Never Argue with Religious People

Author: Paul

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@Paul
Okay, your grammar was off in your opening statement. In any case, have you heard of a Miamondiean Jew? They are very rationale in outlook and don't rely on... what you'd call "magic."
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@Paul
No magic needed when one understands how creation is put together. "Religious" people is quite a wide range of people, it doesn't really address anything. That term could refer to the most dumb person or the smartest person, then when "religious" people start to make sense their propositions  are labeled all kinds of things lol, like "God of the Gaps" and "making things up" or "trying to suit an agenda".....blah blah blah where does it end?

I can explain how creation is put together very simply from the Godhead down, it does not require any magic and it does not require any gap arguments. If God fills any gaps it's not because of any personal agenda rather it fills the gaps because it's a true proposition. Yal need to make up your minds. 
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@EtrnlVw
God requires magic. That's the widest gap in the hypothesis.

As I always state, all hypotheses start at 1 and ignore 0. 

So explain 0 to God and I will start to take you seriously.
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@Tradesecret
What do you mean by that? My motive is and has been clear as a blue sky from day one. I question what the the believers believe in and expect them to be able to answer without relying on supernatural explanations.
I expect you have probably answered this elsewhere, but if someone believes in a divine being who intervenes divinely into the world, why should they answer without relying on supernatural explanations? 

Define  "divine". My understanding is that divine means god or god - like. 

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@Paul
You should never argue with religious people because they have magic on their side. When you have magic on your side literally anything you can think of is possible. So, never argue with religious people, unless of course you find it amusing.

How would you describe magic?

When remote tribes (as the saying goes) first saw a white man flick a bick lighter, they considered it magic.

Would you consider the act of creating a universe magic? Or, would it depend on the method (e.g., ex nihilo representing magic)?

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@TheDredPriateRoberts
"that is the best argument for creation I have heard yet."
I agree depending on the intelligent design argument. My favorite is that everything is an infinite consciousness. That is pretty loaded though, and it would also imply no creation per se. It's as if what is going on in your mind is reality. Is that creation? Or is it just what is? 
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@zedvictor4
God requires magic. That's the widest gap in the hypothesis.
No not at all, thanks for the assertion. God requires a process of creating not magic.
As I always state, all hypotheses start at 1 and ignore 0.
I don't ignore anything, thanks yet again for the assertion.
So explain 0 to God and I will start to take you seriously.
You want to take me seriously? or do I want to take YOU seriously? I think it would be fair if we found a common ground that we could elaborate on.
Awareness (consciousness) is what has always existed, it doesn't require any form or matter....in other words there is nowhere something exists where there is not awareness. This awareness exists first, this is what we categorize as God (intelligence)…. the Creator, it's the very process of creation and the manipulation of energy that we know explains why things exist the way they do, the way energy produces what we see currently.

"0" to God is awareness, consciousness, it is the very nature of God. That is the first reality, everything else comes after that. 
It's consciousness=energy=creation. 
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@Stephen
Define  "divine". My understanding is that divine means god or god - like
That definition works for me. At least in the short term. 

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@Outplayz
it really is mind blowing, I hope we learn the answers, I want to know everything :)
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@TheDredPriateRoberts
I think our discoveries will be more on the lines of making ourselves infinite or trying to... i don't think we'll ever figure out the source of it all, especially if that source has infinite knowledge or time on us... who knows. Interesting seeing it unfold indeed.   
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@EtrnlVw
Yep. But your still starting at 1.

Awareness requires 1. So the hypothesis hasn't yet got of the ground.

Explain 0 to 1.

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@Paul
When you have magic on your side literally anything you can think of is possible.
Thanks for telling me conceding God existing is a death sentence if you want an argument. 

Stephen
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@Tradesecret
Define  "divine". My understanding is that divine means god or god - like
That definition works for me. At least in the short term. 


OK back toy our original question:

why should they answer without relying on supernatural explanations? 

because it has to be proven that the god or god-like being has supernatural powers, it has to be established where these powers come from or if indeed "supernatural powers " were simply misunderstood happenings with reasonable scientific explanations or enigmatic metaphors.

