-->
@RoderickSpode
The Bible equates hate with murder.
The bible equates just loving less with murder? Do tell.
Are we good?
Posts
Total:
63
-->
@RoderickSpode
what's the difference between the quicky abortion in the clinic, and the Aztec human sacrifice?
The only person involved makes the decision.
-->
@keithprosser
Jacob didn't exactly suffer as a consequence of his dishonesty, did he?
His relationship with his brother was dashed to pieces, and Jacob thought he was going to be killed. He had to part ways with his mother and father, and ended up in two unhappy marriages. He was humiliated by his son Reuben, who slept with his wives, and he was led to believe that the son who he adored had died.
So yeah, I'd have to say that for all Jacob's shenanigans in the end he didn't get everything he wanted. A lot of things went sour for him. That he was able to be the father and namesake of the nation of Israel was only because of the grace of God.
-->
@keithprosser
moral judgements are properly based on the intended outcome of an act rather than its actual outcome
See, there's something about this line of thought I don't like. Because far too often there's something people neglect to add to this. A moral judgment should be made based on both the intended outcome of an act and on whether reasonable precautions were taken against a bad outcome. We have the world at our fingertips, let's do some research before we make decisions with wide-reaching implications for other people.
-->
@Swagnarok
Carelessness can cause as just much harm as evil, but sometimes acts turn out better than expected! Perhaps we should all start thinking in terms of more moral classes than 'good' and 'evil'...!
-->
@Swagnarok
Since morality is subjective so too are moral judgements.
-->
@SkepticalOne
The human sacrifices by the Aztecs was snuffing out a healthy, fully autonomous, volitional individual for no good reason at all.Quite a big difference I'd say.
Isn't it a case of 'bentham's principle applies'? The aztec's sacrifices suffered; an early-stage foetus (we suppose) does not. As soon as a foetus will suffer I think abortion becomes wrong - very wrong.
-->
@keithprosser
Isn't it a case of 'bentham's principle applies'? The aztec's sacrifices suffered; an early-stage foetus (we suppose) does not. As soon as a foetus will suffer I think abortion becomes wrong - very wrong
Is it wrong to cause suffering in order to save a life or prevent greater suffering?
I chose the most objectionable type of abortion specifically to show (even in the worst circumstances) human sacrifice and abortion are not comparable.
-->
@Swagnarok
If the stuff in the second paragraph is "only because of the grace of God," why isn't the stuff in the first paragraph "because of the grace of God" too? Honest question. You skipped my other honest question, so I don't really expect an answer, I guess, but maybe another Christian will engage?His relationship with his brother was dashed to pieces, and Jacob thought he was going to be killed. He had to part ways with his mother and father, and ended up in two unhappy marriages. He was humiliated by his son Reuben, who slept with his wives, and he was led to believe that the son who he adored had died.So yeah, I'd have to say that for all Jacob's shenanigans in the end he didn't get everything he wanted. A lot of things went sour for him. That he was able to be the father and namesake of the nation of Israel was only because of the grace of God.
-->
@ludofl3x
Jacob was entitled to the freedom to act as a cheat and a scoundrel. I'm not sure I understand the question.
-->
@Swagnarok
It's not hard: why is bad behavior not attributable to the grace of god. Or, did Reuben have the grace of god while nailing Jacob;s wives? Did his wives get nailed by Reuben due to the grace of god?
-->
@ludofl3x
Bad behavior is something you choose on your own, something that contradicts the will of God. It is not by His grace that somebody sins, nor does He usually shield somebody from the negative consequences on earth of their behavior, though sometimes He does use such to achieve something good.
The grace of God is a powerful thing. It uplifts and restores an unworthy person. The grace of God is evident in Jacob's life in that he didn't die for his sins, and in that he was able to receive an honor that he was ultimately unworthy of. However, the manifestation of God's grace in the Old Testament is different, because Christ had not yet come. It more concerned temporal conditions rather than the state of one's eternal soul.
-->
@Swagnarok
Did the grace of god extend to the person who fucked the other person's wives? Are the wives enthusiastically getting banged by someone other than their husband, and thereby committing adultery, by the grace of god, or only according to his plan (which now includes punishing them too, no?)? All of those parties are part of the retribution god seeks, I think you're saying. Am I misunderstanding?
