JESUS condemns entire cities to dreadful deaths in HELL

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--> @keithprosser
The relavant passage is ex. 7:2-4

"...you, and your brother Aaron must declare it to Pharaoh so that he will let the Israelites go out of his land. 3But I will harden Pharaoh’s heart, and though I will multiply My signs and wonders in the land of Egypt, 4 Pharaoh will not listen to you."

Clearly Pharaoh has free will - he will hear Moses and Aaron and could indeed choose to free - or not free - the Israelites based on their declaration.

However God intervenes to ensure Pharaoh will choose to not free the slaves.    So while God has grants us free will, he can impose his will on us when it suits His purpose to do so.  He is God, after all!   Gods can of sort of thing (allegedly).
hi Keith,

I know the passage - but you need to understand the idiom here. Hardening Pharaoh's heart is not about causing Pharaoh not to comply. It was about taking off Pharaoh's natural restraints. In other words, his restraint had actually prevented Pharaoh from being as evil as could be. And perhaps there was an element therein in which God was hopeful that Pharaoh might repent and turn to God or was at least giving him the opportunity to do so.  I think it is more likely that he restrained Pharaoh initially to protect both the Jewish people as well as the Egyptian people. Yet, as the passage indicates - Pharaoh hardened his own heart - and God hardened Pharaoh's heart - God let Pharaoh do what Pharaoh wanted. This of course led to the consequences of his actions.  

In a way this is what happens with us today.  Christians talk about the total depravity of sin. This does not mean we are as evil as we could be possibly be. It just means that we are so sinful that we are not holy. I use the analogy of a glass of water. We are the glass of water. And if we are without sin, we are a pure glass of water.  Now if we take a drop of ink and drop it into the glass, what happens to the purity of the water? One drops spreads throughout the entire glass of water - the water becomes tainted. It does not all become ink - but how many people would drink it even if they knew there was only one drop? This is total depravity of sin. Sin taints or touches every part of the person, hence its totality. Yet it does not make the person all evil. Yet, God wont drink the water - and we wont be considered holy. This is the picture of all humanity - yet some individuals if left to their own devices become more and more tainted - because of his jealousy, because of his anger, because of a whole lot of reasons - and while God prevented this becoming to bad - for the sake of his people - eventually he let Pharaoh do what he wanted to. 

In any event - Pharaoh' will so far as we are concerned was free - and therefore he was responsible for his own actions. God rightly and justly judged him and Egypt. 

the issue of free will is complex. What does free will mean? I think it is very difficult to define. In our society for instance - we have free will - or don't we? We could all run naked down the street - but we don't. Why not? What restrains us? Our governments restrain us - our morals restrain us  - our cultures restrain us - the weather restrains us - so many things. We could all kill someone else - but we don't - what restrains us from doing so? 

On another level - free will cannot make me do impossible things. I have the free will to fly - but I don't have the ability to do so. I have the free will to twist and distort and persuade and do magic - but I don't have the ability or capacity. 

In our legal systems we recognise intention and culpability. The state must prove intention, whether that be premeditated, or recklessness, or negligence to prove a crime. Yet, things like accident, or automatism, or mental health issues can rebut and refute this. 

Pharaoh was totally responsible for his sin. and whether God hardened his heart or not - whether this let his restrains of or made it more unlikely to resist - it was still up to Pharaoh. The bible does not say expressly that God made him do it, even though God knew he would do it. 

I have asked the author to distinguish between first and second causes. He has not done it yet. I doubt he has the ability to understand and differentiate between the two. Yet, the bible clearly talks about both.  Like free will and determinism, both are laid out in the Scriptures side by side - I don't have to understand how they meet or don't meet. Sometimes this causes me pain in the brain - but mostly I ask myself - why is it necessary for me to understand these things. God is not a human that I could understand him. And if I could understand him, then probably he is not a god. 
--> @Tradesecret



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Tradesecret,



RELATIVE TO EITHER ADAM OR EVE BEING FIRST TO TRANSGRESS, YOUR EMBARRASSING QUOTE STATES: “So tell us is Genesis right or is Paul right?”  

Well, you are going to have to tell us in which way Paul actually believes when he states in Romans 5:12 that it was man (Adam) that was responsible for the original sin, BUT, then in 2 Corinthians 11:3, Paul states with specificity that it was Eve that was responsible for the original sin: “But I am afraid that, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, your minds will be led astray from the simplicity and purity of devotion to Christ.” 

THEREFORE, USING YOUR OWN WORDS, WHICH RENDITION FROM PAUL IS CORRECT, WAS IT ADAM OR EVE THAT WAS RESPONSIBLE FOR THE ORIGINAL SIN?  AWAITING A COGENT RESPONSE THIS TIME, OKAY? 

Tradesecret, I really don’t like to take the time needed for FAKE Christians like you in showing you that you are one of the most biblically ignorant Christians on DebateArt, and yes, equal to Dr. Franklin!  You are either going to step up your game to save yourself further embarrassment amongst the members, or gracefully bow out and remain silent in disgrace, understood?



YOUR EMBARRASSING QUOTE: “Yes you are. Of course, you show a very shallow understanding of the original sin.”

To be correct in the details of the various understandings of the Original Sin in Christianity, one has to know what division of the Christian faith that one follows. Since YOU ARE TO SCARED AND EMBARRASSED to fill out your biography page, I don’t know your particular division of Christianity, therefore it cannot be addressed because of your child like inability to even “try” to fill out your DebateArt Bio Page, understood?  You must be HIDING something, aren’t you? Only Jesus knows why you are too embarrassed to fill out your biography page!



YOUR EVER SO WANTING AND BIBLE IGNORANT QUOTE: “Oh dear, it is a problem admitting I don't know everything. (meep meep) Ok, unlike you, I don't put myself on the same level as God. I don't have an answer for all the problems and complexities of the Bible.

