The Bible is Alternate Facts

Author: Harikrish

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@Mopac

The goal of Orthodox Christianity is theosis, which is how we understand salvation. That is, we become partakers of the divine nature and in cooperating and abiding with the divine uncreated energy of God that fills all things, we are united to divinity. This is complete after our time in this world. In this world we become co-workers with God as living icons of The Truth. Our God is The Truth. That being the case, a big part of our discipline has to do with freeing ourselves of prelest, or delusion. We recognize that the pure in heart see God, and so our discipline involves the cleansing of the nous of the influences and passions that lead us into delusion or obscure the Image of God in us.


I am sure you can at least see here that we do have some in common. There is also much that is different.

Reincarnation simply does not fit into our eschatology, as there is no need for multiple lives. Everything is revealed as it is in eternity, and the very same light of Truth that is paradise to those who abided in The Truth is the fiery torment that afflicts those who have lived a life in defiance of The Truth.

We would also say that the idea that one can save themselves is prelest, because we understand that The Truth is what saves and liberates, not our own will. We see ourselves as having a personal relationship with The Truth, and so we say that The Truth is what cleanses us, not our own efforts. That said, we still play a part in this through what we call synergy. That is, cooperation with this divine energy. All Orthodox Christians are called to be ascetics.


Though there are 30,000+ nominally Christian denominations, the oldest creeds of the church state a belief in "One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church". That very Church is around today in the form of The Orthodox Catholic Church. What I am really saying here is that of these 30,000+ nominally Christian churches, there is only one Church that can legitimately be called Christian and Orthodox, and this is something that is easily confirmed in studying the history of the church.
The fact that we have 30,000 denominations of Christian is proof the early Orthodox Church was found wanting and left behind. Christianity had to evolve because the Old Testament teachings did not work for the Jews. Even Jesus who followed judaism was crucified. So the closer you are to the source like Orthodoxy the less relevant you are to modern Christianity.

Paul said to the faithful the promise was not kept. The believers  are still in their graves waiting to be resurrected. Hindus dont have that problem. Reincarnation gets them back on their feet and working on their next life cycle. Some like Buddha even break through in their first attempt. No such hope for Christians. Their resurrection is dependent on Jesus returning. From dust to dust was the original Christian curse, remember?
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@Harikrish
I'm afraid your opinion comes from your inadequate education concerning our faith. 


You are also going back to polemics.


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@Mopac
I'm afraid your opinion comes from your inadequate education concerning our faith.


You are also going back to polemics.

I am a biblical scholar. You cannot even name a single modern biblical scholar you have read.

You were asked if you accept sctiptures that declared Jesus was a demon possessed madman. You got stumped by scriptures!!

Mark 3:21 When His family heard about this, they went out to take custody of Him, saying, "He is out of His mind." 


John 10:20 Many of them said, "He is demon-possessed and insane. Why would you listen to Him?" 



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@Harikrish
Yes, and everyone with an iphone is a photographer.
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@Mopac
Yes, and everyone with an iphone is a photographer.
Is that the Orthodox understanding?
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@Harikrish
No, I am mocking you for expecting.me to believe your self declarations in the face.of overwhelming evidence to the contrary. 

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@Mopac
No, I am mocking you for expecting me to believe your self declaration in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

What is so controversial about sctiptures that describe Jesus in unflattering terms. Jesus was critical of the religious leaders too.


Do you accept Jesus was a madman and demon possessed? I even provided the supporting scriptures.


Mark 3:21 When His family heard about this, they went out to take custody of Him, saying, "He is out of His mind."



John 10:20 Many of them said, "He is demon-possessed and insane. Why would you listen to Him?"

Harikrish biblical scholar and spiritual leader


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@Harikrish
You don't even believe your arguments. You know they are dishonest. You do realize that the gospels were written by the church right? It doesn't even make sense that they would mean what you are trying to pull from them.


I believe you are the one presenting alternate falsehoods as fact.
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@Mopac
I believe you are the one presenting alternate falsehoods as fact.
If you say the Gospels  were written by the church, then the church wants you to believe Jesus was a demon possessed madman.



