Brexit

Author: DynamicSquid ,

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  • DynamicSquid
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    Britain's most likely going to exit the EU after what has happened recently (Boris Johnson).

    I think this will be a terrible idea! However I haven't put much thought into it, so I could be wrong. You guys have a chance to change my mind this time.

    What do you guys think bout Brexit?
  • bmdrocks21
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    --> @DynamicSquid
    I haven't researched it much, either. I will not be able to endorse any Brexit deal or say that it will go well in practice. I simply believe that it has potential to be great move for Britain.

    But I have issues with international organizations like the EU. Essentially, why should a large group of people that you didn't elect get to make so many changes in your life? You had no consent over their election or appointment and they have very little accountability to you as a result.
  • HistoryBuff
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    --> @bmdrocks21
    Essentially, why should a large group of people that you didn't elect get to make so many changes in your life?
    who would that be exactly. They do elect MEPs. Those MEPs then choose the important positions. That is representative democracy. 

    You had no consent over their election or appointment and they have very little accountability to you as a result.
    they are selected by the elected MEPs. They do have accountability. 
  • Greyparrot
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    --> @DynamicSquid
    The EU is an unelected body governing the UK. If UK wants democracy, they cannot remain under the control of Brussels.

  • Greyparrot
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  • HistoryBuff
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    --> @Greyparrot
    The EU is an unelected body governing the UK. If UK wants democracy, they cannot remain under the control of Brussels.'
    I'm guessing you don't know very much about the EU. They are governed by elected officials. Every EU country elects MEPs. Those MEPs then select some executive. That is how representative democracy works. 
  • Greyparrot
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    --> @HistoryBuff
    Just like the American People elected Jim Comey. What an authoritative tool.

    You do realize 27 of the 28  of the total EU ministers were not selected by UK Parliament members, right? And you do realize there are appointees somewhere in the middle of a 5-year term long after the PM was voted out of office, right? It's a fucked up authoritative system totally unresponsive to the average UK citizen.

    But dem socialists luv dem some good ole authoratee yeehaw
  • HistoryBuff
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    --> @Greyparrot
    Just like the American People elected Jim Comey. What an authoritative tool.
    Umm, he was selected by the democratically elected government. That is not authoritarian in any way. Do you know what that word means?

    You do realize 27 of the 28  of the total EU ministers were not selected by UK Parliament members, right?
    The EU council members are selected by the elected government of the country they represent. Each country gets 1 seat. That's like saying the majority of senators aren't from Iowa, so Iowa should leave the US. It is just silly.

    And you do realize there are appointees somewhere in the middle of a 5-year term long after the PM was voted out of office, right?

    You will have to provide an example for me to know what you are talking about. 

    It's a fucked up authoritative system totally unresponsive to the average UK citizen.
    lol, the leadership are all elected officials or appointed by elected officials. The exact format is different than the US, but the idea is the exact same. It is not authoritarian in any way. And you're right, they have to balance the needs of lots of people in lots of countries. But the advantages of membership massively outweigh the small downsides. 

    But dem socialists luv dem some good ole authoratee yeehaw
    You know the US, as well as many other countries, have the same sort of process right? I mean the UK itself has an entirely unelected house of parliament. That is way less democratic than the EU. 
  • DynamicSquid
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    Ah, okay.

    So the topic of control is very important?
  • Dr.Franklin
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    it it good because EU is a massive fucking government, I am for small government
  • bmdrocks21
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    --> @HistoryBuff
    Well I like federalism, so that is mainly my issue. The fact is that, even if you elect officials, you will still be well outnumbered by other countries' officials. It took power away from British citizens to determine their destiny.
  • HistoryBuff
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    --> @bmdrocks21
    Well I like federalism, so that is mainly my issue. The fact is that, even if you elect officials, you will still be well outnumbered by other countries' officials.
    So you also don't like the US senate system? Because they are pretty much the same thing. Each state gets 2 senators. In the EU each state gets 1 council member. It is the same concept. 