I am truly sorry that you admit that you don’t know everything regarding the bible, but at the same time, you proffer that you do!  It is ungodly that you admit that the bible has problems and complexities, which is pure Devil Speak!  Tradesecret, when you read the Bible it gives you simple understanding, where no decoder rings, or crystal balls are needed to understand its simplicity.  In the passage of Deuteronomy 24:16, that you are having an embarrassing time with, it simply states what it does, understood? Parents are not to be put to death for their children, nor children put to death for their parents; each will die for their own sin.” (Deut 24:16) 

Therefore, in using this passage that is inspired by Jesus as Yahweh God incarnate, Adam and Eve could not pass on the original sin to their children and therefore mankind. Your Devil Speak apologetics on this topic may be entertaining to the equally inept of the Bible, but not for rational thinking TRUE Christians like myself, understood?   Remember one thing, even with your inept mental state relative to the scriptures, the main things are the plain things in the Bible and they are so simple that a young child can understand them.

Tradesecret, you are guilty of the following Jesus inspired passage:  Every word of God is tested; He is a shield to those who take refuge in Him. Do not add to His words Or He will reprove you, and you will be proved a liar.” (Proverbs 30: 5-6)



MY GODLY INSPIRED QUOTE: “Jesus creating sin is most importantly a part of Creation being wholeheartedly connected to the Original SIN of Eve’s transgression.”

YOUR UNGODLY QUOTE RELATIVE TO JESUS AS GOD CREATING SIN AT THE ONSET OF CREATION: “So you say, prove it. Sin is not a thing. It is not part of the creation. Paul tells us that sin was introduced by humanity. the only way around this is to admit Paul was wrong. Will you do that?

I did prove it in my previous post, whereas it must have been way over your head to comprehend its outcome. Since you state that sin IS NOT part of creation, then where did “original sin” come from subsequent to the fall of woman?

Since I have shown you that Paul contradicts himself with saying that it was man (Adam) that committed  the original sin, but then says it was EVE as the origin of the original sin!  Then, where do you stand as the outcome of Paul's said contradiction?  Take your time in explanation, okay?  BEGIN:



MY GODLY LOGICAL QUOTE: “At this specific time on the 6th day of Creation, no one knew about the concept of sin, EXCEPT JESUS SINCE HE IS OMNISCIENT AND KNEW IT WAS FORTHCOMING WHEN THE FALL OF MAN / WOMAN  HAPPENED!” 

YOUR SATANIC QUOTE IN RESPONSE TO MINE ABOVE: “The first people understood at this point that to disobey God meant death. It is inconceivable that they did not ask God what death was.  I am not persuaded that they did not understand the concept of sin. 

Oh my, where do I start with your unfounded perceived speculation to save yourself further embarrassment in front of the members of DebateArt?!  Firstly, it is not an absolute for A&E to ask Jesus what death was in anyway whatsoever!  Secondly, it is further not an absolute for A&E to understand the concept of sin, where you base your entire arguement upon PURE SPECULATION, where we are looking for absolutes like in other passages, understood? Huh? Maybe?

SIDEBAR:  Tradesecret, when are you coming out with yet another New Testament, where you will bring in your subjective opinions on how it should have been, where you are Satanically adding to Jesus' words to save FAKE Christians like yourself from further embarrassment?  Can I get a signed copy when you do, okay? Thank you.


CONTINUED >>>>>


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--> @Tradesecret


TRADESECRET, CONTINUED AT YOUR EXPENSE ONCE AGAIN ……



YOUR INEPT BIBLE QUOTE REGARDING SIN:  "Jesus did not create sin. Sin is not part of the created order. It is something altogether different.  Can you send me a box of sin, please? Or tell its colour? Or what is smells like? Or how big or small it is? It does not fit into the visible categories - but nor does it fit into other categories. Sin is not a thing. Therefore it is impossible for it to be created.  

Barring your comical and unfounded speculation once again, when Jesus can create evil in the same vein as your comical notion of having no smells, color, etc., then Jesus can create sin as well. 2+2=4. 

"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, AND I CREATE EVIL: I the LORD do all these things." ( Isaiah 45:7) 

"Shall there be EVIL in a city, and the Lord hath not done it?" (Amos 3:6)  

For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him.”  (Colossians 1:16) 

In the above passages, ALL THINGS includes the fact of EVIL AND SIN being created by our Yahweh/Jesus, GET IT?  Do you want to call Jesus a LIAR in the respect of the above passages? Yes?  Your bible ignorance, at your expense, is excused once again!  



YOUR DEFAMATORY QUOTE AGAINST JESUS: “I reject your assertion that because I did not use a capital in him that I have disrespected Jesus.”

The disrespectful mind and FAKE Christian like you would take your position in defaming Jesus by not capitalizing His pronoun name usage!  If you want to continue to slap Jesus in the face, then that is up to you! It is common and respectful to capitalize pronouns referring to our Jesus as Yahweh God incarnate, but to you it is NOT!  HOW DISRESPECTFUL TO JESUS CAN YOU GET, MINION OF SATAN!  

You are no more a TRUE Christian than the ever so biblically inept Dr. Franklin!



A FAKE CHRISTIAN, IF THERE EVER WAS ONE, QUOTE OF YOURS: “I have no reason to rephrase as I don't believe your incorrect assertions.  God is holy and just. He is compassionate and merciful.”

I understand that logic and biblical reality is out of your realm of thinking in being a FAKE Christian, that is a given, therefore you cannot accept through biblical axioms that our Jesus, as Yahweh God incarnate, is the following: greedy, jealous, selfish, self-centered, petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capricious, and malevolent God!

Unfortunately for you, your type of MO towards Christianity is making you talk like a psychotic idiot in changing the above descriptions of our Jesus to just “Holy and Just! and "Compassionate and Merciful," laughable at best! 

 

YOUR UNSCHOOLED QUOTE AGAIN: “judgment is distinguished from vindictiveness. Judgment and just is logically and definitively impossibly incompatible with murder.

Seriously, your sophomoric Grade School antics are growing tired within DebateArt!  

MURDER:  to kill (a human being) unlawfully and with premeditated malice to slaughter wantonly.

