John the Baptist Part 2 - Doubt.

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  • Stephen
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    Of the many questions we have to ask ourselves is, if we are to take this story at face value and true then why did John the Baptist want Jesus to baptize him?
     
    In Christianity it is said baptism is an initiation of sorts into the Christian faith and family. Some say it also washes away our sins.  So then this raises two more problems and two more questions. (1) This was no Christian ceremony as both Jesus and John were Jews. So what was the reason for baptism of any one of these Jews. (2) What sins had John the Baptist committed to have his sins washed away?  Or what sins had Jesus committed to have his sins washed away?
     
    John the Baptist on the one hand tells us he didn’t know Jesus,but if this indeed be the case, then how did he recognize Jesus as “the one to come”.
     
    No one has disputed that john the Baptist had his own disciples before Jesus came on the scene which is just as well as the evidence is overwhelming.  And John continued to have disciples after his arrest, which raises one of the biggest questions of all concerning this whole bullshit story. John eventually baptized Jesus, he then, so the gospel  tells us that those present seen  “a spirit like a  dove from heaven”, not only does he tell us  what he seen, he also tells what he heard and somehow this confirmed everything for him.  
     
    So then, John is totally convinced that he got the right man but then this happens.

    John gets himself arrested by all accounts and so begins to wonder and have serious doubt if he had actually baptized and anointed the right person??!!!!  YOU JUST COULDN’T  MAKE IT UP!!!  
     
    YES!!!  The greatest prophet who had “ever lived” was now, even after seeing the spirit descend like a dove, and after hearing the voice of GOD HIMSELF!!!!   “saying,this is my son and I love him”  he sends some of his disciples to Jesus to ask:

    2 When John, who was in prison, heard about the deeds of the Messiah, he sent his disciples 3 to ask him, “Are you the one who is to come, or should we expect someone else?”. Matthew 11:1-3


     This ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ from the greatest prophet that ever lived.

    We have to look at this closely. John The baptist prophesies of Jesus coming , he then witnesses a spirit landing on Jesus like  “a dove” and also hears the voice of god,but  then has serious doubts about Jesus being “the one”?
     
     
     

  • ethang5
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    Is it me, or is the only thing here a person with too little bible knowledge and too much time ranting incoherently?

    Our genius thinks baptism is for remission of sins.
    And doesn't know why John wanted to be baptized.
    And doesn't know why John felt unworthy to baptize Jesus.
    And claims John doubted. But where does he get that?

    I feel another shaming coming on. It will be complete with ducking and dodging too.

    Pop em if you got em.
  • EtrnlVw
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    --> @Stephen
    Of the many questions we have to ask ourselves is

    Sure pal.

    why did John the Baptist want Jesus to baptize him?

    Out of respect and honor?

    What sins had John the Baptist committed to have his sins washed away?  Or what sins had Jesus committed to have his sins washed away?

    Out of respect and honor towards one another? you're trying too hard to scrape up things that just aren't there. It makes you look desperate. Why would they expect others to perform something they had not underwent themselves?
  • ethang5
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    --> @EtrnlVw
    Good question Etrnl. Plus, the answers to his question are all in the text. Again!

    I hope he has his obtuse glasses on.

  • EtrnlVw
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    --> @ethang5
    the answers to his question are all in the text. Again! I hope he has his obtuse glasses on.

    I wonder what glasses he's using when he reads this stuff lol. I wouldn't call it rose-colored..
  • EtrnlVw
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    --> @Stephen
     This ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ from the greatest prophet that ever lived.

    We have to look at this closely. John The baptist prophesies of Jesus coming , he then witnesses a spirit landing on Jesus like  “a dove” and also hears the voice of god,but  then has serious doubts about Jesus being “the one”?

    Is this supposed to actually mean something of significance? perhaps spell it out for us. What... does.. it.. mean? why do we need to "look at it closely"? 
    If your answer is that John doubted my reply is then who cares? what it is supposed to mean?

