the bible is real and YHWH is the one true god, now what?

Author: 3RU7AL ,

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  • 3RU7AL
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    3RU7AL
    (IFF) there is variation in the interpretation of the holy scriptures (multiple Christian denominations) (THEN) the holy scriptures cannot be the true and plain, infallible, perfect, literal word of an all-wise and all-knowing god.

    You don't know that.
    I'm pretty sure I do know that, and you can too, by applying simple logic.
    Nobody disputes the existence of a particular copy of the holy scriptures.
    I can present the book and any two people, regardless of their preconceptions, can agree the book exists.
    The words are also not in dispute. The words exist. We can agree on the words printed on the page.
    I can even generously grant that this book and these words are "the one and only true and infallible word of god".

    Great. That's great. We agree on that much. We agree up to that point.

    The trick is, that even if we agree on everything up to this point, 100%, we still DON'T agree on the APPLICATION of those words.

    How does this perfect book and these perfect words INFORM my daily life?

    What PRACTICAL VALUE does this perfect book actually have?

    That's the bright line.
    That's the line between FACT and OPINION.
    That's the line that clearly demarcates Catholic from Episcopal, that specific line is what distinguishes between Baptist and Methodist.
    In one part it says, LOVE THINE ENEMY, and in another part it says, KILL ALL ENEMY CIVILIANS INCLUDING CHILDREN AND LIVESTOCK (except for the virgin females of course, give them to the Priests as servants for the rest of their lives).

    What MEANING am I supposed to glean from this?

    You are making a claim about something we cannot know. We are using this world's rules to apply to a place we don't even know exists.
    This is not an intractable problem. These are real-world questions that demand "objective" (not-opinion-based) real-world answers.
    I want what the Christians promise. OBJECTIVE MORALITY. Real-world, unambiguous, yes or no answers that are not context-sensitive.
    When god says, "kill the child who curses their parent", THEN KILL THEM.
    When god says, "one who marries a divorcee commiteth adultery" and "kill adulterers", THEN KILL THEM.
    These are unambiguous statements. We know how the ancient Israelites interpreted these laws. This is not up-for-debate.

    SOURCE CONVO
  • Deb-8-a-bull
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    It seem that mere ( man made laws )  have curved the way God is interpreted. 

    God use to have Christians going from door to door killing other types of Christians. 
    The same god, but these days, he must not ask this. 


  • 3RU7AL
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    --> @Deb-8-a-bull
    Exodus 32:27

    And he said unto them, Thus saith the Lord God of Israel, Put every man his sword by his side, and go in and out from gate to gate throughout the camp, and slay every man his brother, and every man his companion, and every man his neighbour.
  • Stephen
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    --> @3RU7AL
    Exodus 32:27

    And he said unto them, Thus saith the Lord God of Israel, Put every man his sword by his side, and go in and out from gate to gate throughout the camp, and slay every man his brother, and every man his companion, and every man his neighbour.

    Yes this was because they didn't like the god of Israel.  They were afraid of him, and  with good reason, if you ask me, he was a vicious jealous bastard narcissistic psychopath.

    No, these guys wanted to go back to Egypt and continue to worship the Egyptian pantheon of Gods. They were sick of Moses laying down the fkn law and starving them in the desert. You will notice, it was a bull that they made of gold representing the Apis the divine bull of the Egyptians a manifestation of the god Ptah.

    2 And Aaron said unto them, Break off the golden earrings, which are in the ears of your wives, of your sons, and of your daughters, and bring them unto me.
    3 And all the people brake off the golden earrings which were in their ears, and brought them unto Aaron.
    4 And he received them at their hand, and fashioned it with a graving tool, after he had made it a molten calf: and they said, These be thy gods, O Israel, which brought thee up out of the land of Egypt.
    5 And when Aaron saw it, he built an altar before it; and Aaron made proclamation, and said, To morrow is a feast to the Lord.
    6 And they rose up early on the morrow, and offered burnt offerings, and brought peace offerings; and the people sat down to eat and to drink, and rose up to play.




