The Solution To Poverty?

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Posts in total: 322

--> @Smithereens
I agree. 

I am not talking about printing money.

The IOU's I am proposing are not divisional units of a country's wealth. It isn't money.

I know why we have inflation. I just don't think we have to have it. We have inflation because we tie money to the country's total wealth. We don't have to.
--> @keithprosser
Hence prices will go up massively. 
Yes, they will. But the market will correct. No one will buy your car if they think it's too expensive. Plus, opportunists will always be there to offer the same product for less.

Having a million dollars will not suddenly make people ignore or forget what value is.

...if every body has a million 'dollars' they might feel they don't want any more dollars but would prefer to barter goods.
This seem irrational to me. Millionaires want their money only if no one else has millions?

Bartering happens now. People do not barter because they don't want dollars. They barter for convenience and because they don't have money.
--> @ethang5
Ah. You don't know what "pegged" means. Money is not pegged to the value of products, it is pegged to the sovereign wealth of countries. So that a dollar represents one unit of a country's wealth divided by how many dollars there are.

Sorry. I thought any college grad would know this.
Why would any college grad know it, when it has not been true since 1971, when we officially abandoned the gold standard? At that time, we went from representative money, which is money that represents some underlying commodity, to fiat money, which is money that is backed only by the say so of government and people's agreement that it has value, not by any commodity. It doesn't sound like you are proposing anything different than fiat money. Please look up fiat money, and tell us how your proposed IOU's would differ.


Why would any college grad know it, when it has not been true since 1971, when we officially abandoned the gold standard?
It has nothing to do with gold. And I said nothing about gold.

...to fiat money, which is money that is backed only by the say so of government and people's agreement that it has value, not by any commodity. It doesn't sound like you are proposing anything different than fiat money. 
Yet you said no one knows what I'm talking about when I said money that isn't pegged to anything. All of a sudden, you can conceive of pegless money.

Please look up fiat money, and tell us how your proposed IOU's would differ.
Please, there is no need for pretense here, you said...
If so, then how is it not "pegged" to the value of tires, cars, and haircuts?
Money has never been pegged to the value of tires, cars, and haircuts. You went to look it up, found fait money, and now wish to pretend you knew it all along.

You could not have, because you said,
If not, then what value does it have for anyone?
When exactly did you know about...

money that is backed only by the say so of government and people's agreement that it has value,[?]
Fiat money is still considered denominations of the country's wealth, only the value of that wealth is decided by fiat.

What I propose is not tied to the countries wealth in ANY way. How much sovereign wealth the country has makes no difference to it's value.
What I propose is not tied to the countries wealth in ANY way.
Then that "money" is worthless and nobody will want to accept it for anything. How is that gonna help? 

--> @Buddamoose
Then that "money" is worthless and nobody will want to accept it for anything. How is that gonna help? 
This makes no sense. First, why? You just seem to take it as an established truth. Second, many things have value though are not representative of any other thing.

Value can be based on perception alone. Things will have value if people think they have value.



which is money that is backed only by the say so of government and people's agreement that it has value, not by any commodity

This is misrepresentative of fiat currencies. These currencies are still tied to commodities, but rather than it being a single commodity, its tied to the sovereign nations GDP, or the value of goods and services produced in a given year, and the ability of the sovereign state to pay its debts to a degree. The fiat currencies are still linked to a "basket of goods and services", but rather than being a single good such as gold, or two such as gold and silver, everything is included in the basket. 

For example, there are approximately $1.425(in billions) in circulation for US currency alone as of 2015. That is just 7.9% of GDP. Of which the US government still brings in tax revenues of about 4 trillion a year. One may wonder, "how can the US govt bring in 4 trillion in tax revenue yearly, if that is greater than the total dollars in circulation? Because the government spends it all and it immediately goes back into circulation. Plus, though budgets are done annually, revenues and expenses operate either quarterly or monthly as they roll in and that revenue is then apportioned for the various budgeted expenses. 

Basically, even if everyone traded in their dollars for another currency standard, the US could still feasibly cover the cost of such a standard change. But because it is still in good shape, people aren't generally wont to change that standard. 

