2020 Presidents?

Author: Gatorade

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zedvictor4
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@WaterPhoenix
Ok so Trump's good entertainment.

But nonetheless has proven to be something of an illiterate numpty.

Is this really what you would base your political decisions and aspirations upon.

Alec
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@HistoryBuff
A fetus is human in the same sense that a cancerous tumor is human.

Cancer cells aren't specialized.  A fetus's cells are.

Life is complicated. We need a dividing between cluster of cells of a person. It obviously isn't at conception.
I'm not saying an zygote is a human at conception, so there's some common ground.  Also, neither one of us is advocating for abortion until birth, because the fetus is too human to be legally killed.  I am saying is that a 5 week fetus is a human.

If you don't want to go through a long, painful, difficult, expensive and potentially life threatening medical condition against your will then you shouldn't have to.
Pregnancy isn't even that painful.  A little painful, maybe, but if it was super unbearably painful, you would hear women scream like they were on the Cruziatitis curse for 9 months.  They may do something like this during labor, but this is for only 24 hours.  The odds of dying from a pregnancy are very small.  Pregnancy is expensive, but it's what insurance is for.

 You should not have the ability to tell her she doesn't have rights. 
The woman still retains many rights.  They get the right to vote, to work, to earn money, they can the right to refuse sex, and a bunch of others that I haven't listed.  I even am fine with women having certain rights that they don't already have such as with weed.  However, killing a fetal human being goes too far.


Alec
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@dustryder
They mean that fetuses lack the characteristics of humanity typically attributed to persons.
What characteristic are you referring too?  A fetus has specialized cells.

dustryder
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@Alec
The characteristics I refer to are the displays of sophisticated cognitive ability that uniquely mark us as human beings. For example, self-awareness, individuality and/or agency are some of the criteria that have been used to describe personhood.
Alec
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@dustryder
self-awareness
A post born baby is not self aware of their existence.  They aren't aware about almost anything.  Is it acceptable to kill a post born baby?

individuality
A fetus is an individual.  More over, since twins aren't as individual as a fetus, is it okay to kill Twins?  No, because individualism is not a basis for homicide.  

and/or agency 
What exactly is agency?
WaterPhoenix
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@zedvictor4
Basically Trump isn't really doing anything all that big and while I think some things need to be changed it's better than any of those Democratic candidates who want to send America even deeper into the hellhole.
dustryder
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@Alec
So the point isn't to treat each example as an inclusive or exclusive criteria on it's own, but to demonstrate a group of features that mark us as people. The sufficiency of this group of features as a decider of humanity cannot he described scientifically which is my point
bmdrocks21
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@Greyparrot
Roe V Wade must be overturned in order to force Congress to pass a pro-abortion bill.

Or just let it be a state issue like most things should be.
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@Alec
 3/10

That is a decent minority being "pro-life".

 I think abortion will eventually be banned because the rates for it are falling and contraception is more widely available.
I don't think so. We just keep subsidizing single motherhood with welfare checks, so it is just crowding out abortion at the moment.

Thoughts?

Little confused where you are getting your numbers.
Greyparrot
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@bmdrocks21
Nah, there's probably a 2/3 consensus across the country to pass an amendment allowing abortions.
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@Greyparrot
I don't doubt that there could be that consensus, necessarily. I'm saying this should not be a federal issue.

I would expect them to pass a federal bill perhaps. People don't want to alienate the religious base with something like an amendment.

Roe v. Wade says that there can't be any significant measures limiting abortion, which is a pretty pro-choice stance. They would likely outlaw third-trimester since most people are against that, at the least, so it would be more pro-life than the current stance.
Greyparrot
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@bmdrocks21
You won't get a 2/3 consensus to draw the line at when a fetus gets rights. But you WOULD get a 2/3 consensus for a constitutional amendment prohibiting statewide bans on abortions.
Greyparrot
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@bmdrocks21
Roe v. Wade says that there can't be any significant measures limiting abortion, which is a pretty pro-choice stance. They would likely outlaw third-trimester since most people are against that, at the least, so it would be more pro-life than the current stance.

Yah that clause in Roe V Wade allows legal 3rd-trimester abortions, which 2/3 people most certainly don't support.
bmdrocks21
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@Greyparrot
You won't get a 2/3 consensus to draw the line at when a fetus gets rights. But you WOULD get a 2/3 consensus for a constitutional amendment prohibiting statewide bans on abortions.

