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@Mopac
With regards to moderation;
I'm referring to the instinctive behaviour of humanity as a whole, rather than the conceptualised activities of a religious organisation.
No go areas in the UK
Posts
Total:
243
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@Stephen
I have also asked you three times to tell me if the MUSLIMS in this video are what you would call "moderate Muslims"? This will be the forth.
What I see in the video are people being manipulated.
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@Mopac
Intolerance and Christianity are not compatible.
What a bald faced lie. You prove how little tolerance you have in every post. You also prove how compatible your version of christianity and lying are.
Define what you call love.
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@Stephen
1.5 billion. You must be dead already.
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@keithprosser
I have also asked you three times to tell me if the MUSLIMS in this video are what you would call "moderate Muslims"? This will be the forth.What I see in the video are people being manipulated.
More playing down and apologising. Denial denial denial. FK you prosser. Those muslims in that video are all agreeing with what the speaker has said, there is no getting away from it. . You play it down by saying these "people" that will be MUSLIMS!!! are "being manipulated" - how the fk would you know!!!? Are you a reader of the MUSLIM mindset now? This is apologizing for islam AND apologising for the opinions of ALL of these MUSLIMS assembled in that hall., and you know it. And you pretend these stats do not even exist from your favourite left wing newspaper
Muslims in Britain have zero tolerance of homosexuality, says poll https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2009/may/07/muslims-britain-france-germany-homosexuality
Half of all British Muslims think homosexuality should be illegal, poll finds https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2...
So I will ask you again, would you call the muslims in the video "moderate muslims" yes or no. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MiiGkB6wp4A&t=14s
And YET AGAIN you have ignored my requests for explanations here>>
What is a "moderate muslim"?
What "types of Islam" are there?
What is an "ordinary muslim"?
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@Yassine
Reminds me of those 'Patriot' groups in their no-go-zones... Black ghettos in their gang territories too I guess
Yep, nobody claimed it was exclusively a Muslim thing. Everyone acknowledges those groups have no go zones as well.
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@Yassine
@keithprosser
@Stephen
@Mopac
Just for clarification if a government is under a rule of a Religion it is not secular. Yassine mentioned a Caliph is secular but it isn't.
3 definitions of secular below:
@Yassine and whoever I had as a reciever wants to read this
I do understand where you got the worldly definition but when people say secular what they mean is a non-Religious government in the context of when they are talking about the government.
Secular Merriam Webster: not overtly or specifically religious
Secular Oxford Dictionary: Not connected with religious or spiritual matters.
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@Stephen
i'm sure you are well aware how a skilled speaker can 'work' his audience. I wonder what the response would have been if he'd started by saying 'how many here twould throw a gay off a tall buiding?' But he didn't do that - he built up to it. It was skilled oratory.More playing down and apologising. Denial denial denial. FK you prosser. Those muslims in that video are all agreeing with what the speaker has said, there is no getting away from it.
I don't deny the video is genuine - of course there are fear and hate mongers on the islamic side, your allies in the headlong rush to civil strife. But none of them post on DA! (Yassine is a proper apologist for Islam, but he's not a hate monger.) Do you think I'd allow an Islamist hawk to post inflamartory half-truths and distortions unanswered?
Omar is right - all you do is post unhelpful and infamatory posts and have nothing constructive to say.
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@TheRealNihilist
I am using the correct historical usage of the world secular, which even in the case of so called "theocracies" refers to the aspect of them that makes laws, levies armies, and all the things a worldly or secular government does.
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@keithprosser
More playing down and apologising. Denial denial denial. FK you prosser. Those muslims in that video are all agreeing with what the speaker has said, there is no getting away from it.i'm sure you are well aware how a skilled speaker can 'work' his audience.
More apologetics. This video clearly supports the finding published by the Guardian that Muslims in Britain have zero tolerance of homosexuality, says poll https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2009/may/07/muslims-britain-france-germany-homosexuality
Half of all British Muslims think homosexuality should be illegal, poll finds https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2...
I wonder what the response would have been if he'd started by saying 'how many here twould throw a gay off a tall building?'
Then wonder no more, he more or less has you buffoon, they all agreed that the penalty for homsexuality is and should be death.
He asks in a very slow calm voice " how many of you in the room are normal muslims, not extremists, not radical, raise your hand?" , They all raised their hands.
But he didn't do that - he built up to it. It was skilled oratory.
