QFS1 - End Game

Author: drafterman

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ILikePie5
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@SirAnonymous
It's the small things that I have problems seeing. I'm great at logic. I'm terrible at reading behavior.

Dw that was me at the beginning, you’ll get it. Key is not overthinking it and try to find subconscious behaviors.
frenzy
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@Lunatic
I know you were asking drafter, but I think it would so long as I wasn't targeted by them first. Mafia night kill usually takes precedence over town actions.
Yeah, I was just wondering, sometimes roleblocks don't effect mafia faction kills, depends on the mod/setup. Anyway, congrats on the win.

SirAnonymous
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@Lunatic
@drafterman
Being a tailor and knowing all the roles made it too easy because you didn't have to worry about a counterclaim.
Lunatic
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@SirAnonymous
Your play as mafia is so brilliant it's frightening. I'm going to have to read you as guilty until proven innocent after this.
This is unfortunately one of the reasons I stopped playing mafia for a while lol. I gambit a lot as mafia usually successfully, and after a while people stop trusting me even when I am actually town, and I start getting mis-lynched early or killed off early. Or mods start making me mafia all the time. Right before I quit I had a serious year straight where I was only mafia, and it was getting ridiculous lol. Mods kept claiming role were randomized but I think like 10 games as scum in a row is too big a coincidence lol. I actually prefer playing town, even though I am not as good at it. It's less stressful.

Speedrace
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@Lunatic
I really want you to be my Mafia partner after this just to see what havoc we can wreak
SirAnonymous
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@Lunatic
The only person who caught you by your behavior was Pie, who also saw through Speed, Supa and I in the office. I think I'm going to pay more attention to his reads.
Lunatic
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@SirAnonymous
Being a tailor and knowing all the roles made it too easy because you didn't have to worry about a counterclaim.
The chances of a counter claim with that many available roles were pretty low. Also I did claim nurse knowing that there was a protective role (pie's angel). 

Also I would have been pretty underpowered without knowing all the roles. Tailor was pretty much useless with a coroner, also people were told they are suited when they are killed. Also was only able to tailor using in game roles, and there's only so many times people are gonna believe a person who is CC'ed by a graveyarded person was lying as town. 

Also the game could have ended before it even started if I killed you NP1, or if I was watched NP1. Even with knowledge of all the roles, this was a struggle for me to make right decisions lol
SirAnonymous
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@Speedrace
I really want you to be my Mafia partner after this just to see what havoc we can wreak
That would be a nightmare for town.

Lunatic
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@Speedrace
I really want you to be my Mafia partner after this just to see what havoc we can wreak
That might have been a good idea a couple games ago, but now everyone is just gonna suspect us all the time lol
Speedrace
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@Lunatic
@SirAnonymous
Lolll
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@frenzy
ah, I was just wondering, sometimes roleblocks don't effect mafia faction kills, depends on the mod/setup. Anyway, congrats on the win.


ty trekie, you should play sometime
Speedrace
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@SirAnonymous
Pie saw through our whole team last game. When he speaks, we better listen lol
SirAnonymous
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@Speedrace
Pie is the town counterpart of you and Lunatic. We should indeed listen to him.
drafterman
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@frenzy
Yes, it would.
drafterman
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@ILikePie5
After I get some feedback I am going to make some tweeks to the rules and set-ups. I will be on vacation next week, so I'll be ready for another series when I get back.

I am particularly interested how people feel about how I handled the voting. I think it went well and I really like doing it this way, so I'm heavily in favor of keeping it. I'll probably write in the 1-hour quick count down thing I implemented DP1 as well as the exception I did when Press got lynched.

I'm also interested in what people feel about the "visiting" thing.

Basically, I explicitly write in a role PM whether it "visits" in order to perform its action (e.g. Angel and Watcher don't; Tailor and Redirector do; etc.)
Lunatic
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@drafterman
I want to thank everyone for engaging in what was essentially a beta test of roles and features I've been eager to try out for a while. So I would also appreciate any constructive feedback. My goal was to have all information available up front so there wouldn't be any confusion about how roles work.
I like the open set up and nature of these games. I also like the idea of all roles coming from that pool of roles on your list, makes fake claiming more strategical. I can see a lot of cool game designs stemming from some of the roles in that list.

As far as the tailor goes, I am not sure I fully understand the utility of the role as much with the restrictions. For example, giving a message to a player telling them they are suited seems redundant, and also giving the full role of a mislynched player before the tailor has a chance to tailor them the following night phase. That and the fact that I can only tailor with in games roles, meant the role was pretty limiting. You balanced that by giving me information about players roles in the game, so I am not saying I was under-powered, just that the utility of the tailor seemed pretty pointless given the game mechanics.

Also was everything really random? I mean I won't push it if the game was really random, but I also won't knock you if it wasn't, making a third party angel's protection target a bomb seemed pretty clever. Also the tailor/coroner thing seemed not random lol. 


