Berniebros get mad. Don't know if there is a lot on this site in the first place

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  • TheRealNihilist
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    Watch this before watching the next. You would be surprised that Bernie isn't actually as consistent as lefties say he is:


    Then this one:


    This is from a guy who is a protectionist that was against immigration and now for it?  
    Bernie is just like any candidate. When a position becomes untenable because of the Overton Window they decide to change. Politics is game of how can you win. Sure people can have personal beliefs but they are not going to say it if it does not benefit them. 

    Lefties as in socialists, commies or anarchists.

    Liberals who make the majority of the left are the reason why Bernie is pretty much doing worse than Biden in any poll. 




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    So...
  • HistoryBuff
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    This is from a guy who is a protectionist that was against immigration and now for it?  
    I believe you are misinterpreting what he is saying in the 1st video.

    the 1st video he is specifically talking about the guest worker program where large corporations import workers rather than trying to hire americans. Then they send them back when they are done with them. These people usually don't become americans. And since they aren't intended to be there long term these companies never have to pay them any more, they just replace them with new "guest workers". That program is designed to keep wages down by maintaining a supply of cheap labor and not have to give those laborers any rights. It is a really shitty program both for americans and the "guest workers". if you can't find workers in america to fill a job, then by all means bring people in. But they should become a citizen, not a disposable commodity. 

    The 2nd video is about undocumented immigrants already living in america or trying to move to america. Many of these people already live in america.

    One video is about massive corporations using people to suppress wages then getting rid of them. The other is about bringing new people into the american workforce. They are very different things. 

    Bernie is just like any candidate. When a position becomes untenable because of the Overton Window they decide to change. Politics is game of how can you win. Sure people can have personal beliefs but they are not going to say it if it does not benefit them. 
    I disagree that there is any real change in his position between those 2 videos. But even if he has moved on 1 issue. He is overwhelmingly consistent. People like Pete butigeg changes his positions constantly. 

    Liberals who make the majority of the left are the reason why Bernie is pretty much doing worse than Biden in any poll. 
    lol you attack me when I throw out things without evidence, but then you do the exact same thing. Sanders has considerable support among people under 45 and a large lead in support among people under 35.

    One of the main reasons that Bernie isn't doing as well in the polls is that polling companies intentionally weight their polls to those they consider most likely to vote, that is to say old people,because statistically they show up to vote more. And in an election where no one actually appeals to young people that is a perfectly valid polling strategy. in most elections no one really does anything to appeal to young people. In an election where there are candidates that young people are actually excited about, it is a less valid polling strategy. 

    Voter turnout among 18-29 year olds was up 16 points in 2018. Turnout among 30-44 year olds was up 13 points. Those are the categories where Sanders does extremely well. If that trend continues Sanders will do much better than the polls suggest. 

  • TheRealNihilist
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    the 1st video he is specifically talking about the guest worker program where large corporations import workers rather than trying to hire americans.
    So are they immigrants who decrease the wages of American workers?
    He talks like a populist should that is why he is so like Trump.
    The 2nd video is about undocumented immigrants already living in america or trying to move to america. Many of these people already live in america.
    What makes them different to the guest worker program immigrants?

    I am not going to waste my time with the other arguments you make until you bother to answer these arguments. Please make it short. 
  • HistoryBuff
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    So are they immigrants who decrease the wages of American workers?
    No, they are not immigrants. immigrant implies they will stay. Guest workers are a commodity being traded by massive corporations. They import them, use them up, then discard them. Using people in this way is immoral as well as terrible for the american people. It is great for the millionaires and billionaires who own multi-national corporations though. 

    He talks like a populist should that is why he is so like Trump.
    Being a populist just means you try to appeal to the people. That is what literally all politicians are supposed to be doing. The fact that the vast majority of them don't do that is the problem. If the democratic party hadn't stopped trying to appeal to actual people and focused on appealing to the upper class we wouldn't be in this mess. 

    What makes them different to the guest worker program immigrants?
    Guest workers get discarded before they can get raises, benefits, citizenship etc. When they are done with them they just get rid of them and import a new one they can under pay. An immigrant moves to america and gets permanent residency or citizenship. If you employ an immigrant then they will have the expectation of a raise, benefits etc at some point. Guest workers don't get that because the whole point is to suppress wages.
  • TheRealNihilist
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    No, they are not immigrants. immigrant implies they will stay.
    Bernie said this in the video:
    "and that gets us to the immigration issue if poverty is increasing and if wages are going down. I don't know why we need millions of people to be coming into this country as guest workers who will work for lower wages than American workers and drive wages down even lower than they are right now"

    Do you see how this can apply to immigration as well? 
    Being a populist just means you try to appeal to the people.
    Populism refers to a range of political stances that emphasize the idea of "the people" and often juxtapose this group against "the elite".
    The people you are referring to creating a dynamic called us vs them? Seems to me like instead of hating immigrants you hate the "elite" instead. Seems to me like Republicans already dislike the "elite". What separates Bernie and Trump specifically regarding populism? 
    Guest workers get discarded before they can get raises, benefits, citizenship etc. 
    Source.

