Why Pride Matters

Author: bsh1 ,

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  • bsh1
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    There has been an unsettling argument made in these forums that Pride Month is somehow based on an unjustifiable premise. In other words, since straight people shouldn't take pride in their heterosexuality, neither should gay people take pride in their homosexuality. More nuanced versions of this argument might claim that the fact that these orientations were assigned at birth--and are thus unchosen--render them not worth celebrating.

    This argument, while popular in some quarters, is ill-informed. It comes from a place of ignorance or strawmanning that is rooted in attitudes of privilege, a lack of critical analysis, and/or, more charitably, misunderstanding. The strawman on which the entire argument rests is that Pride is a celebration of homosexuality. In fact, Pride is not a celebration of homosexuality, but of something related, yet far more consequential.

    LGBTQ+ people have faced historic discrimination across the globe. We were persecuted by Nazis, lynched in the American South, and stoned to death in the Middle East. In many places, being gay still carries the death sentence. Even where being LGBTQ+ is not an executable offense, gay people may face official and unofficial persecution. Gay people leaving bars at night may be victims of gay bashing assaults or murders. Across the US, it is legal to fire an employee simply for being gay. In dozens of countries, we are denied access to civil unions and marriage. We may face life imprisonment for such arcane crimes as "carnal knowledge against the order of nature." We may be denied the ability to adopt or we may feel the torture of being rejected by the family we love for being something we did not choose to be. 

    In the face of such everyday oppression, gay people have formed a sense of community, united in our struggle for basic human rights and respect. From the Stonewall Riots to Obergefell, gay people in the US and around the world have fought together for the attainment of the fundamental dignities that we are owed. And through this joint endeavor, we have gained solidarity.

    Pride is a Celebration of our solidarity as a community. It is a celebration of all the battles (win or lose), of all the martyrs and heroes who fought for our equality, of all the successes and defeats that paved the way for equality, and for the sense of shared identity that we have forged through centuries of fighting to be recognized as equal persons in the sight of law and public morality.

    Pride is also a message of solidarity sent out to all those still fighting oppression. This message is twofold. First, Pride is an act of performativity which enacts a narrative of value for all those people who ask themselves, like I once did, "am I a monster because I am gay? Am I a freak? Am I worthless?" Suicide is a leading cause of death within the LGBTQ+ community, and for all those struggling with depression as they confront their orientations and identities, Pride is a message of hope. It tells them that life can--and does--get better. Pride is not a celebration of homosexuality, but it is a reaffirmation of our human worth notwithstanding our homosexuality. It is a reminder to those depressed kids just starting to navigate their feelings that they are not less human because they are gay.

    Second, Pride is clarion call to all those around the world who cannot imagine their own countries coming to accept them as equal and valuable persons. To them, it communicates that the gay community is strong, vibrant, and unified in our commitment to keep on fighting, to keep on the rainbow train to victory. We will not be silent. We will not go away. We will not shut up. We will not stop resisting. We will press on with our message of love, acceptance, and togetherness. We will put on a spectacle to be a counterpoint the hate and prejudice so many of us face.

    Pride then is both a celebration of the LGBTQ+ community and a rallying cry for that community to keep on fighting. The ignorance of those who critique it as a celebration of homosexuality itself is revealed by the very utterance by which those critics present their argument. Pride is not about homosexuality itself. It is about having Pride in how far we have come, in what we have achieved, in the community we have, and in the humanity we all share, irrespective of our orientations and identities.

  • RationalMadman
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    No, you're the one strawmanning and who is ignorant. Mod or not, you're not entitled to be proud of who gets your cock hard or heart fluttering. That's your taste and I have mine and so does everyone else. It's nothing to be proud or ashamed of, you are what you are. You didn't earn your sexuality, it isn't an achievement.
  • RationalMadman
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    If you really want to fight oppression, stop pretending Sharia law and Islamic regimes of most kinds, as well as Christian-based nations like Uganda and Russia and most religious states, are okay. Seek to make the world more Pagan and/or atheist and celebrate that it is stopping to be idiotically regimented and with brutal morality that oppresses and enslaves.

    Once you start speaking against vile ideologies, I'll start to consider you a true 'gay warrior who is fighting oppression'.

    Debate against it, prove them wrong.

    Being gay isn't something you earned, you didn't achieve your homosexuality. What have you done to alleviate oppression?
  • RationalMadman
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    --> @bsh1
    What most of us got annoyed by was you asking us to have rainbow pictures or gay-themed images for a whole month. We're not all gay here, we have 'pride' in our heterosexuality etc.
  • SupaDudz
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    @RM

    This is the truest thing you said
  • SupaDudz
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    No one should feel proud of their sexuality, nor should they feel ashamed. Asking us to flags up for sexuality and feel pride for it. If a straight male put a flag for pride in being straight, we would be SO EVIL.