  • Stephen
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    --> @EtrnlVw
    why did John the Baptist want Jesus to baptize him?

    Out of respect and honor?

    But he didn't baptize him did he? So where was the fkn respect and honor you mention shown there?  There isn't any such reason and no such mention of "respect and honor". Indeed there is absolutely no mention of Jesus and john ever meeting again and not a single mention of Jesus ever baptizing anyone either.

    John is a respected leader of his own sect and in his own right and well before Jesus came one the scene . John was the leader of a massive movement of his own .john's following was large so much so that Herod feared him.

     Try reading what I have wrote and not what you want me to write and  stop making crap up.


    What sins had John the Baptist committed to have his sins washed away?  Or what sins had Jesus committed to have his sins washed away?

    Out of respect and honor towards one another? 

    One another??? See above sunshine,  only one of them was baptized. And giving the same answer to a different question shows your attention span to be nil.


    2 When John, who was in prison, heard about the deeds of the Messiah, he sent his disciples 3 to ask him, “Are you the one who is to come, or should we expect someone else?”. Matthew 11:1-3



     This ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ from the greatest prophet that ever lived.

    We have to look at this closely. John The baptist prophesies of Jesus coming , he then witnesses a spirit landing on Jesus like  “a dove” and also hears the voice of god,but  then has serious doubts about Jesus being “the one”?

    Is this supposed to actually mean something of significance?
     Yes, it means that the greatest prophet that ever lived had fkd up ... religiously.


    If your answer is that John doubted my reply is then who cares?

    I care.You seem to want to ignore that fact that a man, said by Jesus god himself to be the "greatest prophet to have ever existed" could doubt that he had got it so fkn wrong after hearing the voice of god himself and after witnessing the spirit dove descend through the opening skies. 

    I care because it shows the weakness of the whole fkn story. Jesus didn't shed a single tear on hearing of his blood relatives death, not a one.

     There was no weeping as he had done for his best buddy Lazarus. No mention of Jesus mourning no mention of Jesus attending his funeral or burial. No. what Jesus did next was perform another so called " miracle " in an attempt to cause all of John's followers to go over to him, which many did.

     
    And best of all , there is no  response from john when Jesus returned the message. 

    So far you have said nothing to convince me that these two blood relatives where not rivals. There is no respect or honor and no fkn love lost either.


















  • Stephen
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    --> @ethang5

    Our genius thinks baptism is for remission of sins.

    I hope he has his obtuse glasses on.
    Put your glasses on sunshine.  Try reading what I wrote and not what you want  me to have wrote. I always  have to embolden and underline everything for you don't I, Ethang5?  Just like a teacher  has to do  to emphasis something to a child that he persistently misses through lack of concentration and focus, or in your case deliberately.

    From post one above.
    "In Christianity it is said baptism is an initiation of sorts into the Christian faith and family. Some say it also washes away our sins".

    Acts seems to think so too;

    Acts 22:16 New International Version (NIV)
    16 And now what are you waiting for? Get up, be baptized and wash your sins away, calling on his name.’

    The Life Bridge Church happens to agree. https://thelifebridgechurch.com/baptism-wash-away-sins/


    Our genius thinks baptism is for remission of sins.

    I personally don't see how that by being pushed under-water that animals and such have pissed and shit in can somehow wash away anything at all never mind a persons "sins".


    So No Ethang5, this fkn "genius" doesn't think that being half drowned in pissy shitty water "is for remission of sins.".

    So why don't you explain what the ritualistic meaning and propose of baptism is to those that give a fk.




  • ethang5
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    --> @Stephen
    I always  have to embolden and underline  everything for you don't I, Ethang5?  
    You bold and underline because that is the style of trolls.


    Acts seems to think so too;

    16 And now what are you waiting for? Get up, be baptized and wash your sins away, calling on his name.’
    The verse says "And" wash away, not to wash away. Jesus had no sin. Acts disagrees with you.