Before i make another observation, ive got to clarify, is 4,000(in billions and excluding the Yuan) is 4 trillion right? 🤔. Thats the amount of currency in circulation globally excluding the Yuan which is kept undisclosed. Broad money, or non liquid assets, such as properties, is closer to 80 trillion. So if im not mistaken, the entire globe is indebted cause I'm pretty sure global debt totals for all nations combined surpass that 80 trillion mark 🤔

It doesnt actually, as a qhole debt is at 233 trillion as of third quarter of 2017 in total of which national debts are but a part of that.🔥😰, phew, thats alot of debt.


This makes no sense. First, why?

Because even fiat currencies are still tied, even if indirectly, to a "basket" of goods and services. If the US didnt create 18.7 trillion and rising in GDP yearly, and instead created nothing, the dollar would be worthless. Its directly tied to the government's backing of it and it's ability to pay debts summarily, which is tied to the tax revenues of that nation, which is itself tied to the GDP(goods+services). Not a direct link, but an indirect one. 

This is similar to your Bitcoin example. Where botcoin is tied to national currency standards, which are then tied in a few more steps to the goods and services being produced. Value still starts at goods and services. No goods and services, no currency value. 

Things will have value if people think they have value

And people will think they have value only if the currency they're being handed is exchangeable for goods and services. If you inject 350 trillion of value into the economy overnight, goods and services cannot also, inject 350 trillion worth in that same overnight span. You will have a ballooned supply of money, which will create demand, but supply for.that demand cannot increase anywhere close to as quick. And when supply cannot meet demand, prices rise. They rise too far, that money is effectively worthless and people abandon it. Defeating the purpose of giving them all that money to begin with 🤔

Why do you think deflation(price drops) happens when currency supply either remains static or is removed from circulation? Because now there is less money, but a static or increasing supply of goods and services 🤔. That money is worth more in turn. Big issue with that as we all know, is that creates an atmosphere where people are incentivized to not spend and rather hold onto their money. Which creates an economic death spiral
--> @Buddamoose
Because even fiat currencies are still tied, even if indirectly, to a "basket" of goods and services. 
I know. I did not bring up fiat money, and what I propose is not fiat money. I was the 
who said that what I propose was different because fiat money is still pegged to a country's wealth.

This is similar to your Bitcoin example. Where botcoin is tied to national currency standards, which are then tied in a few more steps to the goods and services being produced. 
What does your "tied" mean? It cannot mean the same as "pegged" because that would mean that some guy can come up with his own money and tap into the country's sovereign wealth without the consent of the govt. or people. 

Bitcoin has value and is not pegged to, or representative of, any physical wealth whatsoever.

No goods and services, no currency value. 
This is clearly not always true. Value can be based on perception only.
--> @ethang5
The tricky part is, you are right that there is a subjective element to value and that if we could feasibly get people to still percieve that injected money has the same value, we'd be in the clear. 

But uh, how would we accomplish that? These things are a part of "the invisible hand" they result from how people naturally operate in regards to economics. As was pointed out earlier, if one got 1 million dollars overnight, it would become much harder to incentivize one to sell any goods or services they have for the same price as previous, especially if they knew, as they would, that everyone else just got 1millon also, woops, looks like inflation just came barging through the wall like the kool-aid mascot. 😂

--> @Buddamoose
Why do you think deflation(price drops) happens when currency supply either remains static or is removed from circulation? 
Because that currency is pegged to the country's wealth. That is not what I'm talking about. Sorry, I don't know how much more plainly I can say it.

Bitcoin has not caused increases in demand, or death spirals. But I may have to accept that I cannot make you think outside the box of econ 101.
This is clearly not always true. Value can be based on perception only

But this is the exception, not the general rule. Art would be an area that is highly subjective as to value. But for most everything else, the opposite is true. 
Bitcoin has not caused increases in demand, or death spirals.

Because bitcoin is still tied to currencies. Last i checked, you purchase Bitcoin with national currencies, and can exchange it back for those same national currencies. 

"Tied", as in linked, its value is still determined by the national currency it can be exchanged for. That national currency is determined in part by the nations ability to cover the total amount of currency in circulation, which js determined by tax revenues, which is determined by percentage of GDP, which is a representative amount of goods and services. 

"Thinking outside the box"

Incorporating your idea and having it work would require a total abandonment of the basic operatives of economics. If you are already advocating for that which would require that, why stop short at trying to operate as if that system hasn't been fundamentally altered. Why not just advocate for an abandonment of these fundamental principles and the system they are the foundation of(capitalism), and say we should just take away all money and people are just given what they need to survive? 

That would solve poverty too, without requiring operating as if X is true when X is false. X being, that said currency still retains the same value as before, after 350 trillion is injected into the economy. 


