Posts: 8,050

06.04.2019 04:31PM

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@ludofl3x

Ok mr know it all, since you lnow so much, I suppose you have nothing to learn from me.

#64

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06.04.2019 04:35PM

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@Mopac

You haven't even attempted to answer any question, so it kinda sounds like you realize you don't have anything usable to impart.

#65

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06.04.2019 04:39PM

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@Mopac

A cult is formalized religious veneration.

You have words in a line that have absolutely no meaning in that form. I'd ask you to try again but you wouldn't understand.

#66

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Posts: 4,959

06.04.2019 04:45PM

Do we have a hand in saving ourselves

From what?

Really shit frighten golfer, just too many questions neither you nor your imaginary friend have answers to. Poor little liar.

Still quoting the meaningless drivel written by your IPSS, they're being replaced.

#67

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Posts: 8,050

06.04.2019 04:48PM

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@PGA2.0

Oh we certainly don't believe we save ourselves. It is God who does the saving.

Imagine you are drowning and Jesus holds out his hand to lift you from the water. You have to grab for his hand. You can choose to smack his hand away. God respects our free will.

So we do have a part to play. The church elaborates this in the doctrine of synergy.

We also don't really look at salvation as a one time event in life, but something to work out our entire life. There is no discipleship without discipline.

Once saved always saved is a Calvinist doctrine that the church has never taught.

I don't believe Calvin even believed in free will.

#68

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Posts: 8,050

06.04.2019 04:52PM

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@ludofl3x

No, i just think trying to teach someone who thinks they know better and isn't willing to be corrected is a waste of time.

#69

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06.04.2019 09:35PM

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@Mopac

Oh we certainly don't believe we save ourselves. It is God who does the saving.

Imagine you are drowning and Jesus holds out his hand to lift you from the water. You have to grab for his hand. You can choose to smack his hand away. God respects our free will.

So we do have a part to play. The church elaborates this in the doctrine of synergy.

Well, this brings up an interesting point as highlighted by John Owen's and expanded upon by James White in his article titled, "Was Anyone Saved at the Cross?" Here is the relevant points:

Many who believe in a “universal” or non-specific atonement, assert that while Christ died for all, His atonement is only effective for those who believe. We shall discuss the fact that faith itself is the gift of God, given only to the elect of God, in the next chapter. But for now, we defer to the great Puritan writer, John Owen, in answering this question:

To which I may add this dilemma to our Universalists:—God imposed his wrath due unto, and Christ underwent the pains of hell for, either all the sins of all men, or all the sins of some men, or some sins of all men. If the last, some sins of all men, then have all men some sins to answer for, and so shall no man be saved; for if God enter into judgment with us, though it were with all mankind for one sin, no flesh should be justified in his sight: “If the LORD should mark iniquities, who should stand?” Ps. cxxx. 3….If the second, that is it which we affirm, that Christ in their stead and room suffered for all the sins of all the elect in the world. If the first, why, then are not all freed from the punishment of all their sins? You will say, “Because of their unbelief; they will not believe.” But this unbelief, is it a sin, or not? If not, why should they be punished for it? If it be, then Christ underwent the punishment due to it, or not. If so, then why must that hinder them more than their other sins for which he died from partaking of the fruit of his death? If he did not, then he did not die for all their sins. Let them choose which part they will. (John Owen, The Death of Death in the Death of Christ, (London: Banner of Truth Trust, 1985) pp. 61-62.)

So, here are your options:

1. Jesus died for all the sins of all humanity. Therefore all humanity is saved.

2. Jesus died for all the sins of some humans. Therefore some humans are said.

3. Jesus died for some of the sins of all humanity.

Which approach do you take, 1,2, or 3?

If you pose #1, I will ask you does the Bible teach that all humanity is saved?

If you pose #3, I ask you if we will be guilty before God for the sins He did not die for? If so, then what is our need for a Savior who could not save us? His perfect life lived on behalf of the believer was not enough. Do you believe that? The OT teaches a substitutionary atonement. So does the NT. He atoned for those who believe and put their trust in Him. Thus, once saved by God will He not keep His promise and guarantee?

If you pose 2, then His atonement accomplished what it set out to do. Thus, once saved always saved!

#70

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06.04.2019 09:41PM

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@Mopac

We also don't really look at salvation as a one time event in life, but something to work out our entire life. There is no discipleship without discipline.

We work out our salvation with fear and trembling, yes. We work it out so that we understand it and understand what God has done for it is the Lord at work in us.

Philippians 2:11-13 (NASB)
11 and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
12 So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling; 13 for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.