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    Do you see how this can apply to immigration as well? 
    Theoretically it could, but he is specifically talking about the guest worker program. Attempting to use this as evidence that he is against immigration is at best weak and at worst dishonest. He did not say he is against immigration in that clip.

    What separates Bernie and Trump specifically regarding populism? 
    Bernie has specific plans for how he will actually help people. He will get them healthcare, bolster unions, fight climate change etc. Trump gets them riled up about the 'libs', immigrants etc. Trump pretends he is for the people when his actions primarily benefit himself and the rich. Sanders actually is for the people and has shown that in his decades of championing causes for the people. 

    Guest workers get discarded before they can get raises, benefits, citizenship etc. 
    Source.
    Here is some quotes:
    -  Guest workers in these programs are easily exploited—they are typically paid below market wages and have little bargaining power. Additionally, employers control guest workers’ visas, which means most guest workers are unlikely to speak up about poor working conditions or cooperate with authorities after a complaint has been filed.

    - Employers have the option of sponsoring H-1B workers for permanent status, but few do. Just over 60,000 H-1B workers had their applications for permanent status certified in FY 2016 and for various reasons, not all of these certified petitions will lead to permanent status.[47] Considering 275,317 H-1B visas were issued and renewed in FY 2015[48] and the size of the H-1B workforce is projected to be nearly 900,000, few employers are transitioning guest workers to permanent status. If a skilled worker is exceptionally talented, a company should be motivated to keep the worker permanently. Instead, the lack of sponsorships is further evidence that guest workers are used as cheap, temporary labor.

  • TheRealNihilist
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    He did not say he is against immigration in that clip.
    Sure but can that very same argument be used against immigration entirely? 
    Bernie has specific plans for how he will actually help people.
    How about the unlikelihood of him winning, support in senate and congress?
    This link is from a pro-union source. Do you have a non-union source? I'll still speak about the links. Pro union "The Department for Professional Employees, AFL-CIO (DPE) was formed in 1977 to be the voice for working professionals in America’s unions."
    - Employers have the option of sponsoring H-1B workers for permanent status, but few do. Just over 60,000 H-1B workers had their applications for permanent status certified in FY 2016 and for various reasons, not all of these certified petitions will lead to permanent status.[47] Considering 275,317 H-1B visas were issued and renewed in FY 2015[48] and the size of the H-1B workforce is projected to be nearly 900,000, few employers are transitioning guest workers to permanent status. If a skilled worker is exceptionally talented, a company should be motivated to keep the worker permanently. Instead, the lack of sponsorships is further evidence that guest workers are used as cheap, temporary labor.
    So the claim here is that few H-1B workers are remaining permanent?
    From the numbers using this link we find out that 21.79% of them are being employed permanently. What should the number be or should this program never exist? This can be when you talk about corporations again so I'll actually rebut the claim brought forward. 

  • HistoryBuff
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    Sure but can that very same argument be used against immigration entirely? 
    Some people do. He isn't doing that in the clip you provided. You are trying to paint him as inconsistent on immigration and then showing him making an argument about a specific exploitative program. You have not shown him give any argument on immigration in general other than the one that is his current position. If you feel it has changed then the burden of proof is on you to show that it has changed. 

    How about the unlikelihood of him winning, support in senate and congress?
    People made the same arguments about trump. How the establishment would just obstruct him. But the republicans all bent the knee once he took over.

    Most of the establishment dems primary concern is their own well being and career. If Bernie wins it will be because his ideas are what americans want. The threat of having Bernie sanders push for you to be primaried will terrify dems just as much as Trump's tweets scare republicans. They will do what the american people elected Bernie sanders to do or they will get primaried and removed by someone who will. If establishment dems choose to obstruct what the american people want, it will not end well for them. 

    From the numbers using this link we find out that 21.79% of them are being employed permanently.
    Umm, 60,000 in a population of 900,000 is 6.6%, not 21%.