That is not what I asked you stop fk swerving. Everyone in that room all agree that they are not extremist or radicals. everyone also in that room all agree that the punishment for adultry and homsexuality is death.
It matters not what you believe of the speakers skills.
I don't deny the video is genuine - of course there are fear and hate mongers on the islamic side, your allies in the headlong rush to civil strife.
That surprises me, if you thought you could syphon a glitch or even more apologetic sympathy from the video, you would have done so in a flash, but you can't , you have to face the facts and it's breaking your fucking heart so you attack the speaker in the video who has already established that the audience is not extreme or radical leaving you to grasp at straws.
So I ask you again, are these muslims what you would call "moderate muslims"? because they say that they are. .https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MiiGkB6wp4A&t=14s
Omar is right - all you do is post unhelpful and infamatory posts and have nothing constructive to say.
I didn't make or post the video up on youtube, that would be muslims, or it would have been taken down by now. AND That wasn't the question. this was the question;- are these muslims what you would call "moderate muslims"? because they say they are.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MiiGkB6wp4A&t=14s
And YET AGAIN you have ignored my requests for explanations here>>
What is a "moderate muslim"?
What "types of Islam" are there?
What is an "ordinary muslim"?
all you do is post unhelpful and infamatory posts
Oh and it wasn't me who published the findings printed in the Guardian either. Have you complained about the "inflammatory" press releases published by this left wing rag?
Here they are again, But don't bother blaming me for the research,editing and publishing. I had fk all to do with it!!!!
Muslims in Britain have zero tolerance of homosexuality, says poll https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2009/may/07/muslims-britain-france-germany-homosexuality
Half of all British Muslims think homosexuality should be illegal, poll finds https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2...
all you do is post unhelpful and infamatory posts
Get this through your skull. I only respond to what you write. I only post in response to what you accuse me of or deny. You just don't like it that I can respond to your bullshit and have answers for the same shite. Whereas you have painted yourself into a corner from the off,, again.
You won't forget my questions will you? . I have asked you quite a few times now.
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@Stephen
I am damn sure I have never posted that Islam is gay friendly!
Get this into you skull - I don't post against you because I love Islam. I post against you because I think you post inflamatory propaganda.
Are there social issues due to the presence of a muslim minority in the UK? Of course there are!!
What do you, Steve, do about those issues? You make sure every story that can show that minority in a bad light gets the maximum possible exposure here on DArt and possibly elsewhere.
My job is annoying you.
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@keithprosser
I am damn sure I have never posted that Islam is gay friendly!
That wasn't the question. The question was - are the muslims in the video are what you would call "moderate muslims"? What's you problem it is a yes or no answer.
Get this into you skull - I don't post against you because I love Islam.
I don't believe you. But I can accept that that is my problem. You have shown me enough that says you lick the arse of islam with your lies about the teacher AND THAT story, by the way was something that YOU had posted but you disingenuously left out the death threats and the osman warning from the police regarding the teachers life.
I post against you because I think you post inflamatory propaganda.
You must have missed it. so I'll say it again. I didn't make the video or post it to you tube, No, that will be muslims that did that.
I didn't research, edit and publish the gallup poll results, saying that muslims have "zero tollerance to homsexuality and that homsexualty should be outlawed. No, that was the left wing Guardian news paper. The same paper you just love to quote.
AND I didn't post the story about the homosexual teacher Andrew Moffa. No that was YOU wasn't it? Andrew Moffa who you say "resigned" when this is not the reality. He tells it different, doesn't he? Do you need reminding what he said? You slyly and disingenuously left out the death threats from muslims and the osman warning from the police regarding the teachers life, didn't you?
So you see prosser, like I have said, I only post in response to what you accuse me of or what you deny and what you disingenuously fail to mention. So Fk you again prosser. You keep digging while I watch you go deeper.
Are there social issues due to the presence of a muslim minority in the UK? Of course there are!!
I haven't denied that, But YOU have taken this way off the op track haven't you? We have covered old ground again, and you have lived up to your usual behaviour of avoiding questions concerning your own fk thread.
What do you, Steve, do about those issues?
Yes, you always come back to this when your on the fkn ropes. I want you as the fkn apologist here, to tell US how we get out of the mess that the libtards left fkn wing apologists like yourself have created for the rest of us. And my name is Stephen.
You make sure every story that can show that minority in a bad light gets the maximum possible exposure here on DArt and possibly elsewhere.