Thus God is at work in the lives of believers and if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ he does not belong to Him.

Romans 8:9

However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.

So, are you saying the Jesus needs to die over and over again like in the OT sacrifice to secure our salvation? That is not what the Bible teaches.

Romans 6:10

For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God.

1 Peter 3:18

For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit;

Hebrews 9:11-12, 13-15,

11 But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things to come, He entered through the greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this creation; 12 and not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, He entered the holy place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption...14 how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? 15 For this reason He is the mediator of a new covenant, so that, since a death has taken place for the redemption of the transgressions that were committed under the first covenant, those who have been called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance...28 so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him.

So Jesus offered Himself once for the sins of the believer. He obtained eternal redemption, something the OT sacrifice on behalf of the people could never do. It had to be brought year after year to atone for the sins of the nation. Thus it is what He did, not anything you can do you achieve salvation.

Once saved always saved is a Calvinist doctrine that the church has never taught.

I will argue that the NT teaches it. That is why the New Covenant is so much superior to the Old Covenant, as explained constantly in Hebrews and throughout the NT. Jesus is the perfect sacrifice. Animals were only a substitute until the perfect sacrifice could be made, then the old disappeared and was abolished in AD 70.

Hebrews 8:13

13 When He said, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear.

I don't believe Calvin even believed in free will.

Not in the sense that your will is free from influence and worldview bias like Adam's was. Thus, he was the "federal head" of humanity. He represented us. He could choose to sin or he could choose not to sin. You cannot choose not to sin. Do you believe that? If so try not to lie for a week, Try not to steal, to covet, to murder (as Jesus defined the anger against a brother), to commit adultery even in your thoughts and lusting, to honour your parents, and most importantly, to honour and love God will all your heart and put nothing above or before Him. Try it for a week and see how you do. Thus your will is not free, it is in bondage to whatever controls you. Even though you have a volition - you choose - you will not choose God without His Word, His Spirit, His Son and His influence in your life. Many, many reject the Son and therefore do not have the Father.

Please feel free to argue any of my points above.

#71

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06.04.2019 09:48PM

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@PGA2.0

It is written, "we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe."

It is also written "this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent."

It is also written "For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works."

Also, to be totally frank, John Calvin was a heretic.

#72

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06.04.2019 10:14PM

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@Mopac

It is written, "we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe."

How is the word "all" used in this passage? Is it without distinction or every kind of man? Or does "all" mean rich men, poor men, tall men, short men, free men, enslaved men, or every single man without distinction?

Galatians 3:28

There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

Thus, the "all" here does not speak of everyone without distinction, meaning the whole of humanity. There is a distinction in who is saved - all who believe regardless of whether they are male or female, free or slave, rich or poor, Jew or Gentile.

It is also written "this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent."

And yet many do not know Him as Lord and Savior. Notice also that it say "this IS eternal life."

It is also written "For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works."

I believe He already came but what is your point with this verse? Is it the underlined?

Ephesians 2:8-10 (NASB)
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

The good works come after salvation, not before. God gives the believer a new nature, one that is no longer hostile to Him. Salvation is not of yourself, it is a gift of God, not a result of works.

As mentioned in one of my last couple of posts, Philippians 2:12-13 says:

12 So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling; 13 for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.

Thus, there is no boasting there. If is all of God as He works in you, not of man.

Also, to be totally frank, John Calvin was a heretic.

A heretic to the Roman Catholic Church that was teaching all kinds of unbiblical and false doctrines at the time. I would be happy to deal with the five points of Calvinism (TULIP) on another thread as to whether they are biblical or not.

#73

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06.04.2019 10:17PM

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@PGA2.0

I'm not really disputing anything in your second post.

But the idea that at a moment in time you are saved and then from that point on you can't fall away is not only not what the church teaches but is even kind of silly. That is always how I was taught once saved always saved.

#74

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06.04.2019 10:21PM

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@PGA2.0

I am not Roman Catholic, I am Orthodox.

The church has always taught synergism.

#75

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06.04.2019 10:26PM

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@Mopac

I'm not really disputing anything in your second post.

But the idea that at a moment in time you are saved and then from that point on you can't fall away is not only not what the church teaches but is even kind of silly. That is always how I was taught once saved always saved.

I would argue that if you "fall away" and deny Jesus that you were not truly saved, just made a profession that was not sincere. I would argue that when you repent and turn God gives you the Spirit of truth as a seal and guarantee of your eternal salvation.

2 Corinthians 1:22

who also sealed us and gave us the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge.