    What should the number be or should this program never exist?
    We have now strayed away from the point you made this thread to talk about. You wanted to argue that Sanders is inconsistent on immigration. You have failed to do that. You have shown that he criticizes 1 specific program related to immigration that he feels is flawed and abused. That hasn't changed. You have shown no inconsistencies thus far. 
  • TheRealNihilist
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    Some people do. 
    I didn't ask if people do. I was implying would the argument be also correct in respect to immigration?
    You are trying to paint him as inconsistent on immigration and then showing him making an argument about a specific exploitative program.
    Nope my statement was that Bernie is against immigration in that video yet is pro immigration now. This can clearly been seen. Worker programs even though only 6.6% have been permanent residents are still immigrants. He didn't say he wants to improve it, he said he wants to remove it without an alternative.

    Taxation is exploitative. A job is exploitative. Having an outrage over a specific program is a red herring because almost everyone is exploited for their labor.
    You have not shown him give any argument on immigration in general other than the one that is his current position. If you feel it has changed then the burden of proof is on you to show that it has changed. 
    If I am Nick Fuentes and say we need to protect our western values and people decide to take that as we should be against immigration, don't you think I am to blame for what the people who follow me believe? 
    People made the same arguments about trump. How the establishment would just obstruct him. But the republicans all bent the knee once he took over.
    Why would the Democrats do the same again and how to do you propose Bernie wins the swing states?
    Umm, 60,000 in a population of 900,000 is 6.6%, not 21%. 
    Yeah it is that sorry.
    You wanted to argue that Sanders is inconsistent on immigration. You have failed to do that.
    My argument:
    This:
    "and that gets us to the immigration issue if poverty is increasing and if wages are going down. I don't know why we need millions of people to be coming into this country as guest workers who will work for lower wages than American workers and drive wages down even lower than they are right now"

    is different to this:

    "I believe we should move towards a path to citizenship" 2nd video 1:02

    First point is that we shouldn't have immigrants because they lower the wages of American workers. This is heavily implied given this very same can be used against immigration. 

    Second point is that we should make immigrants citizens. Meaning he doesn't care about lowering the wages of American workers. This is also heavily implied because given the time it would take him to do this he is willing to lower the wages of American workers during that time and that is if he is able to pass the law not fail and continue to lower American wages. 



  • TheRealNihilist
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    My argument = 1st video argument
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    I didn't ask if people do. I was implying would the argument be also correct in respect to immigration?
    The argument would have some validity, but is over simplified. There are many other aspects to it. Blaming immigration is mostly a scapegoat. 

    Nope my statement was that Bernie is against immigration in that video yet is pro immigration now. This can clearly been seen. 
    What video did you watch? He is talking about being against 1 specific program related to immigration that is being abused by massive corporations. He never says he is against immigration. 

    Worker programs even though only 6.6% have been permanent residents are still immigrants.
    If most of them are being forced back to their home country then they weren't immigrants. They were temps being used in lieu of paying workers more. 

    He didn't say he wants to improve it, he said he wants to remove it without an alternative.
    He said he wants to remove it. He also has plans for immigration reform. That clip was just him discussing a bill he opposed. No one asked him about what his plan was. Just because a short clip doesn't show him talking about his alternative does not mean he doesn't have one. 


    Taxation is exploitative. A job is exploitative.
    Taxation is not exploitative. You are getting services for what you are paying. You get schools, roads, firefighters. The tax codes are decided by the elected representatives of the people. 

    Having an outrage over a specific program is a red herring because almost everyone is exploited for their labor.
    This doesn't even make sense. We can't be upset by abusive, awful programs because there are other bad things in the world? With this mindset no one should ever try to fix anything. Sanders has a wide array of plans for fixing a wide array of problems. This is one of them. There are many others. 

    If I am Nick Fuentes and say we need to protect our western values and people decide to take that as we should be against immigration, don't you think I am to blame for what the people who follow me believe? 
    I'm not familiar with him. A quick google search tells me he openly advocates hate and fear of immigrants. That is not even remotely similar to saying a specific program is deeply flawed. Some people may take Bernie's statements to mean something he didn't intend. As long as he isn't trying to leave his statements vague so they can be misinterpreted I don't see that as his fault. Nick appears to be active preaching hate and intolerance. They are not remotely similar.

    Why would the Democrats do the same again and how to do you propose Bernie wins the swing states?
    Bernie would win the swing states for the same reason centrists think he won't. He is a populist.

    You don't win swing states by advocating for failed neo-liberal policies that have ruined lives. That is a great plan to keep people home on election day and let trump win. You win them by promising you have a vision to fix their problems and getting people out to vote. Sanders is the best positioned to do that.

    First point is that we shouldn't have immigrants because they lower the wages of American workers. This is heavily implied given this very same can be used against immigration. 
    You are incorrect. The entire conversation they were having was about the "guest workers" program. You are trying to take 1 sentence fragment from that conversation to paint it as if that is his opinion about immigration, when he was talking about 1 specific program. You choose to believe that this shows his opinion on immigration, when that is not what he said.