    Its ok to be gay or straight, you should not be ashamed or proud. It is just you
  • Ramshutu
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    --> @SupaDudz
    For multiple thousands of years, homosexuals, the transgender and other human beings that all fall under the large umbrella and spectrum of what is human sexuality were branded deviants, stoned, shot, tortured, vilified, forced to conform; they are currently still being arrested and tortured in multiple countries, and even to this day in many countries where homosexuality and gay marriage are full enshrined in law - lgbtq are still the victim of violence, hatred, bigotry, hysteria and discrimination.

    Pride is not really an expression of pride at who gives you an erection. Though it is indirectly part of it.

    Pride is mostly an expression that you see nothing wrong in being yourself and expressing who you are despite the entire weight of society over the last two millennia emphatically and violently indicating otherwise.


  • Ramshutu
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    --> @bsh1
    Incidentally, I went to the 2017 Toronto Pride parade, and had my favorited “faith in humanity restored” moment:

    I was standing in between a group of Asian  students, and a group of women wifh pushchairs in Burkas, and a group of Indian/Pakistanis - all of whom were dancing and cheered as the oiled up topless police man (full blue oyster) at the top of the of a float sprayed them all with water.  

    I have a picture somewhere of Burka woman high-fiving a drag queen.



  • Mopac
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    I believe that people have a great deal more control over what they find sexually attractive than what the lbgtq+ people would have you believe.

    It is a choice.

    Not only is it a choice, but there is a right choice.

    Sexual immorality in all its forms is in every way destructive. 


    Even though I sincerely believe this lifestyle choice is evil, I certainly do not hate those who have been deceived into buying into it. Quite the contrary, I love them as I love anyone else.



  • Sparrow
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    --> @Mopac
    Keep your ideology in the bronze ages where it belongs.

    "Oh no, you like the penis? that so bad cuz god no leik the penis"
  • Mopac
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    --> @Sparrow
    That is not very mature, and is quite condescending. My viewpoint is not an arbitrary one.
    I understand this is a sensitive subject, but I will not be shamed or bullied into silence because there are some who would rather hear what they want to hear rather than the truth. 

  • Dr.Franklin
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    "stoned to death in the Middle East."


    But the left STILL supports Islam. 
  • Swagnarok
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    --> @bsh1
    Seeing as how my post is probably what inspired this thread, please allow me to clarify on a few points:

    -When I posted earlier, it was not intended to target anyone who'd posted in that thread. I simply took it as another opportunity to express my opinion, as always. I didn't give particular regard to the impact that the post might have. If I came across as excessively hostile then I apologize.

    The idea that there is prior establishment for LGBT identity in persecution of such is a valid one. Two things about this:
    1. You must admit that for a lot of people in 2019 it is "cool" to come out as something other than entirely straight. A lot of people for whom there is absolutely nothing keeping them from living normal lives unabated, and whose inclinations are overwhelmingly straight, announce that they're "bi-curious" or whatnot. For these, no practical purpose of fending off against marginalization is served. It's largely ego-driven.
    2. We ought to make a distinction, to the greatest degree possible, between protecting a highly vulnerable demographic and a society actively siding with a certain lifestyle to the strong detriment of religious believers who cannot in good conscience support such. While we have established in the contemporary era that there exists a right between consenting adults to marry regardless of gender, this fact does not do away with religious liberty and that of freedom of conscience, which is the most fundamental right in existence (save freedom from being murdered, maimed, or tortured). I suspect it is the belief of people like yourself that there is no such distinction. But I and many other people disagree. The current trend seems to be towards unlimited retreat of religious liberty in favor of LGBT rights wherever a conflict should exist, when in fact a balancing test should be employed instead. For example, lectures in school against bullying gays serves a productive purpose, whereas pride parade in schools marginalizes those who must disagree.

    (Disclaimer: I have little sympathy for those who feel disdain and disgust for gay people for reasons other than religious ones.)

    My parents are fundamentalist Christian believers. I had a sister who came out a few years ago. While they were saddened by the news, they did not break contact with her, or threaten her, much less physically assault her. My mother is probably going to attend her wedding soon. That in mind, I suspect that for the most part people who come out as gay in 2019's America are not physically endangered for doing so. That ship sailed a good while back.
    Rather there exists psychological and emotional issues. LGBT people, as you've noted, struggle with self-worth, isolation of family and friends, and contradiction between LGBT and the faith they want to still believe in. It is the belief of people such as yourself that things like gay pride will resolve these issues.
    If it was literally just their own rights at stake, then I would absolutely support gay pride parades and whatnot. But again, there are people in America who still believe. Their right to their belief must be absolutely paramount. Putting psychological pressure on them to conform in regards to this issue is infringement on their belief and conscience. That's why I believe that people such as yourself should resolve your personal struggles on your own (or with help from one another), without state action to re-shape society into such a form where such issues can be totally forgotten (by way of elimination of any such reminder), because what would be required to pull this off would be nothing short of Orwellian.
    What you believe to be the perfect solution is simply one that substitutes the right of one group for those of another.