 Example: Jesus raised the dead? No he didn't raise the literal dead. Those outside of his circle were called the dead, when they had been through the initiation ceremony of being raised to another level of initiation and entered into his circle they became the living. As both those two enigmatic verses of " come let us go and die with him" John 11:16  and "let the dead bury the dead"   Matthew 8:22 .  If these two enigmatic verses are to be taken literally then they make absolutely no sense whatsoever.
Why would these disciples want to literally "die". And how can "the dead bury the dead" literally?. 
Paul
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@EtrnlVw
No magic needed? Okay then, explain to us the physics of your god.
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@Stephen
OK back toy our original question:

why should they answer without relying on supernatural explanations? 

because it has to be proven that the god or god-like being has supernatural powers, it has to be established where these powers come from or if indeed "supernatural powers " were simply misunderstood happenings with reasonable scientific explanations or enigmatic metaphors.
Example: Jesus raised the dead? No he didn't raise the literal dead. Those outside of his circle were called the dead, when they had been through the initiation ceremony of being raised to another level of initiation and entered into his circle they became the living. As both those two enigmatic verses of " come let us go and die with him" John 11:16  and "let the dead bury the dead"   Matthew 8:22 .  If these two enigmatic verses are to be taken literally then they make absolutely no sense whatsoever.
Why would these disciples want to llterally die". And how can "the dead bury the dead" literally?. 
Thanks for your explanation.  I think what you are saying is not that you don't want people to rely upon supernatural explanations but rather you want to talk about what phenomena exists in any set of circumstances that firstly demonstrate "in your mind" supernatural powers, and secondly, whether they are genuine powers, which cannot be explained either scientifically, nor metaphorically. Correct me if I have misunderstood you. 






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@Stephen
@Tradesecret


.
Stephen,

YOUR BIBLICALLY IGNORANT QUOTE: " Example: Jesus raised the dead? No he didn't raise the literal dead."

As shown ad infinitum, you are as biblically ignorant as TRADESECRET, where you are still grasping for straws in trying to disprove Jesus' higher powers. The scriptures that you and TRADESECRET try and rewrite as minions of Satan, state with specificity Jesus did RAISE THE DEAD as our serial killer Jewish Yahweh God incarnate!

"Soon afterward he went to a town called Nain, and his disciples and a great crowd went with him.  As he drew near to the gate of the town, behold, a man who had died was being carried out, the only son of his mother, and she was a widow, and a considerable crowd from the town was with her. And when the Lord saw her, he had compassion on her and said to her, “Do not weep.” Then he came up and touched the bier, and the bearers stood still. And he said, “Young man, I say to you, arise.”  And the dead man sat up and began to speak, and Jesus gave him to his mother.  Fear seized them all, and they glorified God, saying, “A great prophet has arisen among us!” and “God has visited his people!” And this report about him spread through the whole of Judea and all the surrounding country." (Luke 7: 11-17)

Stephen, a word of caution, don't let TRADESECRETS ungodly ignorance of the scriptures rub off upon you, where as shown, you have enough embarrassment as it is within this forum relative to Christianity. You can thank me later for this enlightenment.


.

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@Paul
No magic needed? Okay then, explain to us the physics of your god.

If you're talking about the very nature of God there isn't much physics involved in it's origin, the Creator is pure awareness, there is no matter or material that produces that first Reality. Conscious awareness doesn't need form or matter to be conscious or aware, this isn't magic it's just the nature of awareness. There is nowhere something exists where there is not awareness, pure consciousness is the first foundation beyond everything that exists, and everything that exists comes out from that first Reality including energy. Pure awareness is cyclical or eternal, it has no beginning or end, no starting point or ending point, it's a static fixed Reality. It's the beginning and passing of matter and form that have a birth and a death but awareness exists within and outside of that simultaneously much like the nature of electricity and energy, they exist within form and independent of form. 