So you accept Jesus was a madman and demon possessed? I even provided the supporting scriptures.


Mark 3:21 When His family heard about this, they went out to take custody of Him, saying, "He is out of His mind."



John 10:20 Many of them said, "He is demon-possessed and insane. Why would you listen to Him?"

Harikrish biblical scholar and spiritual leader


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@Harikrish
Come on, even you are not so base as to be unaware that you are peddling nonsense. We of course do not believe that Jesus Christ was demon possessed.
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@Mopac
Come  on, even you are not do base as to be unaware that you are peddling nonsense. We of course do not believe that Jesus Christ was demon possessed.

You are 2000 years removed from the Jesus that the Bible speaks about. The Gospel are eyewitness accounts by those who were there and followed every word and deed of Jesus.

What I quoted from scriptures don't need any interpretation or special gifts from the holy spirt to understand.

It simply says those who knew and lived during Jesus's time including his family declared jesus was a demon possessed madman.

Mark 3:21 When His family heard about this, they went out to take custody of Him, saying, "He is out of His mind."


John 10:20 Many of them said, "He is demon-possessed and insane. Why would you listen to Him?"

It was confirmed on the cross jesus was indeed mad to blame God for  his failures.

Matthew 27:46 About the ninth hour, Jesus cried out in a loud voice, "Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?" which means, "My God, My God, why have you forsaken Me?"

What is further proof of insanity is Christians believe this illegitimate jewish bastard demon possessed madman died for their sins 2000 years ago.

Hitler put this belief to the test by exterminating 6 million Jews. He never found a single claim of redemption or resurrection among the Gentile Christians. who believe only dead Jews can forgive sins as taught be Jesus.

So Jesus was not  only a lunatic, he was a liar too.


Jesus was incoherent and spoke in parables which the disciples did not understand. That caused confusion. But what was said about Jesus was direct and simple. He was a demon possessed madman.

Harikrish biblical scholar and spiritual leader.

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@Harikrish
Nonsense

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@Mopac
Nonsense
How did the Orthodox church missed scriptures that declared Jesus was a demon possessed madman?


You are 2000 years removed from the Jesus that the Bible speaks about. The Gospel are eyewitness accounts by those who were there and followed every word and deed of Jesus.

What I quoted from scriptures don't need any interpretation or special gifts from the holy spirt to understand.

It simply says those who knew and lived during Jesus's time including his family declared jesus was a demon possessed madman.

Mark 3:21 When His family heard about this, they went out to take custody of Him, saying, "He is out of His mind."


John 10:20 Many of them said, "He is demon-possessed and insane. Why would you listen to Him?"

It was confirmed on the cross jesus was indeed mad to blame God for  his failures.

Matthew 27:46 About the ninth hour, Jesus cried out in a loud voice, "Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?" which means, "My God, My God, why have you forsaken Me?"

What is further proof of insanity is Christians believe this illegitimate jewish bastard demon possessed madman died for their sins 2000 years ago.

Hitler put this belief to the test by exterminating 6 million Jews. He never found a single claim of redemption or resurrection among the Gentile Christians. who believe only dead Jews can forgive sins as taught be Jesus.

So Jesus was not  only a lunatic, he was a liar too.


Jesus was incoherent and spoke in parables which the disciples did not understand. That caused confusion. But what was said about Jesus was direct and simple. He was a demon possessed madman.

Harikrish biblical scholar and spiritual leader.


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@Harikrish
Anyone who cares to look into any of your claims, even with. the most minimal of efforts can confirm that they are based on perverse reasonings and removing scripture from context.
It is certainly not that The Church missed anything.


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@Mopac
Anyone who cares to look into any of your claims, even with. the most minimal of efforts can confirm that they are based on perverse reasonings and removing scripture from context.
It is certainly not that The Church missed anything.

What context was removed from a direct declaration by his family and those who heard Jesus declare Jesus was a demon possed madman?

We know he was rejected by the Jews the very people Jesus claimed God sent him to save.

Matthew 15:24 He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."