That's fair. So Alabama would just make it a one-day thing instead of a ban? Just the "morning after" pill is allowed?

I could see that amendment getting enough support.
bmdrocks21
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@Greyparrot
I'm really confused about why people are freaking out about a Roe v. Wade overturning then. I still think they believe that would outlaw abortion.
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@bmdrocks21
2/3 of all abortions would end if it was required to show the mother an ultrasound of the fetus.

Basic biology response.
HistoryBuff
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@Greyparrot
2/3 of all abortions would end if it was required to show the mother an ultrasound of the fetus.

Basic biology response.
So your answer is that you want to take away their rights and try to emotionally manipulate them into doing what you want. That is really shitty. 
Greyparrot
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@HistoryBuff
Why not? Left uses emotion all the time. Kids in cages lul.
ethang5
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I understand a person wanting women to have the freedom to choose an abortion, what I don't get are the people who seem to think abortion is the moral option.

They immediately start pushing abortion the moment a pregnant woman walks in. From how they talk, you can tell all they're interested in is abortion. They prefer abortion to birth.

Its like a death cult.
bmdrocks21
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@Greyparrot
Why not? Left uses emotion all the time. Kids in cages lul.

That's not funny, bro! That was basically the Holocaust!

Haha

bmdrocks21
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@HistoryBuff
So you don't think it is manipulation to call a fetus a "clump of cells" but simply showing them what it looks like is manipulation?
DynamicSquid
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@RationalMadman
@ILikePie5
@Snoopy
@Christen
@Gatorade
Gatorade

YES! Yang2020 is the way to go!

Christen

Do you support it?

RationalMadman

Warrens okay I guess...

Snoopy

Bernie is actually pretty cool, however if it only wasn't for his health conditions, then I think he might have a stronger chance.

Also, Klobuchar and Gabbard!? No way! I still can't wrap my head around the fact that they are still in the race! Well, Gabbard didn't make it to the December debate, so that's good, however, how is Klobuchar still on?

ILikePie, Franklin

Guys, don't do drugs, ther're bad for you.

Seriously though, I don't think Trump will actually win in 2020. We have a strong list of presidential Democrats now, and they might be taking over the senate in 2020. Also with the impeachment inquires, things don't look good for Trump...
Greyparrot
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@DynamicSquid

Seriously though, I don't think Trump will actually win in 2020. We have a strong list of presidential Democrats now, and they might be taking over the senate in 2020. Also with the impeachment inquires, things don't look good for Trump...

DynamicSquid
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@Greyparrot
Wait wut? That can't be right...
Greyparrot
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@DynamicSquid
Lol, Trump celebrated his impeachment with a pep rally in a packed arena.
dustryder
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@bmdrocks21
I haven't heard people describing fetuses as a clump of cells. I mean it wouldn't be wrong, in the sense that every living organism is a clump of cells anyway. But it would be very misleading.

It's an accurate and pertinent way of describing the early stages of pregnancy such as the zygote however

WaterPhoenix
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@Greyparrot
lol, that's amazing. Trump better win the election though.
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@WaterPhoenix
It's so hilarious, like the Dems forgot to inform Trump that impeachment is supposed to be bad.
bmdrocks21
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@dustryder
It's an accurate and pertinent way of describing the early stages of pregnancy such as the zygote however
As you said, everything is a 'clump of cells'. That is kind of how it has to be framed to justify it, though. You have to negate the significance and saying that you are discarding 'tissue' or a 'clump of cells' doesn't sound very bad. Greyparrot mentioned ultrasounds, but those really wouldn't pick anything up at the zygote stage. People aren't aware of the pregnancy at that point, as well, so this would refer to two months in and after (not 100% sure on that timing, just estimating for now).

You could have had a different experience, being from New Zealand and all, but people do call it a clump of cells and don't really give them information about the fetus before they make the decision. They don't say 'hey, this is viable and we could try giving birth instead' or anything of the sort. Abortion shouldn't be a decision that you sugar-coat or misinform people about, which is what often happens.

We don't have to get into the abortion argument. It is clear that neither of us will likely change our position on the matter, but what is your opinion about providing an ultrasound before an abortion?
dustryder
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@bmdrocks21
I think manipulating someone in an effort to prevent what should be freely their right is wrong.