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@Stephen
Do you believe the people in the video are representative of all Muslims?
No go areas in the UK
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@keithprosser
- after all, not answering takes no effort at all!
And it takes almost nothing to copy & paste the question that you are afraid to answer, because you know it can only lead to one single conclusion; that the muslims in the video are NOT "moderates" at all are they,yet they say they are, don't they. But you were never going to admit that because you live in total denial and are pretending that Islam is not a problem or even admit that Islam in not compatible with western culture or society.
Would a so called "moderate muslim" call for the death penatlty for anyone performing homsexual acts? Yes or NO
The issue is not whether they are 'moderate'
As I have said, you are afraid to answer. And it was a question. I didn't ask you to tell me what the actual issue was.
My target is a situation where -this is only an example - a woman can walk down any street anywhere in Britain wearing a burqa or a mini-skirt and nobody minds.
That will be you denying the reality of "the issue" which is the entire platform of the left liberal establishment.
You,Stephen, don't accept that Islam can be anything but homophoic and misogynistic,
That's correct. And how do I know this? because muslims and the fkn Quran SAYS SO!!!!! Ask a muslim, you are likely to get this answer:
"Human beings did not write the Qur’an, and we cannot change it".
but I think religions depend entirely on interpretation and there are geo-political reasons why it is backward-looking (not progressive) forms of Islam that have gained traction over the last few decades,
See, again you mention types and now "forms" of Islam. Start a thread on "progressive forms of Islam" that you keep banging on about. lets see what they are.
why it is backward-looking (not progressive) forms of Islam that have gained traction over the last few decades,
It has gained traction because of muslims immigrating to foreign lands and setting up "communities " of their own. They elect other muslims to represent them. They gain positions in high office in their adopted country and they out breed the indigenous population. That is why it has "gained traction" and anyone Except an leftwing fawning libtard apologist such as yourself can see it!
we are talking compromise, not appeasement or capitualtion by either side.
There will be no compromise with islam because Islam cannot be anything but Islam. And we are already seeing appeasement of, and capitulation to, Islam by the governments of western countries.
Those muslims protesting at those schools have made it clear, they don't want "compromise" they want those lessons " totally gone and abolished" this is after the school says it has now "restructured" the lessons and "met the parents halfway"
Primary school which has had parents protest outside will have updated LGBT lessons in September
The UK is going to be multi-ethnic and multi-faith forever - we better get used to it!
It is already both of those you buffoon. But don't count on it to remain that way. Islam doesn't tolerate other religions and it doesn't tolerate non muslims and you had better "get used" to that fact as much as you want to deny it.
Quran 51 - "You, whohave believed, do not take the Jews and the Christians as allies. They are [infact] allies of one another. And whoever is an ally to them among you – thenindeed, he is [one] of them. Indeed, Allah guides not the wrongdoing people".
Quran 8:12 - "Iwill cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike offtheir heads and strike off every fingertip of them".
Quran 8:39 And fight them until there is no fitnah and[until] the religion, all of it, is for Allah. And if they cease - then indeed,Allah is Seeing of what they do.
You see prosser, not being a muslim is to be "an enemy of Allah"
Sahihal-Bukhari Book 53 Hadith 386 “Our Prophet, theMessenger of our Lord, has ordered us to fight you till you worship Allah Aloneor give Jizya (i.e. tribute),and our Prophet has informed us that our Lordsays:-- "Whoever amongst us is killed (i.e. martyred), shall go toParadise to lead such a luxurious life as he has never seen"
So now you have admitted finally that you have no intention of answering a question that you know will embarrass you further, why not have stab at explaining to me and anyone interested on these "progressive forms of Islam" that you keep banging on about.
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@Stephen
Don't mistake anyone who is not right-wing a 'leftwing fawning libtard' nor anyone who is not cruedely anti-Islam an apologist. I am not aware of any example of a country being islamified by the methods you gave. I am not sure if you are suggesting it is a conscious process - you can clear that up later.It has gained traction because of muslims immigrating to foreign lands and setting up "communities " of their own. They elect other muslims to represent them. They gain positions in high office in their adopted country and they out breed the indigenous population. That is why it has "gained traction" and anyone Except an leftwing fawning libtard apologist such as yourself can see it!
But none of that would happen if people were not attracted to conservative Islam more than they are attracted to more liberal ideologies. If we understood that it would beeasier to know how to counter it.