    The Life Bridge Church happens to agree.
    So what? Whoever contradicts the bible is wrong. Baptism is needed, but is not what saves.

    I personally don't see how that by being pushed under-water that animals and such have pissed and shit in can somehow wash away anything at all never mind a persons "sins". 
    I'm the one telling you that baptism doesn't "save" anyone homer. You're the one who thinks "some say" says it does.

    Some say it also washes away our sins.  So then this raises two more problems...
    Why does what "some say" raise a problem? You claim you don't say it, and the bible certainly doesn't say it, yet you irrationally think it "raises" problems.

    So No Ethang5, this fkn "genius" doesn't think that being half drowned in pissy shitty water "is for remission of sins."
    Then why bring it up at all Jethro?

    So why don't you explain what the ritualistic meaning and propose of baptism is to those that give a fk.
    That wouldn't be you then.

    I'm just waiting to see where your disjointed rant ends. Perhaps Jesus had a plan to poison Jerusalem's water and kill everyone who got baptized?

    Lol
  • EtrnlVw
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    --> @Stephen
    But he didn't baptize him did he? So where was the fkn respect and honor you mention shown there?  There isn't any such reason and no such mention of "respect and honor"

    It matters not dum dum whether or not he was actually baptized, you asked WHY did John WANT to be baptized, and I answered the question. Here are the verses.
    "13Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him. 14But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me? 15And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him. 16And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him"

    My answer is out of respect and honor for the Messiah.

    if we are to take this story at face value and true then why did John the Baptist want Jesus to baptize him?

    If you don't want an answer don't ask a question.

    One another??? See above sunshine,  only one of them was baptized. And giving the same answer to a different question shows your attention span to be nil.

    Here were your own questions...

    (1) This was no Christian ceremony as both Jesus and John were Jews. So what was the reason for baptism of any one of these Jews. (2) What sins had John the Baptist committed to have his sins washed away?  Or what sins had Jesus committed to have his sins washed away?

    My answer is that John WANTED to be baptized out of respect and honor of Jesus, that's why he WANTED to be baptized...that is what you asked....how does that show your attention span to be Stevie?? do you even know what you ask others to answer?

    Since Jesus WAS baptized by Jesus, my answer is still "Why would they expect others to perform something they had not underwent themselves?" 
    It doesn't matter that John was not baptized, he wanted to be baptized, so my answers are the same.


    15And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.
     

  • EtrnlVw
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    Excuse me correction....Since Jesus WAS baptized by John....
  • Stephen
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    --> @ethang5
    I'm just waiting to see where your disjointed rant ends.

    Just clean out of answers and explanations and totally redundant aren't you.

    And you missed this.  

    So why don't you explain what the ritualistic meaning and propose of baptism is to those that give a fk.
  • ethang5
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    Just clean out of answers and explanations and totally redundant aren't you.
    You dodge every question of mine, why in the world would you think I give a flying fig about your questions?

    And you missed this.
    I missed nothing. You said, explain "..to those that give a fk". You dont give a fk.

    When you start answering questions instead of dodging and playing obtuse, people might stop thinking of you as an insignificant troll. I think you would like that, but why you don't do it is a mystery.
  • EtrnlVw
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    --> @Stephen
    You are among one of the worst people to communicate with, and we have some real winners here in this forum. 
  • Stephen
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    why did John the Baptist want Jesus to baptize him?

    Out of respect and honor?

    Then why   didn't Jesus return the " honour and respect" and show some respect and  honor  to John ; his flesh and blood the one he called "the greatest prophet that ever lived" with a baptism?  It would have only taken a matter of seconds. What made John think he was deserved of such "respect and honour" in the first place? Why did then - according to you and only you - did john believe Jesus deserved his respect and honour?
     And what is it that distinguishes Jesus'  baptism from all the other baptisms John had performed and continued to perform? 