If you're talking about creation from the Godhead down it's basically consciousness=energy=creation. While awareness needs nothing to produce it or sustain it conscious activity does produce energy, and like both energy and consciousness they are not created or destroyed, actually they co-exist and are eternal. Energy exists because first an omnipresent conscious reality exists, it is this nature of energy that the Creator uses/manipulates to begin the processes of creating.....big bang, stars, planets, galaxies, solar systems to the establishment of environments for life forms to begin to evolve...ect ect….and you have what we see currently in this particular solar system of ours and much more beyond.

This is why it's important to pay attention to how energy operates in creation, it's a huge clue to why and how creation and Theism are possible. Energy acts as intelligence or produces intelligence because intelligence is first involved in that process. When energy was isolated and condensed to produce a Big bang it enabled the Creator even more medium to create with! but the conscious reality of God starts with energy...and then the physics, chemistry and biology behind all of our worlds.

Castin
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@SkepticalOne
You should never argue with religious people because they have magic on their side. When you have magic on your side literally anything you can think of is possible.

This is too general to be accurate. Religion alone doesn't keep people from being reasonable or from being reasoned with. If it did, then no one would ever de-convert. Some believers can be extremely dogmatic and may distrust anyone who believes differently. Reasoning with these folks may be a lost cause. However, this is a subset of believers much like anti-theists are a subset of atheists. Let's not pigeonhole believers based on the most extreme examples of theism.

In short, don't push away reasonable people by being unreasonable towards them. 
For some reason this post doesn't seem to have gotten the attention it deserved. I guess you'll have to settle for the applause of an audience of one (moi). *clapping*
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@janesix
At least you guys are revealing your true motives
Youch. I hope this wasn't directed at all atheists. 😟

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@EtrnlVw

Gobbledygook!
janesix
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@Castin
I know there are atheists here who aren't here to mock
Paul
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@EtrnlVw
If you're talking about the very nature of God there isn't much physics involved in it's origin, the Creator is pure awareness, there is no matter or material that produces that first Reality. Conscious awareness doesn't need form or matter to be conscious or aware, this isn't magic it's just the nature of awareness. There is nowhere something exists where there is not awareness, pure consciousness is the first foundation beyond everything that exists, and everything that exists comes out from that first Reality including energy. Pure awareness is cyclical or eternal, it has no beginning or end, no starting point or ending point, it's a static fixed Reality. It's the beginning and passing of matter and form that have a birth and a death but awareness exists within and outside of that simultaneously much like the nature of electricity and energy, they exist within form and independent of form. 

If you're talking about creation from the Godhead down it's basically consciousness=energy=creation. While awareness needs nothing to produce it or sustain it conscious activity does produce energy, and like both energy and consciousness they are not created or destroyed, actually they co-exist and are eternal. Energy exists because first an omnipresent conscious reality exists, it is this nature of energy that the Creator uses/manipulates to begin the processes of creating.....big bang, stars, planets, galaxies, solar systems to the establishment of environments for life forms to begin to evolve...ect ect….and you have what we see currently in this particular solar system of ours and much more beyond.

This is why it's important to pay attention to how energy operates in creation, it's a huge clue to why and how creation and Theism are possible. Energy acts as intelligence or produces intelligence because intelligence is first involved in that process. When energy was isolated and condensed to produce a Big bang it enabled the Creator even more medium to create with! but the conscious reality of God starts with energy...and then the physics, chemistry and biology behind all of our worlds.
It wasn’t a serous question, you didn’t have to wright all that. God has no physics.

Castin
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@janesix
I know there are atheists here who aren't here to mock
👍

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@Paul
We Orthodox certainly do not believe that anything you can think of is possible. We would very easily identify that as delusion. 

It is better to debate to better understand another than to argue in order to make it appear that you are right or that someone else is wrong. If you can not explain to someone what they believe to the satisfaction of the one who believes, you are demonstrating that what a person really believes in a debate is not important, that what is important is simply the appearances of righteousness.



TheRealNihilist
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@janesix
Do you think I mock? 
janesix
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@TheRealNihilist
I'm not sure 

I haven't had much interaction with you

88 days later

Alec
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I flip flop on religion a lot.
ethang5
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@Alec
You flip flop from what to what?
disgusted
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@ethang5
From lies to absurd contradictions like you do.