I Told You So

Author: ethang5

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Castin
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@Outplayz
Well, DDO slowly looks like it's coming back. I don't think i will be using this site when it does come back. I already stopped using debate island bc of this site... but, DDO is my main. I've been a loyal little soldier lol. 
Nope. Sorry. You're staying. I'm revoking your visa. The gang is sticking together and at the end of the movie we're meeting in the amusement park to sing we go together like rama lama lama ka dinga da dinga dong. Possibly others from the Grease soundtrack.
Outplayz
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@Castin
You know what... i just might have to stick around and keep you all out of trouble ;p I've noticed you venturing out into the "popular" threads... where everyone knows each other except of course the cursed "religion people." Lol. I actually like it... the outcasts. I've always adored such a position. But... this site really does move slow... i've always been the 'in the fast lane' type of guy. 


Castin
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... Well the place isn't even finished yet, guys. Don't you think decisive conclusions are at least a little premature? 🤔 The site's only been open a few weeks and is still in beta. Mike hasn't even implemented the moderator system yet. So basically none of us have seen what a fully moderated DART looks like. I think we should try to be patient. He's been trying to get the site ready and play babysitter in the meantime, and surprise, job juggling hasn't produced great results. We haven't exactly been making things easy for him.

I don't know what the finished product of DART will look like, but I do know what the finished product of DDO looks like, and I feel no temptation to take it back as my primary. Members have no voice on DDO to reach the Powers That Be. Juggle is cold and distant and obviously not invested in its own site or community. Here we have an admin who's active and listening. And the biggest factor of all for me? On DDO I know there will be zero hope of moderation or order. Here there is definite hope of moderation. It's on the schedule, in fact.

RationalMadman
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Understand the only reason people cry about me accepting their debates is terror at the fact I can debate that many to the point I accidentally forfeit a R1 in one of my debates and win them all anyway (or at least have so far).

They don't care that I do so much, it terrifies them that no matter how bogged up I am I can tear their resolution to shreds if need be.
Castin
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@Outplayz
You know what... i just might have to stick around and keep you all out of trouble ;p I've noticed you venturing out into the "popular" threads... where everyone knows each other except of course the cursed "religion people." Lol. I actually like it... the outcasts. I've always adored such a position. But... this site really does move slow... i've always been the 'in the fast lane' type of guy.
Damn straight.

Yeah I guess I've been inflicting myself on the regulars instead of keeping to the religion forum like on DDO. No one has given me a GTFO yet but I'm sure the temptation is great. Like "who is this new annoying person I've never heard of, am I gonna have to put up with her all the time now". (Yes. My deepest condolences.)

Activity's pretty slow, no doubt about it. Been trying to think about what we could do to change that.

Outplayz
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@Castin
In regards to your ventures into the unknown... keep bringing them reason, they need it. Lol. I always read other threads but i usually don't engage. I did for a little but it was mainly flamewars and i get bored easily of such things. There are some really cool members in the other forums though so it's worth the venture. 

I don't think you can speed this site up without some good marketing. By marketing i mean placement on searches. When anyone searches a debate site, or even debate... debate.org is usually the first site to pop up. That is what makes it super busy and always getting new people. I mean, i'm a marketing major and i can figure out how to do it for this site, but i do charge quite a bit to do so. Plus, i don't know if he would give me control of his entire site. But that is what is needed. And, since this is a new site... it takes a lot more marketing power to keep it high up on searches. DDO barely even needs a marketing person at this point. They are so OG that other factors keep them on top. So, the SEO work this site would need is pretty crazy and time consuming, and expensive. Best would be to find a marketing kid that just graduated willing to do it for this site for cheap... or learn it on Youtube. I haven't checked... but everything is on youtube. 
Smithereens
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@Polytheist-Witch
None taken. I'm pointing out that nobody is hiding behind new identities here. Your accusation is false. 
Smithereens
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@Outplayz
I used the religion forum too. I'm pointing out however that the claim that members are hiding their DDO identity behind new names is so wrong I can only assume it was made by someone who never made any attempt to interact with anyone outside that subforum.
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@Smithereens
Could be. I thought they are doing bc they were either trolls or want to continue trolling. Or, some people just like the feeling of tricking people to see their reactions when they don't know who they are talking to. In general, it's kinda weird to me. It almost yells i have something to hide. But... there can be other reasons i'm not thinking of. I've never been the type to hide in any scenario. 
DebateArt.com
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@Outplayz
@Castin
.. Well the place isn't even finished yet, guys. Don't you think decisive conclusions are at least a little premature? 🤔 The site's only been open a few weeks and is still in beta. Mike hasn't even implemented the moderator system yet. So basically none of us have seen what a fully moderated DART looks like. I think we should try to be patient. He's been trying to get the site ready and play babysitter in the meantime, and surprise, job juggling hasn't produced great results. We haven't exactly been making things easy for him.