Sounds like you are trying to dance around that you want to have your cake(profit incentive of capitalism which equals innovation and production) and eat it too(do without the necessary negative aspects therein). 

Thats not exactly thinking outside the box, thats trying to remove the foundation holding the box up while staying inside of it, and acting like the box isnt gonna consequentially cave in on oneself 🤔

There isnt some secret kabal dictating these effects, these are natural effects that are general rules of how people operate economically. Its not like we can snap our fingers and *poof* people no longer will operate this way. And assuming we can accomplish that, it would undoubtedly require severely unethical methods by which to ensure its successful implementation. Basically, you couldn't maintain free market capitalism, and incorporate your plan and its necessity to fundamentally alter economic behavior in a relatively free market, which is just an extension of the behavior of the free people therein. And if you do away with one, you necessarily do away with the other. 🤔
--> @ethang5

What exactly would be the economic reasons this would not work?


Dollar looses all value and becomes moot.  Happens to many currencies over the years. Monetary values { economics }, like human laws, comes and goes.

Money is just one avenue for the motivations of the spirit  ergo power and control via money motivates the spirit.

Stuff { standard of living } via money motivates the spirit.

Remove the money factor from Earth and what is motivating factors of humans?

Clean air, water food, sex and shelter. We still have power/control but without money the must used another avenue.

Violence has been a common avenue in the past to gain control/power.

Spirit-of-intent is what motivates humans. A desire to feel competent at getting air, water, food, sex and shelter.

Humans want to feel competent at whatever it is they do.  Remove money and violence then we are left to spirit-of-intent as to what motivates the human. 




--> @Buddamoose
This is misrepresentative of fiat currencies. These currencies are still tied to commodities, but rather than it being a single commodity, its tied to the sovereign nations GDP, or the value of goods and services produced in a given year, and the ability of the sovereign state to pay its debts to a degree. The fiat currencies are still linked to a "basket of goods and services", but rather than being a single good such as gold, or two such as gold and silver, everything is included in the basket. 

It was not a misrepresentation. The way fiat currency is linked to a basket of commodities is through supply and demand, not through government guaranteeing that X dollars are exchangeable for Y amount of commodities. A car is worth as many dollars as people agree it's worth. Yes, GDP affects the market, but through supply and demand, not through government guarantee of some fixed value. I would not call that "tied" in the same way as currency used to be tied to gold.  





--> @ethang5
What I propose is not tied to the countries wealth in ANY way. How much sovereign wealth the country has makes no difference to it's value.
Okay, I'll simplify.

A country's wealth is the value of goods and services it produces.

How can something be exchangeable for some of those goods and services, yet not be tied to them in any way?

--> @ethang5
We have inflation because we tie money to the country's total wealth. We don't have to.
In your opinion, what does money represent? 

--> @Stronn
How can something be exchangeable for some of those goods and services, yet not be tied to them in any way?
If both parties feel that thing has value. So a Chinese girl may "sell" her virginity for dollars. How is her virginity "tied" to the wealth of America? It isn't. People (some men) just believe it has value.

And this is the point on which my argument is understood. We have economic laws, but they are not like the laws of physics. They do not describe how things are, but how things can be. They are made by man and are not irrefutable. Physical laws are discovered, not decreed.

But if you are unable to see that, of course you will treat economic "laws" as if they are phsycal laws, and few breaking them as you would view breaking physical laws.

Sometimes education itself can be a roadblock to more education.
--> @Smithereens
In your opinion, what does money represent? 
It can represent all the wealth of a group like a country or countries, it can represent a single thing like gold, or fish, on a tiny island nation, or it could represent itself, as in, the value it "represents" rests within the "money" itself. As in the days of gold coins.

Now we have digital money that represent nothing at all except what people THINK. It has no inherent value. It is not divisional units of any wealth anywhere. Tomorrow it could be worthless based solely on what people think.

Inflation is real the way a human perception is real. It is real only because we think its real. It is not real the same way gravity is real.

This fact allows me to see that we are not as restricted by economic "laws" as most believe we are.

Though the title of the thread is ending poverty, that is not aim. Poverty itself is just like inflation, it exists only in the human mind. It does not need to exist. It isn't a physical law.

--> @ethang5
Just two more questions then, what is trade? and what is currency? 

--> @Smithereens
I'll accept the dictionary's definition with the understanding that words change meaning in context changes.