-->
@ludofl3x
Alright, my bad. I didn't realize you were asking in bad faith.
-->
@Swagnarok
I'm not sure why you think that question is asked in bad faith. If God's retribution against Jacob for his deception was indeed a long list of humiliations, brought about only by Jacob's actions against god's will, then do the sins incurred as part of that retribution count as sins (adultery by both Reuben and the wives), are they part of god's plan for Jacob's retributiion?
Maybe start with an easier one. Did god plan for Jacob to sin in this way, did he know it would happen, or was he surprised that it happened?
-->
@ludofl3x
All persons will be held accountable for their wicked actions. In the end nobody will get a "pass", except so far as the blood of Christ has washed over them and made them righteous. However, people's sinful choices, while not willed by God, may be used by God to accomplish judgment.
For example: Nebuchadnezzar swept his armies into Judah, murdered huge scores of people, and brought the rest into exile/probable slavery. There was nothing about what he did that was morally "okay". A wicked person like him would eventually get his dues, either in this life or the next. No question about it. But God saw fit to use Nebuchadnezzar to punish the Israelites for their idolatry and draw them back to Him. The fact that the man was so used does not excuse him in any way. God could've sent a plague to Israel instead, for example. But He let their invasion and conquest by an earthly power happen and did not protect Israel from the Babylonian king's hands.
A more famous example is Judas. Early gnostics suggested that Judas was doing God's will by betraying Jesus to the Roman authorities, a claim that mainstream Christianity rejected.
-->
@Swagnarok
However, people's sinful choices, while not willed by God, may be used by God to accomplish judgment.
I'm afraid I can't make sense of this: if they're not willed by god, then how does he use them to accomplish anything? He's not involved with them, so it seems a little strange that he can somehow "take credit" as it were for this retribution. If he wants to say "I used Nebuchednezzar to punish you," then Neb is no longer fully accountable for his actions, as god is 'using' them. It'd be like blaming the saw for cutting a plank, rather than the carpenter, do you see what I'm saying? The saw is the tool, but it's really the carpenter's action. If Neb truly had free will to destroy the Israelites or whatever, then it sounds like god showing up later and basically taking credit after the fact. If one football team spends 55 minutes absolutely obliterating their opponent, then decides their backup QB can take snaps to close the game out, the backup QB does not have a press conference about how much he contributed to the win, right?
Early gnostics suggested that Judas was doing God's will by betraying Jesus to the Roman authorities, a claim that mainstream Christianity rejected.
So who's right? Because it always seemed to me that it must have all been part of the plan, which means Judas bears no blame. So, the wives and Reuben: are they condemned to hell for being parts of god's plan, or did god say "Wow, Ruben is teeing off on those wives of Jacob's! I guess I am totally crushing retribution right now, but who knew that would be how!"
I'm afraid I can't make sense of this: if they're not willed by god, then how does he use them to accomplish anything? He's not involved with them, so it seems a little strange that he can somehow "take credit" as it were for this retribution. If he wants to say "I used Nebuchednezzar to punish you," then Neb is no longer fully accountable for his actions, as god is 'using' them. It'd be like blaming the saw for cutting a plank, rather than the carpenter, do you see what I'm saying? The saw is the tool, but it's really the carpenter's action. If Neb truly had free will to destroy the Israelites or whatever, then it sounds like god showing up later and basically taking credit after the fact. If one football team spends 55 minutes absolutely obliterating their opponent, then decides their backup QB can take snaps to close the game out, the backup QB does not have a press conference about how much he contributed to the win, right?
I'm not sure if this explanation will be sufficient but here goes:
Bob molested Joe's 12 year old daughter. Joe is furious, has homicidal tendencies, and wants revenge against Bob no matter what. Bob lives with his dad, Jared, a former Navy SEAL who is strong enough to protect him from Joe. Jared realizes that Bob is a scumbag who deserves whatever happens to him. Jared could either call the police on Bob or simply not intervene as Joe enters his house to kill Bob. Jared chooses the latter option.
Are you saying, in this scenario, that Jared's choices played absolutely no role in Bob's subsequent death at Joe's hands? Or that Joe, doing something that Jared wanted to happen, is therefore not culpable for murder?
