Is god real?

Debates: 10

Posts: 3,159

12.31.2019 06:53AM

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@EtrnlVw

Ok I've thoroughly read through your response, and now I can respond to it.

This is why I like you soo much lol.

Thanks!

If I may interject, may I ask you what you consider Christianity? I would narrow it down to the Gospels themselves just curious what you think though, your thoughts on it minus all the dogma and interpretations.

It depends on what aspect of Christianity you're looking at. For some, it's a series of moral guidelines. For others, it's a way to explain the unknown. I consider it to be a religion, along with all of the other religions. There's nothing inherently wrong with it.

Here's a good way to look at it. Unlike Mopac I'll be taking Jesus' position and not trying to justify religion or any organized religious institutions. If you have no problem with say...the Gospels or the teachings of Jesus consider what he taught from somebody that was an expertise in the arena of understanding God and all that it implies, a teacher in other words and from teachers is how we gain knowledge and insights.

I agree that Jesus and his disciples, along with the other gospels do teach some good moral lessons. But if you're saying that Jesus (or the others) have proven God's existence, then I would need to see evidence of it, and scrutinize it.

Erasing all the claims of religious institutions and everyone asserting they have some inerrant understanding of the Gospels, approaching them for yourself what is it that you gain from reading the Gospels? what do you think the message is? do you like it?

I haven't read the gospels in their entirety, but I can say that they give good moral teachings.

You see, the actual teachings and examples are there to connect you to that reality so the evidence is in the application of it. To wait for evidence that supports the Gospels is safe, but not smart. The evidence is in the teachings and the way Jesus exemplifies Himself, the teachings are to be applied and the principles observed that is how you come to the conclusion they are legit. If you wait for something that may never surface you may miss what's being taught, or you may overlook it because you are hesitating.

So how exactly do the gospels prove God's existence?

It's not that you need to become some Christian per say, especially some form of religious Christian like many proselytize rather it is another way of interacting with reality and what you think you know. The teachings of Jesus are there to help you understand the nature of spirituality vs the nature of the carnal mind and desires just like many other paths of spirituality.
They are there to help you transcend what you normally think and act on, what you normally experience. In this sense it's more an application and not a religion or set of beliefs. Religion is actually irrelevant, basically you replace Jesus with yourself when you read the Gospels....minus getting crucified lol.
Again, you have to treat the Gospels as if they are the source of evidence..... that's not circular reasoning because where you have application you also have observation. And where you have observation you have your evidence.

I don't disagree with the teachings. I'm just thinking about this thing from a neutral, critical perspective. I don't deny the possibility of God existing.

I think if you observe the teachings of Jesus you will also find sound reasoning therein, because therein is the wisdom of what it means to abide under the shadow of the Almighty. It would be like plugging directly into a power source but not through religion, not tradition and certainly not pressure from some silly so-called authority that you need to join or become a follower of. The only thing you would be obligated to do from a spiritual perspective is to apply things to yourself, to be flexible and teachable to truth outside of what you think you know. But that is how you learn and gain things and it's no different with spirituality you have to be willing to submit to another way of doing things.

I'll have to read into the teachings more, but thinking from a critical perspective, I don't see any evidence, yet.

More than likely you will never find any good reasoning or evidence for the God of the Bible, rather you will find good reasoning and evidence to accept God exists and then you will see that there is good reasoning behind what Jesus teaches, different approach with the same things in mind.

I haven't yet found good reasoning and evidence that God exists. That's why I'm here, to seek out the evidence for myself. But I can't jump to conclusions, and until I do find some good reasoning and evidence, I cannot say, with certainty, that God does exist.

#92

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12.31.2019 04:36PM

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@PressF4Respect

It depends on what aspect of Christianity you're looking at. For some, it's a series of moral guidelines. For others, it's a way to explain the unknown. I consider it to be a religion, along with all of the other religions. There's nothing inherently wrong with it.

Those are the answers you would expect not believing God exists of course, but I'm trying to get you to switch your perspective to considering God exists and then evaluating the information. That may sound strange and don't take it the wrong way but it's the only way it may make any sense to you. I'm not saying to accept it or embrace it, I'm just saying the information would be a lot more useful if you were to approach them as if God does indeed exist. I think it would be more valuable that way and easier to decide whether or not Jesus had anything reasonable to add to your quest for truth.

And....any spiritual texts could be approached this way not just the Gospels.

I actually don't read the Gospels for a moral guideline and to explain the unknown, I'm looking for information that can connect me to that reality. Information that correlates with the spiritual nature of our experience. Many times I use my own observations and encounters as a cross reference to other sources of information. And cross examination between an array of sources when dealing with the spiritual goes a long ways. Because of the very nature of spiritual knowledge and experience we have to evaluate the evidence that correlates with that nature, this would move us over to testimonial based evidence rather than physical based evidence per say.

I agree that Jesus and his disciples, along with the other gospels do teach some good moral lessons. But if you're saying that Jesus (or the others) have proven God's existence, then I would need to see evidence of it, and scrutinize it.