  • Swagnarok
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    (Also, if you got two notifications I apologize. I accidentally posted this in the other thread.)
  • RationalMadman
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    --> @Dr.Franklin
    I'm a left-wing-leaning 'centrist' progressive and I don't support Islam as an ideology.

    The key is making it matter more that the community is in harmony than worrying if I agree with their ideology or not. So, in other words, even if your true ideology disgusts me, I'm willing to ignore the holy book and the horrors written in it if you're willing to do the same and cherry pick the nice parts. This is why I don't mind Muslims, but I do mind Islam in its pure form.

    You cannot deny that there are severely homophobic, women-abusing and violence-inciting lines in the Qur'an it even has a line that literally says to not think of those slain in the name of Allah as dead, they just 'appear that way'. I mean, if that line isn't the definition of what lunatic terrorists use to justify their actions then I'm not sure what is, it's definitely a deal-closer if nothing else, since if you aren't going to be killing anyone in Allah's eyes, you're not even a violent person in their reality.

    Not all Muslims believe in that, in fact I would say most Muslims only agree with around 20% of the Qur'an. This is shocking but true, I have actually talked with real Muslims and gone into specifics and found they either get furious with you asking or calmly admit just how little of the Qur'an is actually not brutally unreasonable and/or unjust to believe and think.

    If you're born into a Muslim family or whatever, maybe you're adopted by one, and they peer pressure you to identify as Muslim but you're a decent human being who never is led astray from core morals and societal harmony, then I don't see the issue with you 'following' that religion. The issue is what exactly the religion is. If it's the teachings, then we need to end it. On the other hand, if the religion is the people who follow it, we merely need to convince them to ignore the horrific and/or stupid parts of what they're preached to and taught.
  • Sparrow
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    --> @Mopac
    Blah blah blah right wing christian "truth" complex bullshit. Everyone who disagrees with you is not afraid of truth, it's just that you don't have the truth therefor I disagree with you. Your claims about what is "arbitrary" is irrelevant because you literally think that God is real by definition because you cherry picked a particular definition you liked out of a particular dictionary when other just as credible dictionaries don't even include it and it is only part of one of the definitions.

    That is the definition of arbitrary Mr Pepe, and yes I know who you are from CD.
  • Sparrow
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    RM you aren't a real social democrat. You are Hillary Clinton.
  • RationalMadman
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    Thanks, and you are a Stalin Type1/Sparrow.
  • Sparrow
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    Except I'm objectively not. Your politics by your own admission are the same as Hillary Clinton's and you calling me Stalin is nothing but retarded ignorance of what I really support.
  • RationalMadman
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    Precisely the opposite, it is the pinnacle of ingenious anti-ignorant awareness of what you support that enables me to ascertain that you're a Stalinist in denial.
  • Sparrow
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    You live in your own world, I live in reality. In reality social democrats are left wing and nothing like Hillary who is nothing but a virtue signaling conservative who pretends to be progressive but supports the same systems and libertarians are not Stalin-like.
  • RationalMadman
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    Hillary is a social democrat ~85% of the way. You're just looking for her to be all or nothing. 

  • Sparrow
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    You don't decide what I'm looking for. Trump is a Nazi because he's 85% of the way there by that logic. 

    Hillary has a long history of espousing right wing views and changes her views according to the tide. She is ultimately nothing but pro-establishment and only acts progressive because that is her brand of populism and what she thinks will win her votes. When you understand that, she is clearly not 85% anything but a conservative who says things that make gullible liberals feel warm and fuzzy.
  • RationalMadman
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    I would happily agree to the first line's ending. There's very little about Trump that isn't vile, after all.

    I understand that just like you hate Dax, you hate Hillary because someone you like told you what to say about her. Instead of saying 'she is X' say the proof of 'she is X' please. Explain the views she went back on.

    Would you like to explore the gay marriage one, for instance? 

  • Sparrow
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    I already showed you the videos of her saying one thing then saying the exact opposite on multiple issues. Do you honestly think she's changing her mind or do you think she's an establishment cunt shill who says whatever she thinks will get her ahead in the polls? You said your views closely align with hers but are you talking about her REAL views (elitism, authoritarianism, corporatism etc.) or her "plz vote for me" views (happy sunshine progress acceptance yay) ?