I don't know what the finished product of DART will look like, but I do know what the finished product of DDO looks like, and I feel no temptation to take it back as my primary. Members have no voice on DDO to reach the Powers That Be. Juggle is cold and distant and obviously not invested in its own site or community. Here we have an admin who's active and listening. And the biggest factor of all for me? On DDO I know there will be zero hope of moderation or order. Here there is definite hope of moderation. It's on the schedule, in fact. 
Yeah, exactly, I've had only a few months to come up with this site and therefore it lacks lots of fundamental things which I try to cover first (we didn't have posts editing a couple of weeks ago). After this part is done, which can take some time, we'll move to the more exciting features that we can develop together and which cannot be found on the other websites. It's just a matter of time.

I don't think you can speed this site up without some good marketing. By marketing i mean placement on searches. When anyone searches a debate site, or even debate... debate.org is usually the first site to pop up. That is what makes it super busy and always getting new people. I mean, i'm a marketing major and i can figure out how to do it for this site, but i do charge quite a bit to do so. Plus, i don't know if he would give me control of his entire site. But that is what is needed. And, since this is a new site... it takes a lot more marketing power to keep it high up on searches. DDO barely even needs a marketing person at this point. They are so OG that other factors keep them on top. So, the SEO work this site would need is pretty crazy and time consuming, and expensive. Best would be to find a marketing kid that just graduated willing to do it for this site for cheap... or learn it on Youtube. I haven't checked... but everything is on youtube.
That's also not that easy. First of all, Google takes its time to index the website and since it's only 1 month old, it's naive to expect good positioning. The situation will be better in a few months though. The main problem with SEO is that there is no mobile version and that can hurt but hopefully I'll find some ad-hoc solution to this.


Also I'd like to point out a few things. First is that this website has no income unlike DDO (at least in the past), ads barely work anymore because of all kinds of ad blockers and it requires lots of traffic anyway to make any money outta it. I'll probably come up with some donation system but I don't imagine it will cover more than hosting services and a couple cups of coffee for me. Also considering that the website mostly operating in the US area, paying for some Google search positioning services out of my own pocket would simply get me broke, so that ain't an option. And the last thing I'd like to mention is that DDO is 10 years old and at some point of time it had lots of people working on it (or so I think, not sure though), whereas this website is 1 month old and there are 1.5 - 2.5 people working on it and not even full time so it's also limiting ...

But if you have any suggestions, I am always open for those :)
keithprosser
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Is SEO useful?  In my experience 90% of posts and debate on sites like this involve a less than a dozen people.  In reality such sites have small dedicate cliques with only a slow turn over of active membership.

I'm not sure that the format would even work if there were, say, a hundred or even 50 active posters. 

We are a clique a bit like a family - we may not all like each other, but we look forward to crossing swords with our favourite enemies!   Having lots of strangers around isn't part of the deal, especially if they turn out to be 'one hit wonders' who don't invest in making DA (and DDO)was what it is, whatever that is!

I'm not advocating 'cliqueyness'; I am suggesting a degree of cliqueyness is inevitable and - I think - probably something we secretly like.

   
DebateArt.com
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@keithprosser
Is SEO useful?  In my experience 90% of posts and debate on sites like this involve a less than a dozen people.  In reality such sites have small dedicate cliques with only a slow turn over of active membership.

I'm not sure that the format would even work if there were, say, a hundred or even 50 active posters.  

We are a clique a bit like a family - we may not all like each other, but we look forward to crossing swords with our favourite enemies!   Having lots of strangers around isn't part of the deal, especially if they turn out to be 'one hit wonders' who don't invest in making DA (and DDO)was what it is, whatever that is!

I'm not advocating 'cliqueyness'; I am suggesting a degree of cliqueyness is inevitable and - I think - probably something we secretly like.
Well, SEO is useful because it may attract new blood to the website. But how effective is it going to be for this website? I don't know.