Our Jesus killed the 1st born of Egypt, STOP.  Our Jesus, unlawful or not, did this act with premeditated malice, STOP. Our Jesus slaughtered wantonly, STOP.  The first born SHOULD NOT be in the equation of having to be murdered in the first place, because they were not responsible as INNOCENT BABIES for what Pharaoh did to displease Jesus, STOP. 

With you taking the position of the above scenario as just “Judgment” by Jesus, is why the churches are losing their followers, because no one after following your position can remain intelligent looking in the aftermath, understood?



YOUR LAUGHABLE AND IGNORANT QUOTE:  God sent Jesus to deal with sin because sin offended God's holiness.

Okay, let me get this straight, so, Jesus, as Yahweh God incarnate, sent Himself to deal with sin because it offended Himself as Jesus being God?!  LOLOLOLOLOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!   Oh my, when will your biblical Comedy Act ever stop?!  Your laughable position is like Jesus looking skyward and saying: “Hello, are you there Dad, it's me, you!” Priceless!

Even though your bible ignorance, and rewriting of same, is without bounds, you do provide some great comedy at your expense! LOL!
 


YOUR EXTENDED BIBLE IGNORANCE:  There is a distinction between causing Pharaoh's sin and allowing Pharaoh to sin. Again it would be helpful if you googled - first and second causes which you seem unable to grasp.”

THE BOTTOM LINE IS JESUS IS OMNISCIENT, THEREFORE JESUS KNEW BEFOREHAND THAT PHARAOH WAS GOING TO SIN AND KNEW THAT HE WAS GOING TO HAVE TO MURDER THE 1ST BORN IN EGYPT!  

I suggest that you reread my statement in the previous post that explains this in a very simple way, that is beneficial to your perceived intelligence. 



YOUR REVEALING UNGODLY QUOTE:  “these are all wonderful verses and each of them are totally consistent with my position.”

As usual with FAKE Christians like you, the chickens always come home to roost at the expense of you this time!  You stated with specificity that your ignorant and specutative rants were “YOUR POSITION!” We thank you for admitting that they are NOT God’s position, but they are yours! Case closed!


Shhhhhhhhh, we all noticed that you didn’t make a comment about your lack of a biography page AGAIN, where it is as blank as your statements within this thread.  We can only wonder in what Jesus thinks of you for not telling others in what division of His faith that you follow. Only Jesus knows in what you are running away from as you disparage His faith once again by remaining silent towards your bio page!  BLASPHEME!


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--> @Tradesecret


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Tradesecret,


YOUR UNGODLY AND BIBLE IGNORANT QUOTE ONCE AGAIN!!!!:  "I have asked the author to distinguish between first and second causes. He has not done it yet. I doubt he has the ability to understand and differentiate between the two. Yet, the bible clearly talks about both.  Like free will and determinism, both are laid out in the Scriptures side by side - I don't have to understand how they meet or don't meet. Sometimes this causes me pain in the brain - but mostly I ask myself - why is it necessary for me to understand these things. God is not a human that I could understand him. And if I could understand him, then probably he is not a god. "

You can relieve your pain in what brain you have left by understanding what I have stated to you before! FREE WILL DOES NOT EXIST when Jesus is omniscient as explicitly shown in the passages below, therefore, why do you still make yourself dumbfounded to this biblical axiom?! HUH?


CHRISTIAN "FREE WILL" FOR DUMMIES: 
To the unbelievable ignorant FAKE Christians like Tradesecret that erroneously think they have “free will,” we don’t!   This is because of the simple concept that are Jewish Jesus is Yahweh God incarnate, and is OMNISCIENT, therefore He knows everything! (1 John 3:20). 

Jesus knows the minutest details of our lives in the past, present and future, for He mentions even knowing when you lose a single hair (Matthew 10:29-30).  Not only does our Jewish Jesus, as Yahweh  God incarnate, know everything that will occur with us until our demise (Isaiah 46:9-10), but He also knows your very thoughts, even before you speak them! (Psalm 139:4). FREE WILL? NOT!

Our Jewish Jesus, as God, even saw us in the womb, and being omniscient, anything less wouldn’t be the God of the Jews!  Jesus knew what we were going to do before time and when we are to die! (Psalm 139:16) “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you; I appointed you a prophet to the nations.” (Jeremiah 1:5)  Free Will? NOT!

Since our Jew Jesus omniscience prevails over our assumed actions, he has already determined in how we will act and what you will do IN THE FUTURE 24/7/365, and is basically the “Puppet Master” in pulling our strings as the “Puppet” to do what He wants, and not what we perceive to want! The Jew Jesus as God in being omniscient in even knowing whether we will be going to Heaven or Hell since the beginning of time!  Therefore, our wishful thinking of all of this forgiveness doctrine and other trite sayings of forgiveness is all for naught. (Proverbs 16:33)


If our hearts condemn us, we know that God is greater than our hearts, and he knows everything.” (1 John 3:20)

Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? Yet not one of them will fall to the ground outside your Father’s care. And even the very hairs of your head are all numbered.” (Matthew 10:29-30)

Remember the former things, those of long ago; I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me. I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come.” (Isaiah 46:9-10)

Oh Lord, You have searched me and known me. You know when I sit down and when I rise up; You understand my thought from afar. You scrutinize my path and my lying down, And are intimately acquainted with ALL my ways.” (Psalm 139:1-3)

“Before a word is on my tongue you, Lord, know it completely.” (Psalm 139:4)

Your eyes have seen my unformed substance; And in Your book were all written.  The days that were ordained for me, When as yet there was not one of them.” (Psalm 139:16)

“The lot is cast into the lap, but its every decision is from the Lord.” (Psalm 16:33)


THE TIME OF THE CHRISTIANS DEMISE AND WHETHER WE ARE GOING TO HEAVEN OR HELL HAS ALREADY BEEN DETERMINED BY OUR JEW GOD NAMED JESUS SINCE THE BEGINNING, AND WE HAVE NO CONTROL OVER IT, PERIOD! SCARY THOUGHTS, AREN’T THEY?!  BUT, THIS IS WHAT A TRUE CHRISTIAN, LIKE MYSELF, HAVE TO ACCEPT IF WE WANT TO FOLLOW OUR SERIAL KILLER SAVIOR, JESUS THE CHRIST, PRAISE!