  • 3RU7AL
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    --> @Stephen
    What practical, "objective" and universal, non-context-sensitive lesson can I glean from this STORY?

    It sounds a lot like, SHOOT THE PROTESTERS.
  • Stephen
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    --> @3RU7AL
    It sounds a lot like, SHOOT THE PROTESTERS.


    Indeed.  Those who didn't conform to the new rules were cut down and slaughtered, but god loved them, doncha know.

    But notice; they didn't even know what the new rules /laws were until Moses had came down the fkn mountain. Yes, these poor fkrs were supposed to be psychic too. 


    What practical, "objective" and universal, non-context-sensitive lesson can I glean from this STORY?

     That the god of Israel, by his own admission, is a jealous, vengeful god of war that will not tolerate any disobedience or lip, under any circumstances.

  • 3RU7AL
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    --> @Stephen
    What practical, "objective" and universal, non-context-sensitive lesson can I glean from this STORY?
     That the god of Israel, by his own admission, is a jealous, vengeful god of war that will not tolerate any disobedience or lip, under any circumstances.
    Can't god do its own killing?  Why would Moses need to command people to kill their neighbors?

    Also, what practical, "objective" and universal, non-context-sensitive lesson can I glean from this STORY?

    Can we just throw out the entire "Old Testament" and even most of the "New Testament" and just write, "love your neighbor" on the back of a napkin?
  • Stephen
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    --> @3RU7AL
    What practical, "objective" and universal, non-context-sensitive lesson can I glean from this STORY?
     That the god of Israel, by his own admission, is a jealous, vengeful god of war that will not tolerate any disobedience or lip, under any circumstances.
    Can't god do its own killing?  Why would Moses need to command people to kill their neighbors?

    Well by all accounts he can and has done. But for some reason when it comes to full scale war he gets his minions to do the slaughter and get killed themselves on his behalf. A minion, doncha know is a follower or underling of a powerful person, especially a servile or unimportant one. Yes, these insignificant underlings were expendable, that is to say of relatively little significance, and therefore able to be abandoned or destroyed. But he loved them, doncha know.


    Also, what practical, "objective" and universal, non-context-sensitive lesson can I glean from this STORY?
    Already answered above. But here you are again: you can glean, that,  the god of Israel, by his own admission, is a jealous, vengeful god of war that will not tolerate any disobedience or lip, under any circumstances. The "objective" of the god of the OT in question was slavery and servitude. Nothing more nothing less.


    Can we just throw out the entire "Old Testament" and even most of the "New Testament" and just write, "love your neighbor" on the back of a napkin?


    Many have  and probably millions have discarded the OT and simply don't believe the NT so have discarded that too.. The thing is with the bible is that it is nothing more than a jumbled up book of ancient history. The Old Testament - after the creation story, is  simply book of war, violence, carnage, laws and dictates. The New Testament's over - all message appears, on the surface to be about loving your neighbor and turning the other cheek, give away your possessions etc, yet there are clear verses in these scripture that indicate quite the opposite. The underlying story is about, and to do with politics and whose turn in was to reign, rightfully,  over the Jews and become king of the Jews and Jerusalem .<<<<,  Notice King of the Jews NOT Christians.

     and just write, "love your neighbor" on the back of a napkin?

    We could, but does it have to be written at all, on anything , anywhere?  Christians seem to believe that they have the  monopoly on morals, orderly conduct and all round good and sinless behavior and for some reason they believe that anyone who doesn't believe in god, Jesus or the bible simply cannot posses morals and are incapable of conducting themselves in a  orderly and sinless peaceful manner.  Yes, 3RU7AL some Christians can be very high and mighty bastards when it comes to who has the moral high ground. 

  • 3RU7AL
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    --> @Stephen
    The New Testament's over - all message appears, on the surface to be about loving your neighbor and turning the other cheek, give away your possessions etc, yet there are clear verses in these scripture that indicate quite the opposite.
    Well stated.
  • ethang5
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    I always wonder why these circle-jerks by atheists end so quickly. You would think they would be able to, and want to, riff at God for much longer.

    I guess, once they shoot their load, they lose interest.