Jesus  blamed God for failing in his mission.

Matthew 27:46 About the ninth hour, Jesus cried out in a loud voice, "Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?" which means, "My God, My God, why have you forsaken Me?"


What I quoted from scriptures don't need any interpretation or special gifts from the holy spirt to understand.

It simply says those who knew and lived during Jesus's time including his family declared jesus was a demon possessed madman.

Mark 3:21 When His family heard about this, they went out to take custody of Him, saying, "He is out of His mind."


John 10:20 Many of them said, "He is demon-possessed and insane. Why would you listen to Him?"

It was confirmed on the cross jesus was indeed mad to blame God for  his failures.

Matthew 27:46 About the ninth hour, Jesus cried out in a loud voice, "Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?" which means, "My God, My God, why have you forsaken Me?"

What is further proof of insanity is Christians believe this illegitimate jewish bastard demon possessed madman died for their sins 2000 years ago.

Hitler put this belief to the test by exterminating 6 million Jews. He never found a single claim of redemption or resurrection among the Gentile Christians. who believe only dead Jews can forgive sins as taught be Jesus.

So Jesus was not  only a lunatic, he was a liar too.


Jesus was incoherent and spoke in parables which the disciples did not understand. That caused confusion. But what was said about Jesus was direct and simple. He was a demon possessed madman.

Harikrish biblical scholar and spiritual leader.


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@Harikrish
Well, for starters Mark 3:21...

The text in Greek does not actually say what your translation says.

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@Mopac
Well for starters Mark 3:21...
The text in Greek does not actually say what your translation says.

So what does the NRSV bible used by the Orthodox Church say?

Mark 3:21 New Revised Standard Version (NRSV)

21 When his family heard it, they went out to restrain him, for people were saying, “He has gone out of his mind.”

New Revised Standard Version Bible, copyright © 1989 the Division of Christian Education of the National Council of the Churches of Christ in the United States of America. Used by permission. All rights reserved.

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@Harikrish

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@Harikrish
Also, we use the septuigant for the Old Testament primarily,  not the msdoretic text which the NRSV is translated from.

Also, their source texts are from Nestle-Aland, which are post textual criticism texts that do not really match our transcripts.


So no, your claim that this is our bible is false.


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@Mopac

Also, we use the septuigant for the Old Testament primarily,  not the msdoretic text which the NRSV is translated from.

Also, their source texts are from Nestle-Aland, which are post textual criticism texts that do not really match our transcripts.


So no, your claim that this is our bible is false.
The OCA site translates Mark 3:21


Home / The Orthodox Faith / Scripture Readings /

Search by chapter/verse

Mark 3:21
21 But when His own people heard about this, they went out to lay hold of Him, for they said, “He is out of His mind.”

So the OCA site says Jesus was out of his mind I.e a madman.

Home / The Orthodox Faith / Scripture Readings /

Search by chapter/verse

John 10:20
20 And many of them said, “He has a demon and is mad. Why do you listen to Him?”


The objections raised by bishop Dimitri does not include Mark 3:21. See below.

(Genesis I: 1-2) In the beginning when God created the heavens and the earth, the earth was a formless void and darkness covered the face of the deep, while a wind from God swept over the face of the waters.
(Psalm I) Happy are those who do not follow the advice of the wicked.

(Psalm XXII:16) My hands and feet have shriveled.

(Psalm LI:5) Indeed I was born guilty, a sinner when my mother conceived me.

(Romans V:12) Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death came through sin, and so death spread to all because all have sinned.

(John I:3-4) All things came into being through him, and without him not one thing came into being. What has come into being in him was life, and the life was the light of all people.

(I Timothy II:5-6) For there is one God; there is also one mediator between God and humankind, Christ Jesus, himself human, who gave himself a ransom for all-- this was attested at the right time.

(I Timothy III: 1-2) The saying is sure: whoever aspires to the office of bishop desires a noble task. Now a bishop must be above reproach, married only once, temperate, sensible, respectable, hospitable, an apt teacher.@

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@Harikrish
You are not going to get around the.fact that the Greek simply does not say this.