*************  Tradesecret, heads up, is it possible that you can give us a break from your totally ignorant perceived bible knowledge? I thank you in advance if you will perform this act for the members of DebateArt Religion Forum. It would certainly be appreciated. **************


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--> @BrotherDThomas
“So is Genesis right or is Paul right?” 
Well, … in Romans 5:12 it was man (Adam) that was responsiblefor the original sin, BUT, in 2 Corinthians 11:3, it was Eve that wasresponsible for the original sin:
You don't even believe in original sin so it is deceitfulfor you to suggest that Paul in the latter verse is attributing it to Eve.  Everyone noticed your running away.  Genesis and Paul were in accord with eachother.   Paul does not suggest Eve wasresponsible for the Original sin. He says Eve was deceived. Adam is responsible.
“Oh dear, it is a problem admitting I don't knoweverything.
I am truly sorry that you admit that you don’t knoweverything regarding the bible, but at the same time, you proffer that youdo!  It is ungodly that you admit thatthe bible has problems and complexities, which is pure Devil Speak!    In Deuteronomy 24:16, it simply states whatit does. “Parents are not to be put to death for their children, nor childrenput to death for their parents; each will die for their own sin.” (Deut 24:16)
Firstly, stop telling lies.  I don't proffer to know everything in thebible. Secondly, conceding that the bible contains complexities and problemsfor the reader is not devil speak. Even Peter said Paul spoke difficult things-  Thirdly, I take the view that Deut24:16 is a passage directed towards the children of Israel.  Its direction does not apply to God. 
Therefore, in using this passage that is inspired by Jesusas Yahweh God incarnate, Adam and Eve could not pass on the original sin totheir children and therefore mankind. ...  Remember one thing, ..., the main things are the plain things in theBible and they are so.
You don't believe in original sin. you have not proved ityet. You confuse covenant headship with sin. Is this why you ran away from myquestion to you to discuss the difference between sin and sins?
“Jesus creating sin is most importantly a part of Creationbeing wholeheartedly connected to the Original SIN of Eve’s transgression.”
Sin was not part of the creation. At the end of thecreation,God called all that he created good and very good. If sin was part ofthis then sin is good. If this is the case, why does Jesus need to die forpeople's sin? In any event, sin is defined as "that which falls short ofGod's standards". So, if God created sin - can you explain how a perfectGod could do anything beneath his own perfect standards?
“So you say, prove it. Sin is not a thing. It is not partof the creation. Paul tells us that sin was introduced by humanity. the onlyway around this is to admit Paul was wrong. Will you do that?
I did prove it in my previous post, whereas it must havebeen way over your head to comprehend its outcome. Since you state that sin ISNOT part of creation, then where did “original sin” come from subsequent to thefall of woman?
What did you prove? Did you prove Paul wrong? Seriously!So you don't believe that Paul's words are the words of God? You really have aproblem reading and understanding. Again let me repeat it - God did not createsin. It was not part of the original creation. Everything God made was good andvery good. Sin is by its definition not good. It is the error that fallsbeneath God's standard. So if God created sin in accordance with yourridiculous assertion - then God fell beneath his own standards and lied.
 
The original sin as taught by the church occurred whenAdam ate of the fruit. It is true that Eve ate prior to Adam - and it is alsotrue that first can mean original. (it does not always mean first inchronological order sometimes it has to do with authoritative order - a similarnotion is about how Jesus is the first born son - not meaning first inchronological order but in respect of pre-eminence.) In this case however - itis Adam who is held responsible for the original sin - by representation all ofhis covenant - wife and children. They became dead to God - covenantal death.But you still need to be able to distinguish between sin and sins. And you justkeep running away from the question.  Adam committed the original sin as covenant head. Eve sinned like youand me. There is a difference. We don' t commit the original sin over and overagain. but we do sin. You need to be able distinguish between the two - and itseems you are unable to do so.
I have shown you that Paul contradicts himself with sayingthat it was man (Adam) that committed  the original sin, but then says it was EVE as the origin of the originalsin!  Then, where do you stand as theoutcome of Paul's said contradiction? 
Well actually you did not show how Paul contradictshimself. You simply mixed up two completely different concepts - a common errorand mistake of ignorant people - and tried to suggest that one contradicts eachother. I have explained it.  Now it isyour turn.  
“At this specific time on the 6th day of Creation, no oneknew about the concept of sin, EXCEPT JESUS SINCE HE IS OMNISCIENT AND KNEW ITWAS FORTHCOMING WHEN THE FALL OF MAN / WOMAN  HAPPENED!”
“The first people understood at this point that to disobey Godmeant death. It is inconceivable that they did not ask God what death was.  I am not persuaded that they did notunderstand the concept of sin.
Firstly, it is not an absolute for A&E to ask Jesus whatdeath was in anyway whatsoever!  Secondly, it is further not an absolute for A&E to understand theconcept of sin, where you base your entire argument upon PURE SPECULATION,
So you concede it is not an absolute - you agree that myposition is plausible. My position is not speculation. Adam knew it was wrongto eat the fruit. For him to know it was wrong meant he must have understoodthat concept. Furthermore - he knew it would bring him death. For that to be areal threat - he must have known what death was. so Adam knew wrong and rightbefore the fall - he knew about sin and he knew what it would bring. this isnot speculation - it is there in the bible - perhaps you should read it.

--> @BrotherDThomas
Jesus did not create sin. Sin is not part of the created order. Therefore it is impossible for it to be created.  

Barring your comical and unfounded speculation once again, when Jesus can create evil in the same vein as your comical notion of having no smells, color, etc., then Jesus can create sin as well. 2+2=4. 
You are mixing up two completely different concepts. God cannot sin. He cannot create sin. Sin is a falling beneath God's standards - that is its definition - so it is logically and conceptually impossible for God to do or create it.  On the other hand - you quote the standard Isaiah 45 and Amos references to God creating or making evil. You need to establish that evil is the same as sin. I don't take the view that the two things are the same at all.