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@Stephen
It has gained traction because of Irish/Jews/Japanese/Italians immigrating to foreign lands and setting up "communities " of their own. They elect other Irish/Jews/Japanese/Italians to represent them. They gain positions in high office in their adopted country and they out breed the indigenous (non-catholic) population. That is why it has "gained traction" and anyone Exceptan leftwing fawning libtard apologist such as yourself can see it!
It's called "democracy".
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@keithprosser
So as usual, all bluster and nothing to offer on the "forms" and "types" of Islam you keep spouting about. That will be because there is only Islam and nothing else when looked at from the Muslims stand point and you attempting to make out that there are other "types" and "forms" of islam is just you trying to play down the barbarity of this Islamic ideology by pretending muslims such as those in the video do not exist and are not "real muslims". That is typical left wing platforming and apologising for Islam.
You crowed earlier that the Schools hadn't "caved in " to the demands of the muslim parents. Do you still stand by that premature statement or are you going to deny that one of the schools has now dropped the No Outsiders program altogether and one has "updated" whatever that means- their LGBT lessons and "met the parents half way"? With which they are still not satisfied.
But none of that would happen if people were not attracted to conservative Islam
People? You mean the hundreds of thousands if not millions of muslims that are attracted by verses such as these?
Quran 51 - "You, who have believed, do not take the Jews and the Christians as allies. They are [infact] allies of one another. And whoever is an ally to them among you – then indeed, he is [one] of them. Indeed, Allah guides not the wrongdoing people".
Quran 8:12 - "I Will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them".
Quran 8:39 And fight them until there is no fitnah and[until] the religion, all of it, is for Allah. And if they cease - then indeed,Allah is Seeing of what they do.
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@Stephen
Do you believe the christians in this article are moderate christians? YES OR NO?
The Ku Klux Klan is composed entirely of white, Anglo-saxon, Christian American citizens, both male and female, who believe that their race and religion are superior to those of people of other colors and religions. [LINK]
The main difference is that you understand that one group of white christian people is not representative of ALL white christian people.
Now if only you could understand that being a Muslim is not a crime, in-and-of-itself.
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@Stephen
Quran 51 - "You, who have believed, do not take the Jews and the Christians as allies. They are [infact] allies of one another. And whoever is an ally to them among you – then indeed, he is [one] of them. Indeed, Allah guides not the wrongdoing people".
Let's try to remember, if we're dredging up ancient history, that the Jews and the Christians are also pretty good at slaughtering civilians.
Numbers 31:17-18 So now, kill all the boys, and kill every woman who has had relations with a man, but spare for yourselves every girl who has never had relations with a man. [LINK]
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@3RU7AL
Jesus was not born at the time you are referencing. There were no people to distinguish as we today call Christians. Muhammad took up a radically different religion distinct from Christianity, and as I understand the New Testament of Islam is the Qur'an.
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@3RU7AL
Let's try to remember, if we're dredging up ancient history,
You need to read the thread and its title. While it maybe a case that Islam and or muslims are mentioned in this thread, the thread started by prosser is all to do with" No go areas in the UK".
So if you want to start a thread on muslim or christian or jewish atrocities committed in ancient times, fkn start a thread about it and stop disrupting this one.
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@Snoopy
Jesus was not born at the time you are referencing. There were no people to distinguish as we today call Christians. Muhammad took up a radically different religion distinct from Christianity, and as I understand the New Testament of Islam is the Qur'an.
The single example provided was not intended to be comprehensive.
Perhaps you've heard of Torquemada? [LINK]
The point being, people of all religions (even Buddhists) have slaughtered civilians.
That fact is an indictment of the individuals and or the institutions they are responsible for, not the religion itself.
You can't blame all Muslims for what some of them do and or say (freedom of speech/freedom of religion).
In the same way that I DON'T blame all Christians for what the (proudly christian) KKK does and says.
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@Stephen
You need to read the thread and its title. While it maybe a case that Islam and or muslims are mentioned in this thread, the thread started by prosser is all to do with" No go areas in the UK".So if you want to start a thread on muslim or christian or jewish atrocities committed in ancient times, fkn start a thread about it and stop disrupting this one.
You're the one quoting the (very ancient and very Muslim) Quran.
The Irish-Americans were vilified and excluded from general society - - THEREFORE they lived TOGETHER in neighborhoods of overwhelmingly Irish people. They ran for public offices. They joined the police force. They fought for their rights.
The Italian-Americans were vilified and excluded from general society - - THEREFORE they lived TOGETHER in neighborhoods of overwhelmingly Italian people. They ran for public offices. They joined the police force. They fought for their rights.