Nowhere in this passage does it say anything about Jesus' family or Jesus beimg "out of his mind"





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@Vader
Would you do me a favor and translate what this says into English as independent confirmation?



καὶ ἀκούσαντες οἱ παρ’ αὐτοῦ ἐξῆλθον κρατῆσαι αὐτόν· ἔλεγον γὰρ ὅτι ἐξέστη.
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@Mopac
You are not going to get around the fact that the Greek simply does not say this.
Nowhere in this passage does it say anything about Jesus' family or Jesus being "out of his mind".


The OCA site translates Mark 3:21


Home / The Orthodox Faith / Scripture Readings /

Search by chapter/verse

Mark 3:21
21 But when His own people heard about this, they went out to lay hold of Him, for they said, “He is out of His mind.”

So the OCA site says Jesus was out of his mind I.e a madman.

Home / The Orthodox Faith / Scripture Readings /

Search by chapter/verse

John 10:20
20 And many of them said, “He has a demon and is mad. Why do you listen to Him?”


The objections raised by bishop Dimitri does not include Mark 3:21. See below.

(Genesis I: 1-2) In the beginning when God created the heavens and the earth, the earth was a formless void and darkness covered the face of the deep, while a wind from God swept over the face of the waters.
(Psalm I) Happy are those who do not follow the advice of the wicked.

(Psalm XXII:16) My hands and feet have shriveled.

(Psalm LI:5) Indeed I was born guilty, a sinner when my mother conceived me.

(Romans V:12) Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death came through sin, and so death spread to all because all have sinned.

(John I:3-4) All things came into being through him, and without him not one thing came into being. What has come into being in him was life, and the life was the light of all people.

(I Timothy II:5-6) For there is one God; there is also one mediator between God and humankind, Christ Jesus, himself human, who gave himself a ransom for all-- this was attested at the right time.

(I Timothy III: 1-2) The saying is sure: whoever aspires to the office of bishop desires a noble task. Now a bishop must be above reproach, married only once, temperate, sensible, respectable, hospitable, an apt teacher.@


I have given you you two verses taken from the OCA site with links.which say Jesus was demon possessed and mad.

That Jesus  was crucified should be proof enough he was a blasphemous liar and a lunatic.


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@Harikrish
You can repeat yourself all you want, you have a non argument. Your polemic  is easily  some of the flimsiest I have ever seen. I have seen 12 year old athesists make nore intelligent arguments than you.

So perhaps you'd be better off talking about subjects that you can more convincingly bullshit that you are an expert on.

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@Mopac
You can repeat yourself all you want, you have  a non argument. Your polemic is easily some of the flimsiest I have ever seen.I have seen 12 years old atheists make more intelligent arguments than you.   
You only experience has been with 12 year old atheists. You have never faced a biblical scholar like Harikrish before.

So perhaps you'd be better off talking about subjects that you can more convincingly bullshit that you are an expert on.

The OCA site translates Mark 3:21


Home / The Orthodox Faith / Scripture Readings /

Search by chapter/verse

Mark 3:21
21 But when His own people heard about this, they went out to lay hold of Him, for they said, “He is out of His mind.”

So the OCA site says Jesus was out of his mind I.e a madman.

Home / The Orthodox Faith / Scripture Readings /

Search by chapter/verse

John 10:20
20 And many of them said, “He has a demon and is mad. Why do you listen to Him?”


The objections raised by bishop Dimitri does not include Mark 3:21. See below.

(Genesis I: 1-2) In the beginning when God created the heavens and the earth, the earth was a formless void and darkness covered the face of the deep, while a wind from God swept over the face of the waters.
(Psalm I) Happy are those who do not follow the advice of the wicked.

(Psalm XXII:16) My hands and feet have shriveled.

(Psalm LI:5) Indeed I was born guilty, a sinner when my mother conceived me.

(Romans V:12) Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death came through sin, and so death spread to all because all have sinned.

(John I:3-4) All things came into being through him, and without him not one thing came into being. What has come into being in him was life, and the life was the light of all people.