For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him.”  (Colossians 1:16) 

This verse is NOT talking about sin. Sin is not a thing. That is something you just don't get. Evil does not have to fall beneath God's standards - but sin does. Evil is also a perception. What is evil to me may be good to someone else.  What is sin to me is always sin against God. 

I have no reason to rephrase as I don't believe your incorrect assertions.  God is holy and just. He is compassionate and merciful.”

I understand that logic and biblical reality is out of your realm of thinking in being a FAKE Christian, that is a given, therefore you cannot accept through biblical axioms that our Jesus, as Yahweh God incarnate, is the following: greedy, jealous, selfish, self-centered, petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capricious, and malevolent God!
That may well be your god - but this is not the God of the bible. In fact your god sounds like Satan - and I am confident that your god will spend eternity in the Hells of Fire which has been reserved for him.  

“judgment is distinguished from vindictiveness. Judgment and just is logically and definitively impossibly incompatible with murder.

MURDER:  to kill (a human being) unlawfully and with premeditated malice to slaughter wantonly.
Actually murder is the killing of a human by a human. And it is not just the killing - but an "unlawful" killing.  This is where your ignorance of law is laughable. Did you know that cows and horses and dogs cannot be charged with murder, nor can cars or machines or computers or even robots? God is not a human.  But not just this element escapes you - but the next one does as well. UNLAWFUL. You seem to think unlawful is irrelevant. You are not a theologian. You are not a lawyer. You are simply a fool.  God is lawfully able to put to death any sinner on this planet. 
With you taking the position of the above scenario as just “Judgment” by Jesus, is why the churches are losing their followers, because no one after following your position can remain intelligent looking in the aftermath, understood?
My church is growing. And it is because we teach the bible. Our world relies on a just system. God has a just system. 

God sent Jesus to deal with sin because sin offended God's holiness.

The bible teaches the Trinity. Your humour is not funny. 

There is a distinction between causing Pharaoh's sin and allowing Pharaoh to sin. Again it would be helpful if you googled - first and second causes which you seem unable to grasp.”

THE BOTTOM LINE IS JESUS IS OMNISCIENT, THEREFORE JESUS KNEW BEFOREHAND THAT PHARAOH WAS GOING TO SIN AND KNEW THAT HE WAS GOING TO HAVE TO MURDER THE 1ST BORN IN EGYPT!  
first and second causes??????? figure out what it means. 

You really don't like it when people prove you wrong. You turn into a dunderhead. 


--> @BrotherDThomas
"I have asked the author to distinguish between first and second causes. He has not done it yet. I doubt he has the ability to understand and differentiate between the two. Yet, the bible clearly talks about both.  Like free will and determinism, both are laid out in the Scriptures side by side - I don't have to understand how they meet or don't meet. Sometimes this causes me pain in the brain - but mostly I ask myself - why is it necessary for me to understand these things. God is not a human that I could understand him. And if I could understand him, then probably he is not a god. "

FREE WILL DOES NOT EXIST
If you read my post above you will know I said free will is complex. Yet without free will - man is not responsible for his sin. This is the notion you have to learn to comprehend. In any event, you do believe in free will - otherwise every comment on here directed at anyone is pointless. So stop lying. 

CHRISTIAN "FREE WILL" FOR DUMMIES: 
This is because of the simple concept that are Jewish Jesus is Yahweh God incarnate, and is OMNISCIENT, therefore He knows everything! (1 John 3:20). 
Just because Jesus knows everything does not mean we don't have free will. 

Jesus knows the minutest details of our lives in the past, present and future, for He mentions even knowing when you lose a single hair (Matthew 10:29-30).  Not only does our Jewish Jesus, as Yahweh  God incarnate, know everything that will occur with us until our demise (Isaiah 46:9-10), but He also knows your very thoughts, even before you speak them! (Psalm 139:4). FREE WILL? NOT!
just because God knows all things - does not mean we don't have free will.  God holds us responsible for our choices. Not because of his choices. 

Our Jewish Jesus, as God, even saw us in the womb, and being omniscient, anything less wouldn’t be the God of the Jews!  Jesus knew what we were going to do before time and when we are to die! (Psalm 139:16) “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you; I appointed you a prophet to the nations.” (Jeremiah 1:5)  Free Will? NOT!
I repeat what I said above. 

Everyone of those verses I refer to as well in order to refute persons who think they can will themselves into Heaven. I think free will is true - but I don't think free will is unlimited. 

We have the free will to do what we want to- this is why we are responsible for own sins - and why God is just in punishing sin. Yet, I don't agree that we have the free will to do the right thing. Our sin nature - inherited from Adam makes us do what we want for ourselves. But it never wants to repent before a holy God.  Like the bank robber walking out a bank with a gun and a bag of money - we see God the holy police man - and what do we do? What should we do - we should drop the bag and the money - walk across to the police officer and hand ourselves in. What do we do? We run for the hills. Why? Because we see God as the big bad policeman who is going to throw us into prison. I think that is the picture of God that you present. A God who cannot be trusted - a God who is vindictive. A God who is not consistent. A god who is corrupt and evil.  Yet the bible talks of a God who is just and holy but one who is also merciful and loving. You never talk of a loving God, only an evil God. 

We cant come to God - because we don't want to come to God. Yet God calls us to himself through his son who died on the cross for the sins of the world. By trusting in Jesus - that he suffered and died for my sins - I don't have to see God as the police in the sky anymore - because the just God has had my sins dealt with - and offers me grace and mercy. Free will is complex.  Yet without it - God is EVIL and untrustworthy. 

--> @Tradesecret
Sin is only an assumption.

Which varies, depending on how we were conditioned.
--> @zedvictor4
Sin is only an assumption.

Which varies, depending on how we were conditioned.
Sin is not an assumption. Sin is anything that falls short of the standards of God. Now we might in our culture because we have been conditioned think that sin is an assumption and depends upon how we were conditioned - but that is a cultural matter.  It does not change the fact that sin itself does have a definition. 