Ephesians 1:13

In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

Thus, the believer is sealed and God has promised, the same God who cannot lie.

Ephesians 4:30

Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

#76

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06.04.2019 10:34PM

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@PGA2.0

I would argue that if you "fall away" and deny Jesus that you were not truly saved, just made a profession that was not sincere. I would argue that when you repent and turn God gives you the Spirit of truth as a seal and guarantee of your eternal salvation.

I can maybe go with that.

#77

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Posts: 3,179

06.04.2019 10:35PM

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@Mopac

I am not Roman Catholic, I am Orthodox.

I was pointing out who labelled Calvin a heretic, not referencing you. I somewhat understand the difference between Roman Catholic and Orthodox.

The church has always taught synergism.

Your church which you believe is the true universal church, just like Roman Catholicism believes it applies to them. I also believe in the universal church as those who were bought with a price by the Lord Jesus Christ and sanctified by Him through the Spirit. So, we perhaps have three different views present on some issues. We have the RC view, the Orthodox view and a non-denominational view held by those who see a Person as Savior, not a church. The church as the body applies to those who are in Christ Jesus, those who identify our lives in His and place their trust in Him for salvation. That could include those in all three churches. Our object of faith is in Jesus Christ and a right understanding of who He is and what He has done on our behalf.

#78

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06.04.2019 10:55PM

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@PGA2.0

We would certainly.say the same thing about Jesus being the savior.

But ours is the church founded by Jesus and descended from the apostles. Your church is not older than 500 years, in all likelyhood younger, and it is at variance with the church fathers who all professed One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church.

Denominationalism or nondenominationalism(really the same thing in tat they deny the church) is a recent development that has no precedent in the ancient church.

#79

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06.04.2019 11:44PM

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@Mopac

We would certainly.say the same thing about Jesus being the savior.

But ours is the church founded by Jesus and descended from the apostles. Your church is not older than 500 years, in all likelyhood younger, and it is at variance with the church fathers who all professed One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church.

I agree with that definition but I do not see Christians as a building but a people who believe in Jesus Christ.

What is/are the criteria/criterion to be a Christian?

Denominationalism or nondenominationalism(really the same thing in tat they deny the church) is a recent development that has no precedent in the ancient church.

I do not deny the church as the body of believers. Our rule of faith is God's word alone - sola scriptura. Anything that deviates is not Christian. You say you trace your church back to the Apostles. So do the RC's.

#80

Goldtop

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Goldtop

06.05.2019 01:35AM

All atheists talk about is how they hate organized religion. And theists.

This is classic, after Christianity has bullied and kicked others around for 20 centuries, those people are finally getting fed up and not taking it anymore and theists are all getting their panties tied in knots and deciding we're all hateful bigots and persecutors. Oh boo fucking hoo witchypoo. Save your rhetoric for someone who gives a flying fuck.

#81

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06.05.2019 01:41AM

I agree with that definition but I do not see Christians as a building but a people who believe in Jesus Christ.

We don't see it as a building either, for Christc said, "the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him."

What is/are the criteria/criterion to be a Christian?

To become an Orthodox Christian you must go through a period of catechisis where you are educated in the faith. To be baptized and Chrismated you need someone to sponsor you. If you have already been properly baptized in the name of the father, son, and holy spirit, you only need to be chrismated because your baptism is considered valid. By this point, you should already know how to be a disciple of Jesus.

I do not deny the church as the body of believers. Our rule of faith is God's word alone - sola scriptura.

Yet the scriptures themselves point to Jesus Christ as being God's Word. The church wrote the scriptures, and the church decided which scriptures would constitute the New Testament hundreds of years after the events of The New Testament. The church did not wait around for hundreds of years before the bible was canonized. On that note, the bible that you use isn't even the bible that the church uses, because the old testament you use is not the septuigant. Since you use the Jesus denying Jewish canon you miss out on some obvious prophecies such as...

"We are esteemed of him as counterfeits: he abstaineth from our ways as from filthiness: he pronounceth the end of the just to be blessed, and maketh his boast that God is his father. Let us see if his words be true: and let us prove what shall happen in the end of him. For if the just man be the son of God, he will help him, and deliver him from the hand of his enemies. Let us examine him with despitefulness and torture, that we may know his meekness, and prove his patience. Let us condemn him with a shameful death: for by his own saying he shall be respected."

Holy orders were established by the apostles. Titus was a bishop of Crete. Timothy a bishop of Ephesus. The New Testament Canon we all use today is identical to the list suggested by Saint Athanasius, bishop of Alexandria.