    I don't know precisely what his opinions on immigration were 15 years ago. maybe you are right and he was against it. But I do know that taking one sentence out of a conversation he had about a specific program and applying it to mean his opinion of the broader question of immigration is an extremely weak argument. 

    Second point is that we should make immigrants citizens. Meaning he doesn't care about lowering the wages of American workers.
    lol his entire platform is about helping american workers. You would be extremely hard pressed to find any politician who cares more about the wages of american workers. 

    The idea that immigration is the reason wages are low is a distraction. It almost certainly has an impact, but pointing to it is meant to deflect criticism away from the people that actually control wages. Why blame the billionaires and oligarchs who control wages when you can blame a poor immigrant with little money or power? It is part of the game that the billionaire oligarchs play. 

    he is willing to lower the wages of American workers during that time and that is if he is able to pass the law not fail and continue to lower American wages. 
    He has a numerous plans for how to improve wages for american workers. Just because he knows that immigration is not the main problem does not mean he is somehow ok with lowering wages. 
  • HistoryBuff
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    My argument = 1st video argument
    This is like showing a clip of someone saying they don't like the new call of duty game and one saying they like video games and saying they are inconsistent. You can dislike a specific game and still like gaming. You can disagree with 1 specific policy and not be against immigration. 


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    lol so? He is trying to fix america. In so doing people became very interested in what he had to say. So they went out and bought books he wrote. So now he is a millionaire and his positions have not changed at all from when he wasn't a millionaire. 

    This shows how his opinions are consistent. He had views before he had over 1 million, he has the same views after he had a million dollars. Sounds like a great endorsement of his consistency as a candidate. 

    that is one really lazy centrist smear job. 


  • TheRealNihilist
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    No that = means it was supposed to be this.

    I make an eroor like that and use

    eroor = error. 
  • TheRealNihilist
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    Do you have an opinion on that source? 

  • Greyparrot
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    Somewhere in George Soros's basement is 1 million unopened Berniebooks.
  • Greyparrot
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    On the CNBC clip? I find it strange that Bernie all of a sudden enjoys having alot of money.
  • TheRealNihilist
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    that is one really lazy centrist smear job. 
    Like how socialists who just can't help themselves critique this very amazing take: 

  • HistoryBuff
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    No that = means it was supposed to be this.

    I make an eroor like that and use

    eroor = error. 
    I'm not really sure what you are trying to say. I think you are saying that your argument is the 1st video.

    But the 1st video is only kind of related to the 2nd video. In the 1st video he explains why a specific policy for importing temp workers, then deporting them is bad. In the 2nd video he explains why he supports immigration reform. Those 2 things are not contradictory. In the same way you can criticize things Israel does, but not want to see it destroyed. Or you can dislike a game, but not hate the genre of game it is in. You can hate Jar Jar Binks, but still love star wars. 

    Criticizing 1 part of an issue, does not mean you are against the entire thing. Trying to argue that the 1st video describes his opinion of immigration is disingenuous. We both know he was talking about the guest worker program and not immigration as a whole. If you want to make the argument he used to be against immigration, then provide a source where he is actually talking about immigration. 
  • HistoryBuff
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    Like how socialists who just can't help themselves critique this very amazing take: 
    Lol he is advocating a nanny state. Basically he is saying that the state needs to tax poor people because they are too stupid to take care of themselves. Do you actually think that is a good take? Bloomberg is the exact parody of a "liberal" that republicans point to.

    He is the "perfect" mix of restricting people's freedoms because he thinks he knows better than them, while simultaneously doing nothing to actually improve their lives, like say providing health care or education.
  • TheRealNihilist
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    Bernie is just mad that last election Hillary showed him he can't milk people like she does.



    It is funny that he wants free college but is perfectly fine with taking money from Universities. University of California is one such Uni and guess who else Amazon, the very same company he and AOC screwed over while also screwing over the people who could've found jobs in the new facility. 

    Even now he is perfectly fine taking Amazon's money and a Universities.



  • TheRealNihilist
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    I think you are saying that your argument is the 1st video.
    No I mean when I make an error I use the equal sign to mean this was what I supposed to say. Here is an erooor

    Now here is how I tell you what is was supposed to say:

    eroor = error


  • Greyparrot
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    The state already taxes the poor in almost ALL Democratically run cities with Lottery tickets. 

    Bloomberg suggests taxes make people aware of proper personal choices like a soda tax, but it doesn't seem to have any effect at all on the destructive gambling problem the poor has in his city. Most of the revenue from sin taxes like cigarette taxes still comes from the poor. Taxes don't seem to affect their behavior and bad choices much at all.