Typically people in our culture laugh at sin. Either we minimise or we exaggerate. Either it becomes a small white lie or it is murder. In either event - we don't think it is relevant to us. Yet, sin is the problem with this world. If we were to get rid of sin - then the world would be perfect. In other words, it is the error that prevents the world from being perfect. This makes sense because sin is defined as the falling short of the perfect standard of God. 

Its historic meaning is pictured by an arrow falling short of its target. If the arrow hits the target there is no sin. If it falls short - there is sin. 

Sin however is an offence against God. If you don't believe in God, then you don't believe in sin. You might believe in evil or you might believe that people do awful and immoral things - and you might even call it sin for want of a better word - but that in my understanding of the bible is not sin. It is better termed an  offence.  In that situation it would be more helpful to talk about sin being an assumption or a conditioning.  
--> @Tradesecret, @zedvictor4



.
Tradesecret,



IN PART, YOUR LAUGHABLE AND LYING POST #55:  “You don't even believe in original sin so it is deceitfulfor you to suggest that Paul in the latter verse is attributing it to Eve.  Everyone noticed your running away.  Genesis and Paul were in accord with eachother.   Paul does not suggest Eve wasresponsible for the Original sin. He says Eve was deceived. Adam is responsible.’

To make it somewhat easier for you, I’ll address your blatant bible ignorance one topic at a time. You can thank me later.


How much proverbial egg can you withstand upon your face because of your traditional insidious wishful thinking and your total bible ignorance pertaining to EVE not initiating the original sin?  Don’t you realize the membership is watching your outright stupidity regarding this topic?

You comically stated that “He says Eve was deceived. Adam is responsible." Huh?  Read the passages below, therefore how can Adam be responsible subsequent to EVE eating the forbidden fruit FIRST AND FORMOST in initiating the original sin! Hello, anybody home today, obviously not! How utterly embarrassing for you once again!


1.  Who ate the forbidden fruit FIRST before Adam did, therefore initiating the original sin FIRST?  Correct, it was EVE as the transgressor

"When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it.” ( Genesis 3:6))


2.  Who agreed that EVE ate the forbidden fruit FIRST and then gave it to Adam? Correct, it was Jesus with His inspired word!

“To Adam he said, “Because you listened to your wife and ate fruit from the tree about which I commanded you, ‘You must not eat from it,’ (Genesis 3:17)


3.  Who agreed that Adam was not deceived, but EVE was the FIRST to be deceived and transgress in initiating the original sin?  Correct, it was Timothy!  

“And Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor.” (1 Timothy 2:14)


4.  Who agreed with the aforementioned passages that EVE was the FIRST to sin, therefore being the originator of original sin?  Correct, it was Paul!  

“But I am afraid that, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, your minds will be led astray from the simplicity and purity of devotion to Christ.” ( 2 Corinthians 11:3)

To help you along in truly understanding the English language and reading comprehension, I want you to join and complete an online "Reading Comprehension Class" before you remove one foot to insert the other again regarding the verses above, agreed?  The following link will take you to your severely needed class: https://www.universalclass.com/i/course/reading-comprehension-101.htm

Satan only knows in how you can live with such stupidity relative to the JUDEO-Christian bible, where you fall to tradition over the centuries, instead of actually reading the bible yourself. You are an embarrassment to all Christians by calling Jesus’ inspired words herein AS LIES relative to EVE being the culprit to initiating original sin!   Rest assured, you will pay upon Judgment Day!  Does the Unpardonable Sin ring a bell? Yeah, it does!


Once again, may I plead with you to give this forum a needed break from your Devil Speak and bible ignorance? It would certainly be appreciated, thanking you in advance. 


.

--> @BrotherDThomas
  “You don't even believe in original sin so it is deceitfulfor you to suggest that Paul in the latter verse is attributing it to Eve.  Everyone noticed your running away.  Genesis and Paul were in accord with eachother.   Paul does not suggest Eve wasresponsible for the Original sin. He says Eve was deceived. Adam is responsible.’

You comically stated that “He says Eve was deceived. Adam is responsible." Huh?  Read the passages below, therefore how can Adam be responsible subsequent to EVE eating the forbidden fruit FIRST AND FORMOST in initiating the original sin!
Yes let me repeat myself. Obviously you are having trouble grasping what I am saying.  Paul tells us that sin entered through one man - Adam. Now so far you have not denied this doctrine although you clearly do not believe it, thus denying the WORD of God. I have no issue with Eve eating the fruit first. Can you show anywhere where what she did is called sin? Or will you just assume it? For the record I think it was sin - but not the original sin. Hence she cannot be responsible for the original sin. 

1.  Who ate the forbidden fruit FIRST before Adam did, therefore initiating the original sin FIRST?  Correct, it was EVE as the transgressor

"When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it.” ( Genesis 3:6))

I don't have an issue with Eve eating first. But where is it called sin? Did Eve transgress the covenant of works? Absolutely. But is it called sin? And is what she did "the original sin". I say no. Adam committed the original sin. 

2.  Who agreed that EVE ate the forbidden fruit FIRST and then gave it to Adam? Correct, it was Jesus with His inspired word!

“To Adam he said, “Because you listened to your wife and ate fruit from the tree about which I commanded you, ‘You must not eat from it,’ (Genesis 3:17)
Again I have no issue with agreeing that Eve ate the forbidden fruit first and that she gave it to Adam. But is it called sin? Or are you just making it up as you go along? I know you really need it to be sin - but is it ever called sin? 

3.  Who agreed that Adam was not deceived, but EVE was the FIRST to be deceived and transgress in initiating the original sin?  Correct, it was Timothy!  

“And Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor.” (1 Timothy 2:14)
Boring. Paul told Timothy that Adam was not deceived but Eve did. She transgressed. But is it ever called sin? And was what she did the original sin? I say no. Why? Because Adam was the head of the home. And if Adam had acted like a man - he would have told her to repent of her sin - and beg for forgiveness from God. She would have died - and sin would not have been passed on from generation to generation. Adam was the covenant representative of the family. It was when the head of the family sinned - it became original sin. Again - I ask you - explain the difference between sin and sins. Your ignorance and avoidance of this question is making you look like a bigger fool than you need to be. 