I like this idea of "family" and I agree that it's not desirable that any new user can come and start messing with whatever he or she wants, that's why there'll be some boarding process at some point. Maybe some kinda sandbox for new users from which they may or may not be brought to the main board or maybe some limits on posting and debating until the user somehow proves that he or she is trustworthy. To be honest, I haven't thought about it yet but I am sure we could come up with something to both gain from the new users and not letting them ruin what we already have.
keithprosser
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@DebateArt.com
I think a relatively simple step would be to disallow startig theads until a certain number of posts or a probabtionary period is over.

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@keithprosser
I think a relatively simple step would be to disallow startig theads until a certain number of posts or a probabtionary period is over.
Yeah but it's only a small step which will not really solve much, we'll need to come up with well thought and complete boarding system.


Castin
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@Smithereens
This is how it is though, the religion forum never really did interact with any of the other forums. You were your own island and now that you're seeing the rest of us for the first time we're unfamiliar faces. Everyone here however knows each other and knows the religious users. You know other religious users and nobody beyond that. 
WHO ARE YOU.

STRANGER DANGER STRANGER DANGER.
Castin
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@DebateArt.com
Also I'd like to point out a few things. First is that this website has no income unlike DDO (at least in the past), ads barely work anymore because of all kinds of ad blockers and it requires lots of traffic anyway to make any money outta it. I'll probably come up with some donation system but I don't imagine it will cover more than hosting services and a couple cups of coffee for me. Also considering that the website mostly operating in the US area, paying for some Google search positioning services out of my own pocket would simply get me broke, so that ain't an option. And the last thing I'd like to mention is that DDO is 10 years old and at some point of time it had lots of people working on it (or so I think, not sure though), whereas this website is 1 month old and there are 1.5 - 2.5 people working on it and not even full time so it's also limiting ...

But if you have any suggestions, I am always open for those :)
I understand, Mike. I don't expect the forum to become an instant success. And I don't expect you to pay for any expensive services. At the end of the day, this site is just recreation.
Outplayz
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@DebateArt.com
Yeah, exactly, I've had only a few months to come up with this site and therefore it lacks lots of fundamental things which I try to cover first (we didn't have posts editing a couple of weeks ago). After this part is done, which can take some time, we'll move to the more exciting features that we can develop together and which cannot be found on the other websites. It's just a matter of time.
You know, this is exactly why in general i will likely stick around. You are really involved which is a good thing. My only thing will be how lenient you'll be in regards to moderation. I personally like the freedom to be offensive when it's called for, so i hope it won't be like Debate-island. That is why i left that one bc even a little bit of getting offensive was met with warning. Debate gets under your skin sometimes and to be able to lash out i feel is warranted. Of course nothing like death threat or direct threats of violence should be allowed, but other than that... that is one thing i really like about DDO, you're free to be a D if you want to. Other than that, i am really liking this site. Not only bc of your involvement, but also to your efforts in making it good. In truth, i am not thinking of leaving here, although i will use DDO when it is back up... i like this site too. Add a thumbs up thumbs down feature on these comments i will likely never leave. I thought the little options you can do on debate Island was really cool... the only thing that almost kept me there was the options to say "persuaded, fallacy, agree, disagree, etc." That was really cool. If you can get that here, i personally would give it two thumbs up. 

That's also not that easy. First of all, Google takes its time to index the website and since it's only 1 month old, it's naive to expect good positioning. 
Yep i'm aware. It takes some time and other sites like DDO are pretty grounded into the coding. There are some things you can do to speed up the process. Its been a little time since i have dealt with Google so the algorithms have probably changed.  One trick would be to put the word "debate" in-between your site's coding wherever you can. Of course, the more users you get here and more posts there are... that will also rank you higher, but that takes time. The trick i shared is a way to get around the waiting a little. But... i image you would have to manipulate the code with a couple thousand keywords since other sites are years old. It most def. is time consuming. 
Castin
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@Outplayz
I fear the kind of no-involvement moderation that would let you be offensive when it's warranted would also never step in to deal with trolls.
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@Outplayz
You know, this is exactly why in general i will likely stick around. You are really involved which is a good thing. My only thing will be how lenient you'll be in regards to moderation. I personally like the freedom to be offensive when it's called for, so i hope it won't be like Debate-island. That is why i left that one bc even a little bit of getting offensive was met with warning. Debate gets under your skin sometimes and to be able to lash out i feel is warranted. Of course nothing like death threat or direct threats of violence should be allowed, but other than that... that is one thing i really like about DDO, you're free to be a D if you want to. Other than that, i am really liking this site. Not only bc of your involvement, but also to your efforts in making it good. In truth, i am not thinking of leaving here, although i will use DDO when it is back up... i like this site too. Add a thumbs up thumbs down feature on these comments i will likely never leave. I thought the little options you can do on debate Island was really cool... the only thing that almost kept me there was the options to say "persuaded, fallacy, agree, disagree, etc." That was really cool. If you can get that here, i personally would give it two thumbs up.
There will be lots of new interesting features once I am done with the basics (editing and deleting stuff, admin interface and a couple more), I promise that ^_^

