Should it be illegal to use (legal) drugs while pregnant?

Author: bmdrocks21

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TheRealNihilist
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I can't think of a much better alternative to fix this problem. It may be a bandage fix, but across most states, there is essentially abortion on demand for any reason and it has been for years (excluding Georgia and Alabama and maybe a handful of others). The problem still widely occurs. So, since we cannot eliminate addiction and abortion doesn't prevent it, I can see no better choice.
I guess it is good. How about birth control? 
Getting caught involves fines and can be either a misdemeanor or a felony based on the circumstances. https://www.alcohol.org/laws/supplying-alcohol-to-a-minor/
I don't think it is taken seriously. If it is then I am wrong but if it isn't. Improve enforcement.
Yeah, I kinda despise anti-vaxxers, myself. I don't recall any mention in the Bible about vaccinations. I don't think any recognized religion requires you to drink alcohol.
Anti-vaxxers I am sure would use the 1st amendment to defend what they doing just like people drinking alcohol. It may not be as cancerous as the anti-vaxxers but I wouldn't know until people who like alcohol a lot have their drink threatened. 
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@TheRealNihilist
I think we should encourage and educate people about birth control. Abortion should not be used as a form of birth control. It should be strictly for emergencies.

It is somewhat hard to catch people selling alcohol to minors. It is a low priority crime as well. But yes, enforcement should be improved somehow.

I do wonder what would happen. I think that religion can only be invoked if it is a "recognized" religion. There must be a certain amount of members and certain criteria to meet. Not sure if they could use it, but perhaps.
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@bmdrocks21
I think we should encourage and educate people about birth control. Abortion should not be used as a form of birth control. It should be strictly for emergencies.
What makes abortion better not birth control?

It is somewhat hard to catch people selling alcohol to minors. It is a low priority crime as well. But yes, enforcement should be improved somehow.
It kinda has to if birth defects are taken seriously along with other substances that can cause birth defects.

I do wonder what would happen. I think that religion can only be invoked if it is a "recognized" religion. There must be a certain amount of members and certain criteria to meet. Not sure if they could use it, but perhaps.
I don't really know another reason why such a health risk like anti-vaxxers are allowed if it wasn't because of the 1st amendment. 
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@TheRealNihilist
I was saying that anti-vaxxers must be somehow connected to a recognized mainstream religion. Personally, I think that if that is the route they want to take, they should live in separate communities like the Amish.

Yes, unfortunately these easily avoidable birth defects aren't taken seriously enough. It seems like a common sense bill to me. Sure the implementation might take a bit to work out, but preventing the ruination of someone's entire life is motivation enough for me.

Your first point was worded a little oddly. I think you are wondering why I make a distinction between "birth control" and abortion. Might just be a force of habit. When I refer to "birth control" I am talking about contraception- things that prevent you from becoming pregnant in the first place. So condoms, shots, and pills that prevent pregnancy are fine by me. Terminating a pregnancy is very rarely acceptable in my opinion.
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@bmdrocks21
I was saying that anti-vaxxers must be somehow connected to a recognized mainstream religion. Personally, I think that if that is the route they want to take, they should live in separate communities like the Amish.
That would be beneficial so that other people are not fucked for their choices.

Yes, unfortunately these easily avoidable birth defects aren't taken seriously enough. It seems like a common sense bill to me. Sure the implementation might take a bit to work out, but preventing the ruination of someone's entire life is motivation enough for me.
That would be cool.