4.  Who agreed with the aforementioned passages that EVE was the FIRST to sin, therefore being the originator of original sin?  Correct, it was Paul!  

“But I am afraid that, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, your minds will be led astray from the simplicity and purity of devotion to Christ.” ( 2 Corinthians 11:3)
The verse does not say that Eve sinned first. It says she was deceived and ate the fruit first. She was led astray and I agree it was into sin - but it was not original sin. Again you have no clue. Until you can distinguish between sin and sins - you live in ignorance. Have you heard of the word covenant? 


--> @Tradesecret
God let Pharaoh do what Pharaoh wanted
We aren't told what Pharaoh would have done if God had not hardened his heart!   Given that God took the trouble to do so implies Pharaoh might well have let the Israelites go.  God forced Pharaoh to do what God wanted him to do on that specific occasion.

We are talking about a story written before philosophers had spilt gallons of ink on 'free will'.  I doubt the scribes who wrote Exodus ever discussed 'free will'!  

--> @BrotherDThomas
Yor lying
--> @Tradesecret



.
Tradesecret,


YOUR INEPT QUOTE: “What did you prove? Did you prove Paul wrong? Seriously!So you don't believe that Paul's words are the words of God? You really have aproblem reading and understanding.”

Barring your horrific spelling and where you cannot separate words, conversely, don’t you believe that Timothys words are the words of Jesus as well when he stated that Adam was not deceived, but Eve was the one deceived and transgressed FIRST?  You are really making a fool of yourself in your posts of late!  LOL


YOUR REVEALING QUOTE MAKING WOMEN 2ND CLASS: “Adam committed the original sin as covenant head.”

I see, therefore this is the start of making women ruled by their husbands!  So this is where it started that women are 2nd class citizens, not only towards their husbands, but also in the eyes of Jesus since He created the covenant situation in the first place.  No wonder the bible treats women in disrespect!


YOUR CONTINUED BIBLE IGNORANT QUOTE: “Adam knew it was wrongto eat the fruit.

NO, he did not know it was wrong because HE HAD YET TO EAT THE FRUIT FROM THE TREE OF KNOWLEDGE WHEN EVE HANDED IT TO HIM TO KNOW RIGHT FROM WRONG, GET IT?  ARE YOU THAT DUMBFOUNDED TO MAKE AN IGNORANT STATEMENT LIKE THAT? OBVIOUSLY YOU ARE!   Jesus H. Christ, why do you let yourself be made the bible ignorant fool all the time?


Here is my gobbly-gook presentation on the whole Adam and Eve narrative that is equal to your comical presentations:

The bottom line is Eve ate the forbidden fruit FIRST, therefore she committed the original sin FIRST, barring any perceived notion of a covenant  where Adam HAS YET TO RULE OVER HER AT THIS TIME!!! GET IT? Original sin was initiated in the Garden of Eden, otherwise, why do they call it the "FALL?"

Besides, the original sin scenario was all a setup by Jesus as our Jewish Yahweh God incarnate because He created the serpent known as Satan in the first place and allowed it to deceive Eve, what a nice Guy, huh?  Also, in Jesus being omniscient, He knew beforehand that Eve was going to go against His command, and subsequently Adam as well relative to eating from the Tree of Knowledge! I am telling you, Jesus was a real schemer!  

Since the earth was void before the creation of man and woman, Jesus as God was seemingly bored, so He took his vindictive modus operandi out upon His first couple by knowingly having them initiate the original sin so He could place guilt upon them and their following earthly passengers!  Therefore, He now had something to do until the end of time, especially when Jesus brutally murdered His creation in the following years, praise!



TRADESECRET:   Since you are too SCARED to fill out a biography page, in what division of Christianity do you follow? Are you a Lutheran, Catholic, Baptist, JW, or?


.




--> @Tradesecret


.
Tradesecret,

YOUR MOST REVEALING QUOTE RELATIVE TO FREE WILL IN YOUR POST #57!!!!!! : " I think free will is true"

Thats it!  You "THINK" free will is true?  You are NOT in an absolute state on this topic?!  When one "THINKS" it is true shows that they are in doubt! You are now DONE in holding any further discussion on the topic of Free Will because you showed your hand to all! LOL!

As explicitly shown on my godly free will topic, YOU DO NOT HAVE FREE WILL IF YOU ARE A CHRISTIAN, PERIOD!  Now, I told you before to take a Reading Comprehension Class so you won't be made the Bible fool all the time, remember?  Again I will give you an online class that you desperately need so as to not be so biblically ignorant!  

Reading Comprehension 101

You have yet to realize that Jesus is watching you make a mockery of His Christianity because of your bible ignorance! (Hebrews 4:13)



.



--> @BrotherDThomas
TRADESECRET:   Since you are too SCARED to fill out a biography page, in what division of Christianity do you follow? Are you a Lutheran, Catholic, Baptist, JW, or?


Tradesecret claims he is a, "For the record, I am not a Catholic. I am a protestant. Indeed a Presbyterian - in Australia. We are reformed and reforming if that makes sense."


--> @Harikrish, @Tradesecret


Harikrish,

WTF?!  If this is true that the biblically dumbfounded Tradesecret is a member of the UNGODLY DEMONIC PRESBYTERIAN CHURCH, then it is no wonder he doesn't accept Jesus' true words as shown within the true scriptures, but instead, he tries to rewrite them as if they were spoken by Satan himself!

The Satanic PRESBIES have been reforming their pagan church since it's beginning in the mid 1500's, where they are still changing Jesus' true words today!  What Christian church have you heard of that accepts Gay Marriage, and still believes in Jesus the Christ where He said that all gays should be murdered and their blood shall be upon them?  Yes, the pagan Presbyterian Church, BLASPHEME!!!

Thanks for the "heads up," where since his biography page is as vacant as his mind regarding the Bible, I am sure he wouldn't have told me his particular division of Christianity being a Presbie because he is probably to embarrassed about it to have told me. What a joke.


.

--> @Tradesecret
Yep. 