This is The Orthodox Catholic Church, the church of Christ.

You say you trace your church back to the Apostles. So do the RC's.

The Roman Catholic Church broke away from The Orthodox Catholic Church. They made 2 major errors.

1. The false doctrine of Papal Supremacy.

2. They altered the Nicene Creed which on multiple occasions the ecumenical councils of the church rulled would lead to anathema or a curse.

The Latin church has corrupted the faith.

So The Roman Catholic Church inherited that apostolic succession from Orthodoxy, because they used to be Orthodox. However, they are in error and church history proves this.

#82

secularmerlin

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secularmerlin

06.05.2019 12:50PM

-->Polytheist-Witch

I wasn't talking you, piss off.

I love you too sugarmouth.

#83

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06.07.2019 04:20AM

@golfer

You don't place your trust in Jesus, you place your trust in the IPSS that wrote your book of fiction. What did god say in the garden of eden?

#84

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06.07.2019 04:45AM

golfer

This important question is whether or not it is biblical teaching?

This important question is whether or not it is biblical teaching?

You mean the teachings of the IPSS? Why don't you say so?

7 days later

Topic's author

#85

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Posts: 1,044

06.14.2019 05:26PM

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@secularmerlin

the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion
-John Adams

This was addressed to a Muslim nation concerned that they would experience the same conflicts they had with European theocracies. This was not a State Of The Union Address explaining to the western world, present and future that we're not a Christian nation. The problem with using quotes from the founding fathers is they get taken completely out of context in the modern era.

Religious based discrimination? I'm assuming that you're not talking about discrimination towards Christianity, so I'm assuming that you're
referring to phantom discrimination perpetrated by Christians against other religions.
I am talking about any discrimination of any kind based on a persins religion or lack thereof.

I'm sure you have something specific in mind.

You are fixated on Christianity here. I mean no religious legislation. This applies equally to all religions.

Any examples?

#86

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06.14.2019 05:36PM

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@RoderickSpode

The problem with using quotes from the founding fathers is they get taken completely out of context in the modern era.

Slippery slope. Could not the same be said about the bible? Let's solve this issue: please give me the clause in the constitution that refers to where we're a Christian nation. One reference to the Christian god will suffice.

Hmmm...nothing, huh? Maybe it's in the bill of rights. Any references to any god there?

This is awkward. How about the Declaration of Independence...oh, here it is. One reference. To...'Nature's God." Why didn't they write the Christian god if they intended to create a Christian nation? They do refer to a Creator...is that specific enough to distinguish between, say, Jesus and Ra?

These are the founding documents of the country, and none of them refer to anything Christian...it seems a strange way to create a Christian nation, doesn't it?

#87

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Posts: 8,050

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Apotheosis_of_Washington

06.14.2019 05:54PM

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@ludofl3x

@RoderickSpode

Really though, this is what I think about The United States being a "Christian nation".

Topic's author

#88

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06.14.2019 05:59PM

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@secularmerlin

The rest of your comments lead me to conclude that you believe I go to a church where we're just about on the fringe of rioting.
Wow you are just full of straw man today. Thevtruth is that many religions including some christian denominations can and have used their influence to cober up criminal activities such as child abuse. If this does Not apply to your church then good for you but no one accused your church of anything. I am just giving guidelines here for how it is and is not ok to practice religion.

This I believe is what prompted my statement.

so long as your cult organizes peacefully does not expect their beliefs to form legostlation and they do not use their faith as an excuse to practice criminality cult on brother.

This whole conversation is about how I'm in a cult, and you're not. Even though there was no initial suggestion that you are. For some reason this is

important to you. And yes, I know you're referring to the Catholic church, but your playing innocent here is not going to work. While you may be

referring specifically to the Catholic church, you're equating my church to the Catholic church. You weren't calling my church a church. You were

calling it a cult.

Wow seems like your the one with a negative view on cults. To be fair many religions/cults can be dangerous but even if we follow your definition the fact that a religion is not a world religion does not automatically make it dangerous just like being a major world religion doesn't stop a religion from being dangerous. That is largely determined by the practitioners not the belief.

I'm not discerning any particular fairness here. Mostly more double-talk.

For some reason you want to make sure it's clear that I'm in a cult/religion
more that I don't really see the difference and your not doing a very good job of explaining it.

Would you agree that The American Atheists, for instance (an atheist org) is a cult?

#89

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06.14.2019 06:02PM

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@RoderickSpode

Can you define the difference between a cult and a legitimate religion? That'd help. Generally, isn't worship involved in a cult?

Topic's author

#90

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