Your first point was worded a little oddly. I think you are wondering why I make a distinction between "birth control" and abortion. Might just be a force of habit. When I refer to "birth control" I am talking about contraception- things that prevent you from becoming pregnant in the first place. So condoms, shots, and pills that prevent pregnancy are fine by me. Terminating a pregnancy is very rarely acceptable in my opinion.
Oh I did read your statement wrong. My bad. Yeah contraception is the best. I would say birth control pils are better than condoms. Here is a link. Quote "Women and men both report a reduced level of pleasure from sex when using a condom. This is often due to incorrect condom sizing and can often be fixed by switching to a different size, type or brand of condom." Why waste your time find the right condom size when you can use a pill instead? 
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I'm glad we are coming to an understanding. :)

For the final one.... ladies sometimes don't like the mess.... lol

But typically "the pill" or depo shots are the most effective and most insurance companies cover a lot of their cost.
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For the final one.... ladies sometimes don't like the mess.... lol
I am sure that condoms reduce pleasure so I don't see why someone would want to reduce pleasure over being more clean since sex isn't really clean in the first place depending on what you do and besides you can clean afterwards anyway or hope that you cleaned yourself before having sex so that it is actually more on the side of being clean than not so clean sex.

But typically "the pill" or depo shots are the most effective and most insurance companies cover a lot of their cost.
I don't know. Guess I have to look at data.

I'm glad we are coming to an understanding. :)
I guess there is nothing more to talk about. Cool ideas that I think would be difficult to implement. 

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@bmdrocks21
Yes and the majority of people believe that third trimester abortions should be illegal. You probably agree with that. 
Yes, i do. 

 My problem here is that you are saying that what the majority of people agree with or desire is what is best policy-wise.
No I'm not. I have already given arguments why your position is not the best policy wise. (a fetus isn't a person, forcing medical procedures on people etc). The unpopularity of your position is a secondary point. The fact that the vast majority of people disagree with you was just to highlight that your position of banning all abortion is extremely unpopular and cannot be implemented. So no one should look at that as a viable position. 

Now, part of the reason that most people want to keep Roe v Wade is because they don't know what it is. They think that if it is overturned that abortion becomes illegal. All it would do is take the federal government out of the picture and states can pass any laws they wish.
I'm not aware of anyone that thinks that. Maybe there are lots and I just haven't met any. Roe v. Wade established that women have a right to an abortion without undue government interference. That includes from a state. 

I'm treating this like the crime of murder, essentially. If you get an abortion because you would die, it is self-defense.
This is a problem. You are looking at a fetus as a person with the legal protections of a person when it is not. It cannot be a murder if the thing being terminated is not a person. 

I don't think it is okay to get one for monetary reasons, just like I don't think you should kill your toddler because of financial reasons.
A toddler has passed the threshold of becoming a person. It now has the rights and protections of a person. A fetus has not. 

"No one is forcing you to have an abortion" isn't quite a strong argument. Someone back in the 1800's could say "no one is forcing you to have slaves".
Lol no, they were forcing the slaves. Even during the high water point of american slavery they understood the slaves were people. 

I thought we agreed earlier that the fetus wasn't part of the woman. That would mean that anti-abortion laws aren't violating what a woman can do with her own body. It is protecting against what a woman will do to her child's body.
Does she have to carry a pregnancy to term against her will? Does she have to undergo a medical procedure (the birth) against her will? Then that is violating her right to control her own body. 
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I am not trying to abolish abortion. I am saying that there should be some sort of justification to have one. Someone's crime against her such as rape or if she would die are substantial reasons under what I would propose. You think that before a certain stage of development, any reason is permissible.

We essentially disagree on when personhood should be attributed.

Additionally, you are arguing that a toddler has the rights and protections of a person, while a fetus does not. That is certainly true based on current laws. I disagree with the current laws.

They protected slavery under their right to property. So, slaves were considered property, not people.

If I eat a cake, is that cake violating my right to have a slim body? Or is that decision the normal consequence of eating unhealthy food? By making bad life choices, you have become pregnant, which is the normal consequence of intercourse. Nobody forced you to do that(typically), so I am saying that from your decisions, you have given birth to a new life. That fetus is not the woman nor the father, it is a unique, living human life. I don't think you have the right to end a life because you make poor decisions. 
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@bmdrocks21
I am not trying to abolish abortion. I am saying that there should be some sort of justification to have one.
You want to make it only permissible under extremely limited circumstances. That isn't quite abolishing it, but it is just a hair short of it. 

We essentially disagree on when personhood should be attributed.
Yes. A fertilized egg is obviously not a person. It has none of the characteristics of being a person. 