SirAnonymous
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@drafterman
The one thing I didn't like about the voting was the automatic end when everyone votes. I think it would be better to let time run out if town can't agree on the lynch. On the other hand, it did go faster. I really liked how fast you got the DP's up once everyone had picked their night actions. I really liked not having to wait an arbitrary amount of time for the next DP.
SirAnonymous
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@Lunatic
@drafterman
Also was everything really random? I mean I won't push it if the game was really random, but I also won't knock you if it wasn't, making a third party angel's protection target a bomb seemed pretty clever. Also the tailor/coroner thing seemed not random lol. 
Those did seem rather contrived.

Lunatic
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@PressF4Respect
Press why did you lie about your np1 actions? Also why did you even use the role?
Lunatic
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I agree with SA about ending the phase when everyone votes, I am not a fan of that mechanic. 
drafterman
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@Lunatic
@SirAnonymous
@Lunatic
As far as the tailor goes, I am not sure I fully understand the utility of the role as much with the restrictions. For example, giving a message to a player telling them they are suited seems redundant, and also giving the full role of a mislynched player before the tailor has a chance to tailor them the following night phase. That and the fact that I can only tailor with in games roles, meant the role was pretty limiting. You balanced that by giving me information about players roles in the game, so I am not saying I was under-powered, just that the utility of the tailor seemed pretty pointless given the game mechanics.
It's a role basically stolen from EM as-is. Its utility is to obfuscate the flips to withhold information from the town. In that sense, it's on par with a janitor as the Town is denied that information unless they have something like a Coroner. The difference is that the Mafia doesn't get what the real role was, but this is also countered by the fact that the living townie that has that role might be tempted to out themselves.

The message to the player is stolen from EM as well and it balances out the power of the Tailor. Either they have to kill that exact person that night, or risk the target alerting Town that a tailor exist.

But there is some WIFOM involved as the Tailor themselves could say they received a suit. If they are ever lynched or killed, Town can't be sure whether or not they were lying or telling the truth. The person is only notified that they received a suit, not the role the suit is associated with.

@Sir
The one thing I didn't like about the voting was the automatic end when everyone votes. I think it would be better to let time run out if town can't agree on the lynch. On the other hand, it did go faster. I really liked how fast you got the DP's up once everyone had picked their night actions. I really liked not having to wait an arbitrary amount of time for the next DP.
Well, it is a quickfire. My reasoning is thus:
 
1. It doubles as activity requirement. You have to get your but in the game and do something or you get ejected.
2. It prevents quick hammering. While some people may consider this just a known element that should just be worked around, for a non-live forum game, I think a mechanic that favors people simply for being online at one time versus another isn't really fair. By requiring everyone to vote everyone can be held accountable.
3. Also, it eliminates certain auto-lose scenarios. Consider the issue that arose in Office Mafia with the hated Mechanic. Hated at LYLO is auto lose, meaning the Hated has to be discovered and auto lynched before then, or Town risks autolosing. That is poor game design. Warren got around that by dropping the Hated at LYLO. This voting mechanic also gets rid of it because, #2, no quick hammering. The mafia would have to out themselves by voting the Hated, upon which the remaining town can vote the Mafia. In that case both the hated townie and mafia would die, leaving just the remaining townie, which is a win for town. Knowing this, LYLO shifts from being autowin/autolose to the battle of deceit and wits Mafia is supposed to be.
drafterman
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And yes, everything was randomized.
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Another question I have is if you all think I should restrict possible setups to purposefuly avoid "orphaned" roles, like a coroner without a corresponding graveyard manipulation role (tailor, janitor) or if it should just be random, allowing for possible broken setups.
frenzy
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@Lunatic
ty trekie, you should play sometime
I plan to when I have a less busy schedule. I was mostly just skimming this one, but I remember the Nusrse claim was sus for me because I would have waived the night kill on N1 too. :)

frenzy
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@drafterman
Yes, it would.
Gotcha.

I'm also interested in what people feel about the "visiting" thing.

Basically, I explicitly write in a role PM whether it "visits" in order to perform its action (e.g. Angel and Watcher don't; Tailor and Redirector do; etc.)
I think it's always a good thing when it's transparent to players how "standard" roles work and interact with each other. I also like how you provide the formatting of the result-messages to players in the google doc.

drafterman
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@frenzy
Yeah, it's a personal pet peeve of mine when players go down a rabbit hole of how roles interact or what they do as I don't think the game should hinge on those things. So I wanted to be very open about what the roles do and the messages they produce. And the visiting thing is literal: if the role doesn't have the word "visit" in it, it doesn't visit.
SirAnonymous
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@drafterman
My problem wasn't that everyone had to vote. I liked that. My problem was that the game ended automatically once everyone had voted.
I don't think it matters whether you avoid orphan roles or include them and allow the game to be broken or allow them but require the other role to be present as well so long as you say which option you picked.
drafterman
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@SirAnonymous
Ah, I see. Yeah that's a fair point.
PressF4Respect
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@Lunatic
I didn’t lie about NP1. It’s just that I called NP1 NP0.
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@Lunatic
Also good job on your win!