A perfect example of how modified conditioning, can results in a slightly different output..

You have been conditioned to assume that god data is externally meaningful and so relate sin to it.

Whereas I do not assume that god data has an external meaning. Therefore god and sin are just held as internal data.





--> @keithprosser
We aren't told what Pharaoh would have done if God had not hardened his heart!   Given that God took the trouble to do so implies Pharaoh might well have let the Israelites go.  God forced Pharaoh to do what God wanted him to do on that specific occasion.

We are talking about a story written before philosophers had spilt gallons of ink on 'free will'.  I doubt the scribes who wrote Exodus ever discussed 'free will'! 

That just shows that you don't understand the Hebrew word in question.  The word means - let of the shackles. It is a picture of God holding Pharaoh back like the dog on a chain - and then letting him of the leash. Or like God is a dam holding back water and then opens the gates. God was holding Pharaoh back from acting consistent with his nature - and then let him of the chain to do whatever Pharaoh wanted to do. 

This is the meaning of the words in the Hebrew. You cant just ignore their meaning - by referring to the English translation of an idiom. Or I suppose you can. The point is though - God did not force Pharaoh to do what he did - prior to that time God's force - was a holding back - and restrain - a keeping a dog on the chain. 
--> @BrotherDThomas
“What did you prove? Did you prove Paul wrong? Seriously!So you don't believe that Paul's words are the words of God? You really have aproblem reading and understanding.”

Barring your horrific spelling and where you cannot separate words, conversely, don’t you believe that Timothys words are the words of Jesus as well when he stated that Adam was not deceived, but Eve was the one deceived and transgressed FIRST? 
The book of Timothy was written by Paul, not Timothy. I explained I don't have an issue with Paul's words. I agreed that Eve transgressed first. I just stated that her sin was not the original sin - the one that cause humanity to fall. For the record - it is probably correct to state the Satan sinned first. 

“Adam committed the original sin as covenant head.”

I see, therefore this is the start of making women ruled by their husbands! 
Actually, I think her sin enabled that to take place. Yet, Adam being the head or ruler does not make females inferior or children for that matter. It just means that Adam was responsible for what happened. 

“Adam knew it was wrong to eat the fruit.

NO, he did not know it was wrong because HE HAD YET TO EAT THE FRUIT FROM THE TREE OF KNOWLEDGE WHEN EVE HANDED IT TO HIM TO KNOW RIGHT FROM WRONG, GET IT?  
The tree of the knowledge of good and evil did not give him the capacity to know wrong, it gave him the capacity to decide what was right and wrong. Adam knew it was wrong - why else would Eve question Satan? Also - they knew their was a consequence of eating it - death. It is just silly to say Adam did not know it was wrong. 

The bottom line is Eve ate the forbidden fruit FIRST, therefore she committed the original sin FIRST, barring any perceived notion of a covenant  where Adam HAS YET TO RULE OVER HER AT THIS TIME!!! GET IT? Original sin was initiated in the Garden of Eden, otherwise, why do they call it the "FALL?"
I never disagreed that Eve sinned first. I have maintained that her sin was not the original sin. Yes, first in time can mean original for her - but it does not follow that it was original for humanity.  This is why I say to you: distinguish sin from sins. You still have not because your brain does not understand what the bible talks about. Adam's sin according to Paul brought death into the world, not Eve's. You have yet to explain that point. I have. 

Besides, the original sin scenario was all a setup by Jesus as our Jewish Yahweh God incarnate because He created the serpent known as Satan in the first place and allowed it to deceive Eve.  Also, in Jesus being omniscient, He knew beforehand that Eve was going to go against His command, and subsequently Adam as well relative to eating from the Tree of Knowledge!  
All those things only demonstrate that God knows all things and is omniscient. It might even go towards first causes. but it does not go at all towards understanding second causes and responsibility. Your ignorance is astounding. 


TRADESECRET:   Since you are too SCARED to fill out a biography page, in what division of Christianity do you follow? Are you a Lutheran, Catholic, Baptist, JW, or?
No - what have I to be scared about. Why would I give you any opportunity to squirm out of discussing these matters - and give you information so you can attack me ad hominin? Because that is what you will do immediately you know my background - because that is how people like you think you can argue. You don't have an argument against my points - so you attack me or my church or my background. I wonder if that is what you will do? 
--> @Tradesecret
Strong’s Definitions
קָשָׁה qâshâh, kaw-shaw'; a primitive root; properly, to be dense, i.e. tough or severe (in various applications):—be cruel, be fiercer, make grievous, be ((ask a), be in, have, seem, would) hard(-en, (labour), -ly, thing), be sore, (be, make) stiff(-en, (-necked)). LINK

@keithprosser
--> @Tradesecret
I'm very ready to admit I know nothing about idioms in ancient Hebrew!  I'd be interested to know how you got your expertise - or are you relying on the say-so of an unnamed 'expert'?

Are you sure you're not adopting an interpretation because it suits your prejudice?   In any case I don't see a problem... it's only a story!



--> @BrotherDThomas
 Don’t you realize the membership is watching your outright stupidity regarding this topic?

I get a lot more satisfaction and hilarity watching yours. 
--> @Tradesecret
therefore she committed the original sin FIRST
It really gets my goat when people use the term 'original sin' wrongly!

'Original sin' is the state of sinfulness we are all born with - it is 'original sin' in the sense it belongs to our beginning (origin) to be a person.

It doesn't refer to the 'first sin ever commited'. 

It's like 'immaculate conception' - Jesus was not the subject of 'immaculate conception'.  

Mary - and no-one else - was born without original sin (see above!).   Mary was 'immaculately conceived' in her mother's womb.  This was so the mother of jesus was herself sinless.

So Adam and Eve did not commit the 'original sin' and 'immaculate conception' is not an alterative term for 'virgin birth'.

</peeve>




--> @Stephen


Stephen,


Shhhhhhhh, I have already applied enough proverbial egg upon your face for a lifetime regarding your blatant bible ignorance and perceived knowledge of Christianity, therefore, to save even further embarrassment, just STFU and you will be better off, understood?  Good.


.