They protected slavery under their right to property. So, slaves were considered property, not people.
They knew they were people, they just didn't want them to be a legal person with the rights that go with that. Women weren't legal persons either but I don't think anyone was arguing they were a different species. 

If I eat a cake, is that cake violating my right to have a slim body? Or is that decision the normal consequence of eating unhealthy food? By making bad life choices, you have become pregnant, which is the normal consequence of intercourse.
This is such a terrible argument that in any other circumstance would be laughed at. No one forced you to go snowboarding, so if you get hurt we should refuse to help you because that is the consequence of sports. No one forced you to smoke so we should refuse you medical care for cancer because that is the consequences of your bad choices. You see how silly that argument is? Everyone makes bad choices. Unless those bad choices are criminal in nature, that doesn't mean that your rights are suspended. 

I don't think you have the right to end a life because you make poor decisions. 
People end lives every single day. you have killed untold numbers of animals in your life time. So ending a life in general is nothing particularly significant. It is only significant if it is a human life. Which a fetus is not. 
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No, I believe that you should help people that get hurt snowboarding. You should help people who have unwanted pregnancies to. I don't believe that help entails killing a baby. The entire biological point of sex is to reproduce, so I don't know why everyone is so shocked of "unplanned" pregnancies. 

Ok, if a fetus isn't a "human life", is it a dog? A cat? A mouse? It clearly has human DNA. You stated earlier that you value human life. It is alive and human. Just because it is in a different stage of development, doesn't mean its life doesn't have value. People with fully developed brains matter just as much as those who don't. People before puberty matter just as much as those who haven't gone through it. A fetus is just at an earlier stage of development. 

So: either human lives matter or they do not. Any requirement other than being human is entirely arbitrary. Anyone who said "kids who haven't reached puberty don't matter and can be killed for any reason" could base their entire argument from the same place that you are just as consistently if a culture puts arbitrary value on fertility.
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@bmdrocks21
No, I believe that you should help people that get hurt snowboarding. You should help people who have unwanted pregnancies to. I don't believe that help entails killing a baby. 
Oh I understand. So you believe that people should get help when they make a poor choice, but only in the very specific way you want to help, not the help they want or need. So if they break their leg snowboarding, they would want a cast put on, but we aren't comfortable helping them that way. Instead we will cut off their leg. 

Ok, if a fetus isn't a human, is it a dog? A cat? A mouse? It clearly has human DNA. You stated earlier that you value human life. It is alive and human.
It is alive. It has human DNA. But it isn't a person yet. Is an acorn a tree? no it is an acorn. Is a fetus a person, also no. An acorn might grow into a tree, a fetus might grow in to a person. But neither of them have passed that threshold yet. 

So: either human lives matter or they do not. Any requirement other than being human is entirely arbitrary.
We disagree on what makes a clump of cells a human. 

Anyone who said "kids who haven't reached puberty doesn't matter and can be killed for any reason" could base their entire argument from the same place that you are just as consistently if a culture puts arbitrary value on fertility.
You are picking an arbitrary point as well. You could extend the argument to include semen as a human, or an egg. You are picking a point and planting a flag saying that is a person. Most people disagree. The science does not support your position either. A fertilized egg has no brain, no organs. It is just a clump of cells. That isn't a person. 
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Lol, of course you shouldn't help people in the way they want. If someone steals your bike and you want me to kill them and take it back, I'm not going to do that. Now, if they NEED an abortion, I'd let them get one. The only time when they NEED it is if they are going to die.

I don't know why the sperm and egg being "human" is so widely used as an argument. Sure those cells could become a human, but they aren't a human. They are gametes. As soon as an egg is fertilized, it becomes a human. It has all the chromosomes and DNA to prove it. No scientist has ever said that having organs is what makes you human. Again, I don't have an appendix, but I am still a human.