    It took power away from British citizens to determine their destiny.
    this is the same for any government. The US government takes freedom away from each and every state. But we all know that the states are stronger and better off together than as 50 independent countries. Similarly, the EU members are stronger and more prosperous together than if they were divided. There is always going to be a trade off. But they get way more than they give up. 
  • ethang5
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    In America, every Senator is an American.
  • Lucy
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    A hilarious example of an issue's political significance overwhelming the entire country far beyond its actual importance. I can sympathize with voters who just wanted to get it over with; Corbyn was inept at dealing with Brexit. Boris Johnson is human refuse, but god Labour's strategy was so bad.
  • HistoryBuff
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    --> @Lucy
     but god Labour's strategy was so bad.
    Agreed. The problem was that Corbyn is a pro-brexit leader of a pro-remain party. He wanted brexit to happen, he just didn't want to get blamed for it. So he essentially didn't fight against it very hard but couldn't come out in favor of it either. As a result, anyone who was voting for brexit had no reason to vote labor. If you are pro-brexit you'd vote conservative. If you are anti-brexit you'd have to vote lib dem or something. 

    He totally screwed over the labor party, and by extension, the entire country. 
  • bmdrocks21
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    --> @HistoryBuff
    So you also don't like the US senate system? Because they are pretty much the same thing. Each state gets 2 senators. In the EU each state gets 1 council member. It is the same concept. 

    That's my point. I want the federal government to have very little power. I want most power to be at the state and local levels.

    this is the same for any government. The US government takes freedom away from each and every state. But we all know that the states are stronger and better off together than as 50 independent countries. Similarly, the EU members are stronger and more prosperous together than if they were divided. There is always going to be a trade off. But they get way more than they give up. 

    That depends. Some of the poorer countries benefit from the EU, while the richer ones don't. Like how the Euro worked. The countries with strong currencies adopted currencies with worse values and the countries with higher rates of inflation and unstable currencies were very happy about it.
  • HistoryBuff
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    --> @bmdrocks21
    That's my point. I want the federal government to have very little power. I want most power to be at the state and local levels.
    so a weak and ineffectual government that will allow life to be dominated by the rich and powerful leaving the poor little more than peasants. I'll stick with a government that represents the will of the people. 

    That depends. Some of the poorer countries benefit from the EU, while the richer ones don't. 
    they all benefit. 
  • Greyparrot
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    so a weak and ineffectual government that will allow life to be dominated by the rich..

    Sounds like the Federal government. :)
  • bmdrocks21
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    --> @Greyparrot
    +1
    Lmao. Nice
  • bmdrocks21
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    --> @HistoryBuff
    so a weak and ineffectual government that will allow life to be dominated by the rich and powerful leaving the poor little more than peasants. I'll stick with a government that represents the will of the people. 

    Lol, what you don't understand is that the will of the people is split. Has the government under Trump been representing your will? No. Did the Obama administration represent my will? No.

    Except for swing states, most states have fair majorities for one ideology. Their will is more likely to be represented by their state and local government. Most Californians are liberal. Most people in my state are not. I don't want their large state telling me how to live, but I'm fine with them living how they want to. Why are you anti-choice?

    they all benefit. 

    What does the EU do that couldn't be achieved by individual nations that wish to cooperate? Not much, really.
    However, it takes away a lot of power to dissent if you don't wish to follow their rules.



  • HistoryBuff
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    --> @bmdrocks21
    Lol, what you don't understand is that the will of the people is split. Has the government under Trump been representing your will? No. Did the Obama administration represent my will? No.
    Bu you get to vote for that government. If the people don't like it they can vote in a new one. If you got what you wanted and seriously weakened the government, it would be billionaires and multi-national corporations that would fill the power vacuum. And you would have no say at all in how they used that power. I will take a government I get a vote for over an oligarchy. 

    What does the EU do that couldn't be achieved by individual nations that wish to cooperate?
    Lol that is exactly what the EU is. Individual nations that wish to cooperate. 
  • bmdrocks21
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    --> @HistoryBuff
    Bu you get to vote for that government. If the people don't like it they can vote in a new one. If you got what you wanted and seriously weakened the government, it would be billionaires and multi-national corporations that would fill the power vacuum. And you would have no say at all in how they used that power. I will take a government I get a vote for over an oligarchy. 


    But why can't a Californian state government be as huge as they want and you can live there and be "protected from the oligarchy"?
    Conservatives don't want your huge spending programs and tax hikes. Why should you force your will on us? If you want the government taking care of you from cradle to grave, that is a perfectly fine position. I want to keep what I earn and make a living for myself with the government not limiting my freedom. I want guns to protect myself and actual freedom of speech. I don't want to subsidize your sanctuary cities.

    Lol that is exactly what the EU is. Individual nations that wish to cooperate. 