You started the thread not me. And I have asked you many times to show us all islam in a good light. So far on this thread at least you have picked a story about the harassment and death threats by muslims against a teacher simply doing his job. WHAT A FKN GOOD START!!!!!
My job is annoying you.
Then "annoy me" with some substance and facts. And you'll go a long fkn way before you begin to annoy me.
And that sound like you are doing just as I have always said you are doing; just being fkn contrary for the sake of it. Ha, you won't win points or arguments with that as your driving factor.
Now then, are these muslims what you would call "moderate muslims"? because they say they are.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MiiGkB6wp4A&t=14s
And YET AGAIN you have ignored my requests for explanations here>>
What is a "moderate muslim"?
What "types of Islam" are there?
What is an "ordinary muslim"?
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@Mopac
Historical usage doesn't matter to the current and more agreed upon usage. Historical definition would matter if we don't have a present day definition of it. When we think of secular we see things likes a human rights court like the EU has. We don't see the Pope and say he is secular.I am using the correct historical usage of the world secular, which even in the case of so called "theocracies" refers to the aspect of them that makes laws, levies armies, and all the things a worldly or secular government does.
The new definition or current definition specifically states it have no Religious ties.
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@TheRealNihilist
Well, that is not how the word is used in our writings, so I will chalk this up as another example of newspeak that is being used to pervert the minds of youth away from the truth.
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@Mopac
You really underestimate our faith. Christianity does not need the protection of a state to live. If this was the case, The Roman Empire would have stamped out Christianity before becoming Christian 300 years after pentecost.
- Faith is ultimately an individual cause, some have stronger faith than others, for good or for worse. You may possess a strong faith, many others don't. But I will grant you this, Christianity & Hinduism are the two faiths which have persisted the most under Islamic rule. Zoroastrianism, Buddhism & the many local religions from Indonesia to Morocco did persist as much, with small & scattered communities surviving today.
Islam thrives in an environment that silences anything that disagrees with it. If The Church were truly given liberty, and Muslims were not threatened with death for converting, Orthodox Christianity would truly flourish in the middle east.
- I see you love to insist on saying things which aren't true. I really don't need to tell you the history of the Church & those who disagreed with it... That said, the Church as indeed given all the liberty it could have, granting its patriarchs the highest positions in the state, & organizing regular debates between Christian scholars & Muslim scholars, even giving them free reign in terms of writing & publishing content. If the Muslims were allowed to preach to Christians in the MD then, there would be none left today. & indeed, the Church had supreme liberty to preach to its heart content across the Muslim world for the better part of a century -under Colonialism, & they failed spectacularly.
It is our duty as Christians to preach the gospel. To prevent us from freely preaching the gospel is to oppose God. It matters not if Muslims are not allowed to try to convert us. Indeed, if they tried, and found themselves being the ones converted, they put themselves in danger! And surely, The Church is no stranger to this. We recognize many Muslims who became Orthodox as saints, after being discovered, refusing to renounce their faith under threats of death that were not empty.
- So is it the duty of Muslims to call to the cause of God. You don't do that by preaching to the gullible or desperate, to separate families & instigate hate & hostility within communities. That's not the way of truth. You do it by proving the truth of your claim to a wise audience, if it has any merits, then truth shall truly prevail. Can you give me an example of a Muslim who became an Orthodox saint?
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@TheRealNihilist
Secular means worldly, ok?
A secularist only sees the material world as all that there is. They denial spiritual matters so they are secularists.
A secular government doesn't deal in matters of religion, it deals with worldly things.
A theocracy or more accurately called a clericocracy, and that is a religious institution with secular authority.
Theocracy literally means God ruled.
Well, that is not how the word is used in our writings, so I will chalk this up as another example of newspeak that is being used to pervert the minds of youth away from the truth.
Not the current day usage. The Bible is not a current book. It is an old book which is not used as a basis for the dictionary which is why secular can mean something else in the Christian community than in other communities.
A definition is a definition. It was never enough nor even a gateway to anti-Christianity. If it was we would see some sort of rise in atheism/agnosticism when the secular was changed. I don't want to take the time to find out myself but you can.
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@Yassine
Saint Ahmed the Calligrapher
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@TheRealNihilist
The bible is thousands of years old. We have had thousands of years worth of writings since the bible.
It means no Religion. As in a secular government. Are you telling me a humanist government is a Religious government?Secular means worldly, ok?