The sperm is the father's DNA and the egg is the woman's DNA. The fertilized cell is not the woman, nor is it the father. It is a separate person. You don't want to give value to a human life because it doesn't have kidneys, a stomach, etc. That is arbitrary. It is not at all arbitrary to say that once you have created a life, it becomes valuable.
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Lol, of course you shouldn't help people in the way they want. If someone steals your bike and you want me to kill them and take it back, I'm not going to do that.
The help they want/need is to get their bike back. I would assume you would do that. The help a person who wants to terminate their pregnancy needs is to help to terminate the pregnancy. You are advocating for doing the exact opposite of that by forcing them to continue it against their will. So in your example that would be something along the lines of, they ask for help with their bike so you punch them and steal their wallet. 

 As soon as an egg is fertilized, it becomes a human. It has all the chromosomes and DNA to prove it. No scientist has ever said that having organs is what makes you human. Again, I don't have an appendix, but I am still a human.
Having human DNA doesn't make something a human. We can grow cells in a lab with unique human DNA, that doesn't make it a human. Your example is that you are missing one organ, but you have all of the rest. I don't think there are many scientists that would agree that a tiny cluster of cells with no organs whatsoever is a human. 

You don't want to give value to a human life because it doesn't have kidneys, a stomach, etc. That is arbitrary.
I don't want to assign human value on a cluster of cells that have none of the characteristics of being human. It has no consciousness, it has no organs, it just a cluster of cells no different that any other cluster of cells except the DNA is slightly different. If that is your standard then any mutated cells, Parasitic twins etc would also be counted as a human even though they obviously aren't. Your definition is far too loose to be valid. 
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About as accurate as I can be: Let us say you sold your bike for $1. You regret your decision and want me to beat them up and take it back. I refuse to hurt the other party because you regret your poor life choices. They didn't force you to make that deal, but now that you did, you cannot hurt that person for the deal's result.

I am missing one organ. Why does it matter that I have "all of the rest"? Because I am still living? Well, a fetus is alive, too. The thing is, there is absolutely no science to back the claim that a fetus isn't human, nor that it isn't alive. It obviously isn't dead, and it isn't a non-human species. The only argument is whether that life matters. A scientist might personally think a fetus doesn't matter, but they would agree that it is a living human creature. And since they are human and living, I value their life.

I keep this definition loose and objective for a reason. Governments have historically considered certain groups of humans to be sub-human based on their race and religion. This is the same thing, except it is based on age.
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You can rebut that, but I feel as though we are not making any progress.

How is life, my dude?
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@bmdrocks21
fair enough. 

not too bad. how are you?
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I'm quite swell, thank you.

What do you do for fun?
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This has inevitably become just another Pro/Con abortion debate with a slightly different introductory slant.

Am I correct in assuming that it is usually men who instigate this sort of debate.

Some might even say that they detect a mildly misogynistic air about proceedings.! 
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Did you just assume our genders, you fascist?

:P

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This has inevitably become just another Pro/Con abortion debate with a slightly different introductory slant.
Pretty much. The main reason it became so was that it is extremely difficult to imagine a scenario where additional protections for a fetus could be introduced that would not be abused by people trying to ban abortion. So the abortion debate would need to be settled 1st to prevent this occurring.

Am I correct in assuming that it is usually men who instigate this sort of debate.
I am male. I cant speak for bmdrocks21

Some might even say that they detect a mildly misogynistic air about proceedings.! 
I'm not certain how wanting women to be allowed to make whatever decision they want could be considered misogynistic. 
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I am male. 

I don't see how preventing child murder is somehow misogynistic.
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I don't know why people say anti-abortion has to be a misogynistic stance. People aren't anti-abortion because they want to punish woman, except for maybe some super-minority. 
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They appear to think differently in Alabama, maybe.

And I did say mildly misogynistic, more in reference to the general make up of debaters who regularly debate this topic.
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Not from Alabama. Maybe some debaters are misogynistic. I can't speak for them.
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And I did say mildly misogynistic, more in reference to the general make up of debaters who regularly debate this topic.
I haven't done a poll or anything, but in my experience, the majority of people who go on debating sites tend to be men. So it is more a reflection of the population of the site than of the misogyny of the people on it.