The behavior you are so afraid of is NORMAL.
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@3RU7AL
You're the one quoting the (very ancient and very Muslim) Quran.
As I have said, islam and muslims would obviously feature in this thread. I quoted the quran in response to something said by someone else. If you cannot keep up you should keep off the thread.
The behavior you are so afraid of is NORMAL.
At least you appear to believe it is actually happening unlike prosser who denies it completely. Oh, and let me add, the two nationalities you mentioned above Italian & Irish were of Christian decent weren't they? Did they emigrate to America and demand that those already living there adopt something like Shaliah Law. Did the Chinese who built miles of railway in the USA demand that their own religion and laws of China usurp the existing laws and religion of America. You are talking about a brand new nation that isn't even a quarter of a century old where the USA is concerned and that happened to be populated already by Christians, you clown.
Your reasoning (boneheaded excuses) are absolute bollocks. Islam has no place in western society it is not compatible with western society as many scholars, including islamic scholars, attest to.
It's called "democracy".
Islam does not do "democracy" or liberalism. It's funny though that these people come to the land of the infidel and pagan and the "dirty animal kuffar" seeking "refuge and asylum" but no sooner do they grow in numbers then they start demanding another way of living, their way of living and start to impose it on the indigenous population.
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@Stephen
You're the one quoting the (very ancient and very Muslim) Quran.As I have said, islam and muslims would obviously feature in this thread. I quoted the quran in response to something said by someone else. If you cannot keep up you should keep off the thread.
You don't seem to understand the concept of "public forum".
I am "on topic" and if you'd like to steer this conversation towards some specific point, simply ask a specific question.
The behavior you are so afraid of is NORMAL.At least you appear to believe it is actually happening unlike prosser who denies it completely.
Seriously, people have been chased out of neighborhoods for literally thousands of years.
It is usually the minority populations that are chased out of neighborhoods and by necessity form their own neighborhoods which naturally exclude "outsiders".
Oh, and let me add, the two nationalities you mentioned above Italian & Irish were of Christian decent weren't they?
Catholics and Protestants have a rich history of killing each other. It was actually pretty shocking to a lot of people that JFK was elected president even though he was a professed (dirty) Catholic (papal stooge).
Did they emigrate to America and demand that those already living there adopt something like Shaliah Law.
They had their own ideas of what was moral and what laws should be passed and enforced. Christianity is not monolithic. There are thousands of Christian denominations, all with different rule books.
Did the Chinese who built miles of railway in the USA demand that their own religion and laws of China usurp the existing laws and religion of America.
They probably would have if they were able to vote. They were treated like animals.
You are talking about a brand new nation that isn't even a quarter of a century old where the USA is concerned and that happened to be populated already by Christians, you clown.
You're missing the point. These are just a few relatively recent examples of a phenomenon called "tribalism" that has been part of human nature since the stone age. + ad hominem.
Your reasoning (boneheaded excuses) are absolute bollocks. Islam has no place in western society it is not compatible with western society as many scholars, including islamic scholars, attest to.
Opinion on top of opinion. It's like an big fat juicy opinion sandwich.
You (EITHER) believe in religious tolerance and inalienable human rights and freedom of speech (OR) you don't.
It's called "democracy".Islam does not do "democracy" or liberalism. It's funny though that these people come to the land of the infidel and pagan and the "dirty animal kuffar" seeking "refuge and asylum" but no sooner do they grow in numbers then they start demanding another way of living, their way of living and start to impose it on the indigenous population.
You are literally describing "democracy".
Please propose a hypothetical "solution" to your hypothetical "problem".
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@Stephen
on the indigenous population.
The indigenous populations were exterminated by other invaders. History is beyond your ken as well.
I don't intend to convey that there aren't real issues brought by the mass migration, but putting kids through some LGBT equality program sounds like indoctrination. I had no idea what any of that was in third grade and that's not a bad thing. Whatever those teachers are leaning on is probably based in pseudoscience and social trends. When it comes to explicit religious exemptions I don't think asking for halal meat and such is evidence of aggressive political endeavor.
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@Snoopy
Show us the curriculum that makes you so sure.
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@disgusted
It just sounds odd and unnecessary in its own right, and I couldn't blame parents for having suspicions, holding reservation.
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@Snoopy
Do you mean like teaching that a vicious, vindictive, genocidal god character wants to send the little kiddies to hell for the way he created them?
But it's wrong in your opinion to teach children to be themselves, what a tenuous grasp you have on reality.
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@disgusted
Where did those two ideas come from?