(I Timothy II:5-6) For there is one God; there is also one mediator between God and humankind, Christ Jesus, himself human, who gave himself a ransom for all-- this was attested at the right time.

(I Timothy III: 1-2) The saying is sure: whoever aspires to the office of bishop desires a noble task. Now a bishop must be above reproach, married only once, temperate, sensible, respectable, hospitable, an apt teacher.@


I have given you you two verses taken from the OCA site with links.which say Jesus was demon possessed and mad.

That Jesus  was crucified should be proof enough he was a blasphemous liar and a lunatic.

The bible tells us Jesus was crucified and not sacrificed.
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@Harikrish
There has not been made a proper translation into English by the Orthodox Church. In fact, Orthodoxy is not very big in English speaking countries. Most of the translation work is being done by protestants and such.


When his own people is definitely a better translation than his friends or family. Though, you could probably argue that everyone in town was family, the words that get translated very inconsistently in English when it comes to this passage do not necessarily even imply a intimate relation. 

Then hearing about this multitude being there, the people nearby, which is what the words literally mean, does not necessarily  mean closeness in the sense of family or friends, but in the spatial sense. The people who were around. There is a multitude, you know.

Mark was not really the most eloquent writer in Greek which has sometimes made him tricky to translate or interpret. The other gospels account a similar if not identical situation... The word that gets translated into "he is out of his mind" in your translations is literally one word. That word when used in every other instance of Mark very consistently gets translated as "amazed" and such. That word has been made bold in these parallels...

I am using The King James version as it is not under copywrite in The United States, and it is adequate to make point..

If we look at parallel in Matthew....

"Then was brought unto him one possessed with a devil, blind, and dumb: and he healed him, insomuch that the blind and dumb both spake and saw.
And all the people were amazed, and said, Is not this the son of David?

But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils."

If we look at parallel in Luke....

"And he was casting out a devil, and it was dumb. And it came to pass, when the devil was gone out, the dumb spake; and the people wondered.
But some of them said, He casteth out devils through Beelzebub the chief of the devils."

If we look back at our passage in question in Mark....


"And the multitude cometh together again, so that they could not so much as eat bread.
And when his friends heard of it, they went out to lay hold on him: for they said, He is beside himself.
And the scribes which came down from Jerusalem said, He hath Beelzebub, and by the prince of the devils casteth he out devils."



You will notice that in the translation of this word, "he" is added into the word. What it is really saying is not that Jesus is out of his mind or beside himself as the KJ puts it, but that the crowd was amazed, stupefied, astonished, and generally out of order.



The interpretation that you see in the bibles today likely originates in Jerome, an ancient scholar who translated the scriptures from Greek into Latin. You do not find this confusion present in the church that to this day is the state church of Greece. The Latin speaking west also got confused into thinking that everyone inherited the guilt of Adam's transgression in the garden because of the influence of these translations on the Latin church. Perhaps these were the seeds that lead to the eventual breaking away of the Bishop of Rome from the other Patriarchs of the church.


All transllations are interpretations. That is why it is the wise thing to accept the authority of the church when it comes to knowing and walking the faith. 










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@Mopac
All translations are interpretations. That us why it is the wise thing to accept the authority of the church when it comes to knowing and walking the faith.
This is what Jesus said about church authorities (religious leaders of his time) You are doing the opposite of what Jesus taught.


Luke 11:46 “Yes,” said Jesus, “what sorrow also awaits you experts in religious law! For you crush people with unbearable religious demands, and you never lift a finger to ease the burden. 47 What sorrow awaits you! For you build monuments for the prophets your own ancestors killed long ago. 48 But in fact, you stand as witnesses who agree with what your ancestors did. They killed the prophets, and you join in their crime by building the monuments! 49 This is what God in his wisdom said about you:[c] ‘I will send prophets and apostles to them, but they will kill some and persecute the others.’



The OCA site translates Mark 3:21


Home / The Orthodox Faith / Scripture Readings /

Search by chapter/verse

Mark 3:21
21 But when His own people heard about this, they went out to lay hold of Him, for they said, “He is out of His mind.”