Yep i'm aware. It takes some time and other sites like DDO are pretty grounded into the coding. There are some things you can do to speed up the process. Its been a little time since i have dealt with Google so the algorithms have probably changed.  One trick would be to put the word "debate" in-between your site's coding wherever you can. Of course, the more users you get here and more posts there are... that will also rank you higher, but that takes time. The trick i shared is a way to get around the waiting a little. But... i image you would have to manipulate the code with a couple thousand keywords since other sites are years old. It most def. is time consuming. 
Nah, those days have gone I am afraid, keywords are barely important these days :( 


Outplayz
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@DebateArt.com
There will be lots of new interesting features once I am done with the basics (editing and deleting stuff, admin interface and a couple more), I promise that ^_^

Cool. I'll be looking forward to it. 

Nah, those days have gone I am afraid, keywords are barely important these days :( 
Yeah, i thought the algorithms would be changed by now. The hardest thing about marketing was to keep up with that and find a way to manipulate the algorithms. But, usually it is something similar. It just takes a bunch of trial and error to see what works. I would have to read my internet marketing book again to figure it out. Have you tried watching any Youtube videos regarding seo? They may have something, bc even if its changed, there is still something tricky you can probably do. 
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@Outplayz
Well, I have done some things for the SEO, like structuring data, providing nice urls, proper handling of pagination and etc so now I am gonna wait till Google decides to index all of it and then I'll see how bad it is and go from there, most likely I'll have to come up with a workaround for the mobile version and if I can do that, then the search position with time will be good enough, I hope.
Outplayz
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@DebateArt.com
Well, good luck. It's a road that must be traveled but i'm sure you'll get to your destination. The more people use this site should also help from what i remember, so i'll make sure i'm posting =) 
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@Outplayz
Well, good luck. It's a road that must be traveled but i'm sure you'll get to your destination. The more people use this site should also help from what i remember, so i'll make sure i'm posting =) 
Thanks! I guess we'll see where it all brings us :)


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I think a fine job is being done so far tbh. As Castin and Mike pointed out, the team working on this site is limited, and right now one person is having to juggle most everything. I dont know if there is anything I might be able to assist with, but I'll just say if there is, lmk and I'll be glad to help in whatever way i effectively can 🤔
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The site has huge potential.

It's already lucky enough to get an active userbase on its 1st day. All it has to do now is to improve and add features for the members to stay and enjoy. The marketing and advertisement of this site will come automatically if it becomes better than DDO.
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@Smithereens
I see no need to hand out labels like "irrelevant" to our fellow members and human beings
as someone who has had long conversations with Ethang on DDO I can attest that this won't offend him, and it's also accurate. 
I understand that eth has a tough hide and I wasn't trying to suggest he was being made into a special victim.

I just think it's silly to fight about who is relevant or irrelevant. One side's gonna argue it was more relevant because of spread, the other side will argue it was more relevant because of activity, and it will go nowhere. It's petty. Everyone's relevant to someone or someones and the value of any group or place is completely subjective. I certainly don't consider people from outside the old religion forum irrelevant.

And fwiw, I think your description in post #13 was quite accurate. I would say even self-evidently so, in my case. I just don't see any shame in it. Although as someone who is not concerned with covered-up DDO identities, I realize your post was not addressed to me. And I'm confused about how the religion forum users were irrelevant and unheard of, but also "everyone here however knows the religious users". 🤔 ??

ethang5
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And I'm confused about how the religion forum users were irrelevant and unheard of, but also "everyone here however knows the religious users". 🤔 ??

Lol. DDO's greatest thinkers. This is what happens when you debate in a clique echo chamber.

When they say irrelevant, they mean, "not part of our clique." No wonder they pine for AirMax so much. He was their BMOC.

It's petty.
Like it was in high school.

425 days later

ethang5
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No wonder they pine for AirMax so much. He was their BMOC.
And poof! Just like coinkidinky magic, Airmax pops up just as bsh1 leaves.

Virt, are you paying attention?

405 days later

ethang5
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Just thought a look back would be interesting.

Notice that the posters to this thread who are no longer here all had a similar position?