    I feel for their poor girlfriends.
  • 3RU7AL
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    --> @ethang5
    the bible is real and YHWH is the one true god, now what?

    Where's you LIST of "objective moral principles"?
  • EtrnlVw
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    --> @3RU7AL
    The New Testament's over - all message appears, on the surface to be about loving your neighbor and turning the other cheek, give away your possessions etc, yet there are clear verses in these scripture that indicate quite the opposite.
    Well stated.

    In line with the NT and Jesus' teaching you can love your enemy but that doesn't change the fact that the enemy still wants to kill you. So, rather than be terminated by an enemy whom you have not hated (and possibly have turned the other cheek) there must exist another resolve at some point. Basically you don't have to hate someone to protect the self and what is good.
    This is why you see that dynamic in scripture, commands to love and the awareness that there is a real enemy. In all honesty the negative forces would annihilate the positive side of life without hesitation. What love does, even though it doesn't always work is set the grounds for possible change and better outcomes. But, that doesn't change the reality you still have someone who hates you and that it may come to a head.
  • 3RU7AL
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    --> @EtrnlVw
    Basically you don't have to hate someone to protect the self and what is good.
    Sure, but any atheist-heathen-commie instinctively lashes out against perceived threats.  You don't need an old book to tell you that.

    The point is that "love thine enemy" is COUNTER-INSTINCTIVE and leads to inevitable and logical PACIFISM.

    Like GANDHI.  PACIFISM seemed to work out pretty well in the struggle to overthrow the Brits.

    Christians love to claim there are exceptions to "love thine enemy", but THEY AREN'T SCRIPTURAL.

    Jesus never says, "love thine enemy, I mean, unless they're trying to hurt you in some way, then beat the Schmidt out of them..."
  • ethang5
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    Love thine enemy doesn't mean pacifism.

  • 3RU7AL
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    --> @ethang5
    Love thine enemy doesn't mean pacifism.
    Please explain exactly where Jesus says, "love thine enemy, I mean, unless they're trying to hurt you in some way, then beat the Schmidt out of them..."

    What is your BIBLICAL exception to "love thine enemy"?

    Where does Jesus say "it's ok to kill people in self-defense"?
  • ethang5
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    --> @3RU7AL
    Please explain exactly where Jesus says, "love thine enemy, I mean, unless they're trying to hurt you in some way, then beat the Schmidt out of them..."
    I haven't a clue what you're babbling about here, but "Love thine enemy" does not mean "be a pacifist". Jesus Himself wasn't a pacifist.

    What is your BIBLICAL exception to "love thine enemy"?
    There are never exceptions to obedience to God.

    Jesus didn't make a "statement" for every little thing. Some things can be inferred.

    Jesus said we become the temple of God when we are born again, because the Holy Spirit comes to live within us. Thus we are to respect and protect God's temple and not allow anyone to defile it. 

    Jesus flogged the money changers in the temple and justified it by saying, "The zeal of thine house hath eaten me up."

    Jhn 2:16 - And said unto them that sold doves, Take these things hence; make not my Father's house an house of merchandise.

    Jhn 2:17 - And his disciples remembered that it was written, The zeal of thine house hath eaten me up.

    We become His father's house at salvation, and we are to treat it with the same zeal.

    Where does Jesus say "it's ok to kill people in self-defense"?
    I don't know. Where did Jesus say it's OK to pay taxes? The bible is for mature  adults, it is not paint-by-the-numbers juvenile guide book.

    That is why the bible has stories that allow the Christian to have a deeper understanding of the morality of God than just a list of do's and don'ts

    We learn this morality by observing the relationship between God and his people.
  • 3RU7AL
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    --> @ethang5
    make not my Father's house an house of merchandise.
    In other words, don't sell stuff at church.
  • 3RU7AL
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    --> @ethang5
    We become His father's house at salvation, and we are to treat it with the same zeal.
    This seems like quite a leap in logic.  Now you're a church?

    When did Jesus tell anyone to defend the churches with their lives?

    No, he said "turn the other cheek" and "love thine enemy".

    You can be a church, but you must be a PACIFIST church.