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@Snoopy
OK kiddy go back to your sandpit. You have nothing to contribute to the discussion.
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@disgusted
In a rush to disqualify?OK kiddy go back to your sandpit. You have nothing to contribute to the discussion.
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@disgusted
You wrote two seemingly random things down in association with me. I can only assume they come from something in your personal experience. I asked you a question, where you were coming from, which of course I don't expect an answer from. You didn't answer the question, called me a belittling term and told me "go back to your sandpit". Now I don't believe you were looking to "contribute to the discussion" in the first place.
Seriously, people have been chased out of neighborhoods for literally thousands of years.
And still are but this is a different beast altogether no matter how you want to paint it. It is not compatible and it is not peaceful no matter how many times our own western leaders try to tell us it is.
Catholics and Protestants have a rich history of killing each other.
They do have a history you should note the word "history". For the best part those conflict are long gone, although, in Scotland at the football matches you will now and again have Celtic and Rangers fight it out on the terraces.
There are thousands of Christian denominations, all with different rule books.
And they all live under one law. They do not demand that a backward ancient law system takes precedence over the laws of the adopted land.
You (EITHER) believe in religious tolerance and inalienable human rights and freedom of speech (OR) you don't.
Listen to yourself. ISLAM is intolerant to ALL the above. This is why ISLAM is INCOMPATIBLE with the West. YET here we have bellend apologist like yourself and prosser AND our own Western leaders trying to square a circle by attempting with every fiber of your existence to make the incompatible- compatible. We are having new words invented, words redefined and new laws added to our society that is and will further, stop the "freedom of speech" and do away with the "inalienable human rights" that you appear to value.
Tell me, WHAT if I do not "believe in TOLERANCE, inalienable HUMAN RIGHTS and FREEDOM OF SPEECH"?
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@Snoopy
I don't intend to convey that there aren't real issues brought by the mass migration, but putting kids through some LGBT equality program sounds like indoctrination.
It is and I happen to agree with you and the muslim parents protesting. My point was and still is, the hypocrisy of the left wing libtards such as prossser. If these were Christian parents protesting, there would be every homosexual in the land ( and prosser) turning out to confront these parents and supporting the teachers. And there would be accusations of them being "homophobic" and spitting and in their faces and worse. And I don't doubt for one minute that many of the Christian parents would be arrested charged and imprisoned or fined for "hate crime", which has happened to christians on a few occasions now. And the clear point that these muslim parents have made is that one cannot be a muslim and homosexual, so it is their religious beliefs they are pushing here.
When it comes to explicit religious exemptions I don't think asking for halal meat and such is evidence of aggressive political endeavor.
They are not asking though are they. They are demanding and forcing their strict religious practice onto others. Just like they are demanding that (in this instance rightly so) these schools abolish these lessons that go against their religion. This would be the 'tolerance' 3RU7AL and the prossers are alway spouting about.
And while we are on hypocrisy and halal meat. Muslims already have permission via their religious exemption to eat halal as do those who eat Kosher. No one has ever stopped them, So where are the fkn animal rights activists. They are quick to stamp their feet and protest fox hunting and pheasant shoots, but not this type slaughter of animals.
Keeping in mind that for anyone else it is illegal to slaughter animals that have not been stunned, there are more supermarkets now stocking halal meat than ever yet the population of muslims in the the UK is said to be only around 4%-5%. You do the maths.
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@Stephen
You never asked but I don't approve of religious dogma influencing what is taught in schools. I am not sure how important it is to introduce matters of sexual orientation to primary school kids, but it sets a bad precedent for, say, the teaching of Darwinian evolution.They are not asking though are they. They are demanding and forcing their strict religious practice onto others. Just like they are demanding that (in this instance rightly so) these schools abolish these lessons that go against their religion. This would be the 'tolerance' 3RU7AL and the prossers are alway spouting about.
I have not and will not ever advocate appeasement - but I recognise how hard it is to balance non-appeasement and riding rough-shod over dissenting sensibilities.
I think the correct attitude to Islam is 'tough love'! I think the Muslim community can have sharia courts, but on the model of the Jewish Beth Din. The wearing of hijab and burqa should be neither enforced by self-appointed muslim 'religious police' by nor banned by secular law. Liberal secularism will win because it is a bettersystem than religious conservatism. The hard part is to remain liberal and secular and not seccumb to illiberal sectarian intolerance.
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@Stephen
Seriously, people have been chased out of neighborhoods for literally thousands of years.And still are but this is a different beast altogether no matter how you want to paint it. It is not compatible and it is not peaceful no matter how many times our own western leaders try to tell us it is.