    And Britain is leaving because it isn't benefiting from the relationship. Sure, they had the choice to join, but now they are realizing that the EU is able to force them to take actions that adversely affect their country. The EU is a cop out, easy answer to problems that would better be solved by individual pieces of legislation negotiated between countries.
  • HistoryBuff
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    But why can't a Californian state government be as huge as they want and you can live there and be "protected from the oligarchy"?
    They could, but at that point they may as well be their own country. Once you break down the federal government and make it useless, you essentially destroy america. You no longer have 1 country, you have 50 countries. 

    Conservatives don't want your huge spending programs and tax hikes. Why should you force your will on us?
    If the majority of americans feel that way they are free to vote for that. However if they got their way and tore down the federal government, then no one would get to vote for anything any more. 

    If you want the government taking care of you from cradle to grave, that is a perfectly fine position.
    I'm glad you approve. The federal government exists to protect and provide services to it's people. 

     I want to keep what I earn and make a living for myself with the government not limiting my freedom. 
    You prefer to have unelected CEOs of multinational corporations limit your freedom. I know. As I said, that would be much, much worse. 

    And Britain is leaving because it isn't benefiting from the relationship.
    It is benefiting. However a prolonged propaganda campaign has convinced people otherwise.

    Sure, they had the choice to join, but now they are realizing that the EU is able to force them to take actions that adversely affect their country. 
    I have yet to really hear of any examples of this though. The ones that typically get pointed to are UK laws, not EU laws. For example right wing idiots like to say that the EU banned using news papers to hold fish and chips. But that was the UK that did that because newspapers are full of poison. They also claimed the EU tried to ban a specific kind of potato chip, which was just a lie. 

    The EU is a cop out, easy answer to problems that would better be solved by individual pieces of legislation negotiated between countries.
    The EU is exactly what you said would be a good thing, independent countries working together. It is a body that negotiates legislation between countries. You are describing the EU as something that would be better than the EU. it is kind of funny. 
  • bmdrocks21
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    --> @HistoryBuff
    They could, but at that point they may as well be their own country. Once you break down the federal government and make it useless, you essentially destroy america. You no longer have 1 country, you have 50 countries. 

    The Federal Government has the role of coining money, upholding interstate contracts, maintaining an army, and some other powers. It isn't pointless, it just has its own set of roles, while the states, who better know the needs of their people, should have a lot more control.

    If the majority of americans feel that way they are free to vote for that. However if they got their way and tore down the federal government, then no one would get to vote for anything any more. 

    The federal government has roles. It has just way overstepped its boundaries, and I think much of that power should be returned to the states.

    I'm glad you approve. The federal government exists to protect and provide services to it's people. 

    It exists to protect, but providing services should come with an asterisk. It can't just do anything, the states have a lot of responsibility, too. It is a perfectly fine position for you, but not perfectly fine for you to force on me.

    You prefer to have unelected CEOs of multinational corporations limit your freedom. I know. As I said, that would be much, much worse. 

    And the role of organized labor is to combat that. If you want to overregulate and overtax your companies, then so be it. We want job creation. We can earn our living and the government can step in if it needs to. I would just much rather a state government step in. Better than federal tax dollars going to GM bailouts that I don't want or need. I have a lot more control over state politicians to stop that than I do over federal politicians.

    It is benefiting. However a prolonged propaganda campaign has convinced people otherwise.

    You're open to change my mind. How were they benefiting?

    I have yet to really hear of any examples of this though. The ones that typically get pointed to are UK laws, not EU laws. For example right wing idiots like to say that the EU banned using news papers to hold fish and chips. But that was the UK that did that because newspapers are full of poison. They also claimed the EU tried to ban a specific kind of potato chip, which was just a lie. 

    Forcing countries to take refugees would be one. They see Sweden having a rape crisis and hand grenade attacks, and they don't want that. But the EU forces them to anyway. That is the main one that I think of.

    The EU is exactly what you said would be a good thing, independent countries working together. It is a body that negotiates legislation between countries. You are describing the EU as something that would be better than the EU. it is kind of funny. 

    Not quite. I am saying that how the UK and Greece trade between each other should be left up to the UK and Greece. Instead, you have legislation that applies to all countries regarding tariffs, quotas, etc. They have to balance everyone's interests simultaneously instead of individually, which makes policies less precise in terms of their country's needs.
  • DynamicSquid
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    Guys, after reading everything you have all said, I have come up with a new Con argument.

    After Britain leaves, won't all the other countries leave too?