    According to your own "moral principle" of "love".
  • ludofl3x
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    --> @ethang5
    Where did Jesus say it's OK to pay taxes?
    <br>
    Didn't he say "render unto Caesar what is Caesar's"? Was this a real question?

    Edit: yeah, Matthew 22:21. 
  • 3RU7AL
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    --> @ethang5
    I don't know. Where did Jesus say it's OK to pay taxes?
    Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's.

    This is actually pretty specific.
  • 3RU7AL
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    --> @ethang5
    The bible is for mature  adults, it is not paint-by-the-numbers juvenile guide book.

    That is why the bible has stories that allow the Christian to have a deeper understanding of the morality of God than just a list of do's and don'ts

    We learn this morality by observing the relationship between God and his people.
    In other words, OPEN TO VERY BROAD PERSONAL INTERPRETATION.

    You CAN'T claim to "know the author's original intent" without simultaneously claiming to "know the mind of god" which, contradicts what is very specifically mentioned in the BIBLE, a man cannot know the mind of god.
  • Deb-8-a-bull
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    --> @ethang5
    You keep going from God to Jesus then back to God.  ( just to let you know. )

    Hey Thang?
    I hear what you are saying the scriptures mean , it's just.
    Well
    Well i can't help but feel that ummmmm,
    if we had a more qualified,  a more betterer scripture translator. 
    ( Nothing against you Thang )  you are a pretty decent scripture translator. Top one billion for sure.
    But  some what of a scholar of sorts.
    If we had a Gun ( that means awesome. 
    If we had like  A AWESOME BIBLICAL SCHOLAR translator type dude, we can simply ask what does this Scripture mean ? 
    And what does this mean? 
    And THE MAGICAL BIBLICAL SCHOLAR can be like ,  well this means eat ya vegetables.
    And this means that
    END OF STORY FULL STOP

    Maybe would should all chip in some cash and buy one of them BIBLICAL SCHOLAR. 
    We will Have him tgen sit on the site for one hour each day to answer our and Stephens queries. 

    What do ya reckon thang ? 
    Good game.


  • ethang5
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    -->@3RU7AL

    This seems like quite a leap in logic.  Now you're a church?
    A temple is where God lives. I could give you the verses, but I doubt that would help. I tell you how the bible answers your question, I don't really care if you believe it or not.

    You can be a church, but you must be a PACIFIST church.
    Lucky for me, it is Jesus who decides that, not you. Jesus fashioned a scourge and whipped people, overturning stalls and dumping money. That was not pacifist.

    According to your own "moral principle" of "love".
    You do not understand the Christian principle and think it means pacifism. You are incorrect. Your understanding is infantile.

    This is actually pretty specific.
    Actually it is not. Jesus was not talking about taxes at all.

    In other words, OPEN TO VERY BROAD PERSONAL INTERPRETATION.
    This is true in every open and Democratic society. So what? You want to legislate peoples thoughts? Everything is open to broad personal interpretation. So what?

    ...a man cannot know the mind of god.
    True, unless God reveals what's on His mind. If the author wants to reveal his original intent, he can do so.

    -->@deb

     keep going from God to Jesus then back to God.
    Jesus is God.

    If we had like  A AWESOME BIBLICAL SCHOLAR translator type dude, we can simply ask what does this Scripture mean? 
    Or you could simply read it with your brain on, like millions of others have done with no problem.

    Maybe would should all chip in some cash and buy one of them BIBLICAL SCHOLAR.
    He would still have to be a member of Dart, and you know how crazy you get about groups.

    What do ya reckon thang ?
    I rekon you're far too unstable to be trying to buy people. Not to mention broke.

    You could save some money by just reading it with your brain on.

    I have no evidence of this, but yours is working right?
  • 3RU7AL
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    --> @ethang5
    make not my Father's house an house of merchandise.
    If you are the house of god, this means you can't sell stuff.
  • zedvictor4
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    --> @ethang5
    So Jesus wasn't just gay.

    He was also Mr Whiplash and into sadomasochism.

    I'll apologise for my infantilism now.