-->
@Swagnarok
@ludofl3x
More simply, God could use Nebuchanezzar to punish Israel by not preventing Nebuchadnezzar invading Israel.
Had Nebuchnezar not desired invading Israel, God would doubtless have found an alternative punishment!
-->
@SkepticalOne
Is it wrong to cause suffering in order to save a life or prevent greater suffering?
Most moral problems are not choices between good and evil but choosing the lesser evil.
-->
@keithprosser
That is true.
-->
@RoderickSpode
They recorded it. But how do you know they didn't see anything wrong with it?
Didn't they record their god's thoughts? Why didn't they record his dissatisfaction with the deception?
-->
@Swagnarok
All persons will be held accountable for their wicked actions.
According to the writings of ignorant, primitive, superstitious savages thousands of years ago.
-->
@keithprosser
Most moral problems are not choices between good and evil but choosing the lesser evil.
Exactly.
-->
@SkepticalOne
It gets really tricky when it's two 'sorts of evil', such as 'emotional pain' v. 'physical pain' - how on earth do you compare those!
Good and bad don't matter.... it's evil that you have to worry about.
--> @Swagnarok
All persons will be held accountable for their wicked actions.
According to the writings of ignorant, primitive, superstitious savages thousands of years ago.
anybody have a response?
-->
@Outplayz
I agree with a lot of what you're saying.
Society sort of constructs a dividing line on who is good, and who is evil. And the line can be fairly fine, but falling on one side can cause a landslide.
An example would be the comedian Kramer from "Seinfeld". He's an evil racist because of his attempt to incorporate racial humor in his act (not that it wasn't extremely distasteful). But other comics like Lisa Lampanelli could say pretty much the same things, and get applauded for it.
Also, a certain amount of male chauvinism can be considered cool. But when it involves groping then that person has cross the line.
Also, a certain amount of male chauvinism can be considered cool. But when it involves groping then that person has cross the line.
-->
@keithprosser
Jacob didn't exactly suffer as a consequence of his dishonesty, did he?
I think he did. For a time he faced horrific fear of facing Esau again. And although he was granted a blessing for his tenacity in wrestling the angel, he was given a handi-cap (a limp) for the rest of his life.
Even King David, a man after God's heart had to face consequences from his lifestyle, like not being allowed to build the House of God. And Moses didn't get to see the promised land.
-->
@RoderickSpode
I've never watched much comedy so i don't know about those people... but i generally like dark humor so i don't mind some brutal content... but, if it's blatantly racist... it should be called out and i think most would. Comedians are usually pretty good about working the darker stuff in to be more enlightening then easily just one thing... but then again, there are idiots out there so what do i know. I don't like comedy too much so i'm not aware of many comedians... only that comedians are good at making you think about what you may have not thought about before. Those are generally the ones i like.
As to society defining evil... they are doing a piss poor job at it. It's really easy in my opinion, but it's really hard... evil is imprisoning another. If x person didn't exist, then y person would never feel imprisoned by x person. Now like everything in this reality, there are degrees to this, but obvious ones, murder, rape, torture, should be noted, and i think society has a good grasp on these ones. However, i do not think society has a good grasp on the not so obvious evils bc society is willingly giving power to other humans without putting any kinds of checks on them. Evil in this regard would be something like... a CEO hunting down the most vulnerable person working for them, making their life hell, then firing them when they become aware they're desperate... all for this CEO's amusement. These are evils too... people like that exist too. Even people that don't have power... like that girl that pushed her boyfriend to commit suicide bc she probably got some sort of satisfaction. I don't think society is as aware of this evil or has a good grasp on it.
Overall, i guess it's all relative. Does the world share my definition of evil? I don't know. But.. i don't think anyone wants to be imprisoned by another unless it's a choice (an interesting scenario). If you think about it... you've probably even imprisoned in some way another. Whether it was playing loud music at night not allowing someone to sleep, or being a rebel and making your mom worry... we all have it within us. It's just, some people are at the extremes of the spectrum... everyone not on the extreme of the spectrum should wake up... we should be fighting the apex evils and erasing them from society. We can make a world where the apex evils can't exist... but i think we are too distracted.