A secularist only sees the material world as all that there is. They denial spiritual matters so they are secularists.A secular government doesn't deal in matters of religion, it deals with worldly things.A theocracy or more accurately called a clericocracy, and that is a religious institution with secular authority.Theocracy literally means God ruled.
Not really explaining your definition. I already know your definition is based off the past not the present which is the disagreement. Lets agree to disagree. I don't see the point in arguing with definitions when the last time we did it didn't go anyway for either of us.
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@Yassine
I picked that one because he was a Turk, but here is another one
Saint Abu of Tbilisi
Another good one though who was also a Turk
Saint Constantine Hagarit
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@TheRealNihilist
I'm kind of an expert in language, but whatever. Not like you'd believe me on that anyway.
The understanding I am presenting.to you is not archaic.
Saint Abu of TbilisiAnother good one though who was also a TurkSaint Constantine HagaritSaint Ahmed the Calligrapher
- Interesting read, I haven't found any Muslim sources for the last two though. Are martyrs considered saints in your tradition?
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@Yassine
Not always.
I'd be surprised if you found Muslim sources for any, as they probably wouldn't be worth noting. We remember these things because it is part of what the church does.
It is also worth noting that just because someone hasn't been glorified by the church as a saint does not mean that they weren't a saint.
All right believing, true worshiping Christians are saints.
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@Mopac
I'd be surprised if you found Muslim sources for any, as they probably wouldn't be worth noting. We remember these things because it is part of what the church does.
- You'd be surprised what you find in Muslim sources. Muslims were keen on recording their history ad nauseam. Maybe there are, but not easily accessible. I found that in these accounts, there is always more to the story than pretended. I understand why Abu of Tbilisi was executed, from a Fiqh point of view. The other two, there must be more to their story. Regardless, it's admirable how they held on to their beliefs despite adversity.
It is also worth noting that just because someone hasn't been glorified by the church as a saint does not mean that they weren't a saint.All right believing, true worshiping Christians are saints.
- That's a different notion of Sainthood than ours.
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@Yassine
It might also seem strange to you that we are a nation of priests as well. What is commonly referred to as a priest is in fact a presbyter, or elder.
But as far as tracing ordinations, every single Bishop of our church can trace their ordinations back to the apostles. When we say in our creed, "One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church", the "Apostolic" part refers to this aspect of the church.
Just for clarification if a government is under a rule of a Religion it is not secular. Yassine mentioned a Caliph is secular but it isn't.
- No! A caliph is a secular ruler, by design. Authority in Islam is naturally inherited from the Prophet (pbuh), in the secular realm by the caliphs, & in the religious realm by the 'ulams. In the Shia tradition, however, they believe leaders should hold both religious & secular authority, whom they call imams.
3 definitions of secular below:@Yassine and whoever I had as a reciever wants to read thisI do understand where you got the worldly definition but when people say secular what they mean is a non-Religious government in the context of when they are talking about the government.Secular Merriam Webster: not overtly or specifically religiousSecular Oxford Dictionary: Not connected with religious or spiritual matters.
- I know perfectly what secular & worldly means, in the appropriate context.
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@Mopac
Intolerance and Christianity are not compatible.In fact, we are taught a step above simply tolerating others. We are taught charity. That is, loving those who are tolerated, not simply putting up with them.
- Indeed. Tolerance is a weak concept. Secularists, in advancing their ultimate morality, fail to deliver & impress. Kindness, Respect, Charity, Affection & Compassion are far more valuable than just Tolerance.
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@Wylted
Yep, nobody claimed it was exclusively a Muslim thing. Everyone acknowledges those groups have no go zones as well.
- The thing is though, I can point out where these ghettos are & the shoot-outs that happened there -these don't stay out of police reports... Where are these Muslim no-go zones? Or do police suddenly get amnesia when it comes to that...
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@Yassine
When crime happens in either place, it doesn't stay out of police reports LOL. No go zone merely means "a high crime area" that police have to use more caution entering. It is not exclusively a muslim thing and nobody ever claimed it was, though there is clearly a problem of intolerance in much of the Muslim community. Hell you can tell some Muslims that there are high crime muslim communities and they will think that high crime black areas are an excuse for that.- The thing is though, I can point out where these ghettos are & the shoot-outs that happened there -these don't stay out of police reports... Where are these Muslim no-go zones? Or do police suddenly get amnesia when it comes to that...