So the OCA site says Jesus was out of his mind I.e a madman.

Home / The Orthodox Faith / Scripture Readings /

Search by chapter/verse

John 10:20
20 And many of them said, “He has a demon and is mad. Why do you listen to Him?”


The objections raised by bishop Dimitri does not include Mark 3:21. See below.

(Genesis I: 1-2) In the beginning when God created the heavens and the earth, the earth was a formless void and darkness covered the face of the deep, while a wind from God swept over the face of the waters.
(Psalm I) Happy are those who do not follow the advice of the wicked.

(Psalm XXII:16) My hands and feet have shriveled.

(Psalm LI:5) Indeed I was born guilty, a sinner when my mother conceived me.

(Romans V:12) Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death came through sin, and so death spread to all because all have sinned.

(John I:3-4) All things came into being through him, and without him not one thing came into being. What has come into being in him was life, and the life was the light of all people.

(I Timothy II:5-6) For there is one God; there is also one mediator between God and humankind, Christ Jesus, himself human, who gave himself a ransom for all-- this was attested at the right time.

(I Timothy III: 1-2) The saying is sure: whoever aspires to the office of bishop desires a noble task. Now a bishop must be above reproach, married only once, temperate, sensible, respectable, hospitable, an apt teacher.@


I have given you you two verses taken from the OCA site with links.which say Jesus was demon possessed and mad.

That Jesus  was crucified should be proof enough he was a blasphemous liar and a lunatic.

The bible tells us Jesus was crucified and not sacrificed.






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Mopac
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@Harikrish
It is wrong to take Bishop Dimitri's list of examples as exhaustive.


It is also wrong of you to interpret Jesus' words in such a manner as to undermine The Apostolic Church. You yourself admit that you believe Jesus was a madman. You do not believe Jesus Christ, let alone the very church of His apostles. 






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Harikrish
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@Mopac
It is wrong to take Bishop Dimitri's list of examples as exhaustive.


It is also wrong of you to interpret Jesus' words in such a manner as to undermine The Apostolic Church. You yourself admit that you believe Jesus was a madman. You do not believe Jesus Christ, let alone the very church of His apostles.



You referenced his life's work. Why did you use a source if you thought it was incomplete.

OCA site translates Mark 3:21


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Mark 3:21
21 But when His own people heard about this, they went out to lay hold of Him, for they said, “He is out of His mind.”

So the OCA site says Jesus was out of his mind I.e a madman.

Home / The Orthodox Faith / Scripture Readings /

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John 10:20
20 And many of them said, “He has a demon and is mad. Why do you listen to Him?”


The objections raised by bishop Dimitri does not include Mark 3:21. See below.

(Genesis I: 1-2) In the beginning when God created the heavens and the earth, the earth was a formless void and darkness covered the face of the deep, while a wind from God swept over the face of the waters.
(Psalm I) Happy are those who do not follow the advice of the wicked.

(Psalm XXII:16) My hands and feet have shriveled.

(Psalm LI:5) Indeed I was born guilty, a sinner when my mother conceived me.

(Romans V:12) Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death came through sin, and so death spread to all because all have sinned.

(John I:3-4) All things came into being through him, and without him not one thing came into being. What has come into being in him was life, and the life was the light of all people.

(I Timothy II:5-6) For there is one God; there is also one mediator between God and humankind, Christ Jesus, himself human, who gave himself a ransom for all-- this was attested at the right time.

(I Timothy III: 1-2) The saying is sure: whoever aspires to the office of bishop desires a noble task. Now a bishop must be above reproach, married only once, temperate, sensible, respectable, hospitable, an apt teacher.@


I have given you you two verses taken from the OCA site with links.which say Jesus was demon possessed and mad.

That Jesus  was crucified should be proof enough he was a blasphemous liar and a lunatic.

The bible tells us Jesus was crucified and not sacrificed.

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@Harikrish
You are trying to use texts  written by believers in Jesus Christ who were tortured and killed for their beliefs to prove that they  believed Jesus was crazy.

I don't think there is anything else to say.