Not saying that at all, but again the information therein would be useless if you always assume God does not exist correct? If you switch your perspective temporarily you may find it makes more sense. Like if you were reading material from someone you believed was a madman, it would be hard for you to accept any of it and you may perceive it all to be a little nutty or even extreme. You could even still scrutinize it all you want, but make sure your worldview and perceptions about life don't get in the way of judging the material.

I haven't read the gospels in their entirety, but I can say that they give good moral teachings.

I say just read the Gospel of John through, since they are all similar. But morality is the least of the lessons I would think. Do you need anyone to tell you or instruct you about how to live a moral life? I doubt it, rather the information is to connect you with the spiritual nature of yourself. Spirituality can certainly expand your sense of morals but that is not the point behind the texts.

So how exactly do the gospels prove God's existence?

Application, observation. If you want transcendent experiences you have to plug into that source. Many times when you read spiritual texts you look for anything that is applicable to yourself, then judge for yourself how worthwhile it is.

I don't disagree with the teachings. I'm just thinking about this thing from a neutral, critical perspective. I don't deny the possibility of God existing.

Awesome that's all that matters my friend.

I'll have to read into the teachings more, but thinking from a critical perspective, I don't see any evidence, yet.

Thinking from a critical perspective is fine and also necessary, but once again don't let it get in the way. Do you understand what I mean by that? and like I said in my last post, it's very unlikely you will find good evidence to persuade you to accept the Gospels. It's more likely that you would come to accept God exists through time, evidence and good reasoning, and then you might see how the teachings make sense, or how they are useful. But a good place to start if haven't come to that conclusion is to be willing to apply things to yourself rather than simply waiting to find some decent evidence or whatever sort of evidence you are looking for.

I haven't yet found good reasoning and evidence that God exists. That's why I'm here, to seek out the evidence for myself. But I can't jump to conclusions, and until I do find some good reasoning and evidence, I cannot say, with certainty, that God does exist.

Well perhaps consider my posts throughout this forum and in other threads, where I give good reasoning to not only consider the existence of God but also challenge a materialistic ideology. I do this by reminding you that processes are associated with intelligence, and asking you if you are comfortable with accepting that inanimate forces can produce intelligent processes such as evolution and the creation of solar systems and planets, habitations and then intelligent/sentient creatures. I will remind you of the very nature of energy and how it operates within creation and what it produces.

Correlation is key to gaining any confidence that God may exist.

In all of what I said here I'm not claiming that you need to accept the Gospels in order to believe that God exists or in order to be a Theist. The teachings of Jesus are simply to connect you to something real but it's not like you have to have it. But, like any form of learning or practicing you want to learn from a good Master.

#93

Singularity

Debates: 11

Posts: 1,013

Singularity

12.31.2019 05:32PM

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@Alec

I don't know that any disproving of evolution even works. Not when it seems more likely that we would be seeded from aliens or be living in a simulated universe.

#94

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Posts: 2,869

12.31.2019 05:39PM

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@PressF4Respect

By the time I had begun reading the scriptures I was already a Theist, perhaps that's why when I read the teachings of Jesus not only did it make sense and resonate with me I thought Jesus was an extraordinary being. It was the passion behind what he was saying that drove me to want to learn and understand God more, it was his excitement that left me with more a perception that a Creator indeed exists (even though I was already convinced). That is the magic behind a good Master, like Bruce Lee for example....makes you want to get involved with what they are doing and saying, what they are practicing.

Perhaps if I had read them at some point when I was a non believer it may have not been worth much.

#95

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Posts: 2,869

12.31.2019 05:44PM

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@Stephen

That's extremely convenient for you then , eh.. But then it does leave the question of how do you know that a god or gods exist if "the nature of the Creator eludes our immediate physical sense perceptions"?

Because that is only a fraction of what you are and what you can experience. When you leave this physical body you will understand what I mean, however you don't have to wait on that.

And did those biblical characters have special "sense perceptions" that we today no longer posses?

You have everything you need, but if your own perceptions and perspectives are in the way your experiences will follow that.

#96

Mopac

Debates: 4

Posts: 8,050

Mopac

12.31.2019 08:23PM

If it isn't real, it isn't God, because being real is an integral identifier of God.

That being the caelse, to be in doubt about the existence of God is a tell tale sign of superstition.

#97

Debates: 10

Posts: 3,159

01.01.2020 05:10AM

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@EtrnlVw

From what I got from our dialogue (which has been quite enjoyable), I see that you were first a theist, and then you became a Christian. May I ask how you became a theist in the first place?

#98

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Posts: 4,959

01.01.2020 05:26AM

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@Mopac

The integral identifier of God is that it was created by man as is every God claimed to have ever existed.

#99

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Posts: 4,959

01.01.2020 05:29AM

@ET

When you leave this physical body

Is hilarious. You are your physical body, evolved on this planet over millions of years, there is nothing else except your fearful imagination. You are going to die, get over it.

#100

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