How is this a special (special pleading) case?
I think the correct attitude to Islam is 'tough love'! I think the Muslim community can have sharia courts, but on the model of the Jewish Beth Din. The wearing of hijab and burqa should be neither enforced by self-appointed muslim 'religious police' by nor banned by secular law. Liberal secularism will win because it is a bettersystem than religious conservatism. The hard part is to remain liberal and secular and not seccumb to illiberal sectarian intolerance.
What you "think" and what is actaully happening are world's/cultures apart.
This is not simple tribalism. This is a clash of cultures whether you want to face that or not or whether you even see it that way or not. Islam has emigrated here to the west. It had brought with it its own culture and its own laws and it has no intention of integrating with western society.. The quran instructs them not to.
You haven't explained what it means by taking a "tough love" attitude to islam just like you have never explained what you mean by " islam needs its teeth pulling"?
wearing of hijab and burqa should be neither enforced by self-appointed muslim 'religious police'
How do you believe we go about telling a muslim father that his daughter will be allowed to wear miniskirt whether he likes it or not and whether it is against his religion of culture or not?
Liberal secularism will win because it is a better system than religious conservatism.
Not in the eyes of islam. Something you keep totally ignoring.
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@Stephen
There are thousands of Christian denominations, all with different rule books.And they all live under one law. They do not demand that a backward ancient law system takes precedence over the laws of the adopted land.
Nearly every town, city, county, and state have DIFFERENT LAWS.
AND a majority of the Christians I've run across in my lifetime believe that the ideal model for their laws is from a "backward ancient law system". [LINK]
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@Stephen
You (EITHER) believe in religious tolerance and inalienable human rights and freedom of speech (OR) you don't.Listen to yourself. ISLAM is intolerant to ALL the above.
SOME Muslims are intolerant. JUST LIKE SOME Christians are members of the KKK.
Let me buy you a BROAD BRUSH. [LINK]
This is why ISLAM is INCOMPATIBLE with the West.
Is Muhammad Ali "incompatible" with the West?
Is Dr. Oz "incompatible" with the West?
Is Dave Chappelle "incompatible" with the West?
Is Casey Kasem "incompatible" with the West?
What about Cat Stevens, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Shaquille O'Neal, Mike Tyson, Snoop Dogg, Ice Cube, Ellen Burstyn, Mos Def, Omar Epps?
YET here we have bellend apologist like yourself and prosser AND our own Western leaders trying to square a circle by attempting with every fiber of your existence to make the incompatible- compatible.
Secular law applies to all people within its jurisdiction. There is no compelling reason to exclude specific individuals based solely on their choice of religion. + ad hominem...
How is this a special (special pleading) case?
We are having new words invented, words redefined and new laws added to our society that is and will further, stop the "freedom of speech" and do away with the "inalienable human rights" that you appear to value.
Laws change and evolve over time and reflect the social standards and norms of the POPULATION.
If you want to freeze all laws in their current form and essentially inscribe them in stone, you're going to have to make a more compelling case.
Tell me, WHAT if I do not "believe in TOLERANCE, inalienable HUMAN RIGHTS and FREEDOM OF SPEECH"?
Look, I avoid using charged language whenever possible, but you're making it pretty difficult here.
The following is a conditional statement.
(IFF) someone advocates intolerance and conditional human rights and censorship (THEN) that person is a FASCIST.
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@3RU7AL
Christians I've run across in my lifetime believe that the ideal model for their laws is from a "backward ancient law system"
Without trying to impose them on a modern western society. Without making it illegal to criticize and offend. Without inventing words that mean one could end up in prison such as the left wing libtard favourite of the islam apologist "islamophobia".. This religious board is of full of offence, bigotry and criticism of Christians and Christianity and no one seems to give two fks, mention Islam and the shiite hits the fan.
Seriously, people have been chased out of neighborhoods for literally thousands of years.And still are but this is a different beast altogether no matter how you want to paint it. It is not compatible and it is not peaceful no matter how many times our own western leaders try to tell us it is.How is this a special
Now who is missing the point. As much as you like to play down this menace as mere "tribalism" it is far more than that, It is a clash of cultures and ideologies.
You (EITHER) believe in religious tolerance and inalienable human rights and freedom of speech (OR) you don't.
Tell me, WHAT if I do not "believe in religious TOLERANCE, inalienable HUMAN RIGHTS and FREEDOM OF SPEECH"?