    Jesus obviously didn't think so did he? This "respect and honor"  shite is something you have invented and are attempting to do Johns thinking for him.  Your excuse is bullshit and you know it. I just love it when you try to convince me with this shite, you open up far more questions than you can ever hope to  answer.


    My answer is that John WANTED to be baptized out of respect and honor of Jesus,that's why he WANTED to be baptized...that is what you asked....

    And did Jesus perform the baptism on John that John wanted ? NO, HE DIDN'T DID HE, the disrespectful fkr!



    It doesn't matter that John was not baptized
     It obviously mattered to John, that is why he asked Jesus to baptize him in the first place, wasn't it, that is of course, if we are to believe this ambiguous half told story.



    how does that show your attention span to be Stevie?? do you even know what you ask others to answer?
    It shows my attention span is clear, alert and functioning much much better than yours, sunshine. But I STILL cannot say the same for you. Read what you wrote below very slowly. I have emboldened and underlined for you the relative opening part for you, so you can't miss it.


    Since Jesus WAS baptized by Jesus, my answer is still "Why would they expect others to perform something they had not underwent themselves?" 
    It doesn't matter that John was not baptized, he wanted to be baptized, so my answers are the same.


    Jesus by all accounts was baptized by John the Baptizer - Jesus did not baptize himself now did he?  That what John didn't you know, he baptize people, thousands of them.  And there is absolutely no evidence that  Jesus didn't baptize anyone, and certainly not  himself.  

    You are among one of the worst people to communicate with

    Then why bother? I didn't drag you here sunshine.  And "communication" cuts both ways sunshine. You simply do not like these embarrassing questions that I keep highlighting that you cannot answer. I don't accept your explanations , simply because  they are not answers, they are just responses and replies and you really need to learn to distinguish between the two.

    Must try harder.






  • Stephen
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    --> @ethang5
    Just clean out of answers and explanations and totally redundant aren't you.
    Why in the world would you think I give a flying fig about your questions?

    Who said I did think that, princess?  I don't care at all what you don't  give about my questions. 

  • BrotherDThomas
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    --> @ethang5



    ethang5,




    YOUR BIBLE IGNORANT QUOTE POST #2: “Our genius thinks baptism is for remission of sins.”

    YOUR  BIBLE IGNORANT QUOTE AGAIN IN CONTEXT POST #9: 

    STEPHEN: "Some say it also washes away our sins.  So then this raises two more problems…

    ETHANG5: Why does what "some say" raise a problem? You claim you don't say it, and the bible certainly doesn't say it, yet you irrationally think it "raises" problems.


    ETHANG5, IT AMAZES DEBATEART IN THE FACT THAT YOU OUTRIGHT CALL JESUS’ INSPIRED WORDS AS LIES BECAUSE THE BIBLICAL AXIOMS SHOW WITHOUT A DOUBT THAT BAPTISM DOES FORGIVE SINS! THEREFORE, YOU ARE CALLING JESUS, JOHN, AND PETER AS LIARS WHICH IS BLASPHEME!


    “And now what are you waiting for? Get up, be baptized and wash your sins away, calling on his name.” (Acts 22:16)

    “Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. “(Acts 2:38)

    John appeared, baptizing in the wilderness and proclaiming a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins. And all the country of Judea and all Jerusalem were going out to him and were being baptized by him in the river Jordan, confessing their sins.” (Mark 1:4-5)


    And he went into all the region around the Jordan, proclaiming a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins.” (Luke 3:3)

    Now, to “try” and save face once again in front of the membership, how will you Satanically spin doctor the TRUE words of Jesus shown above that baptism does remove sins, where you say it doesn’t?


    Ethang5, Jesus and I are getting tired of your Devil Speak within this forum! The only way out for you once again, is to hide from this post, like you've done before ad infinitum when you have easily been proven wrong, or you can take Satan's position once again and try in vain to spin doctor your bible ignorance away!  Which is it going to be this time?


    I can see that I am going to have to hire another secretary to keep track of your bible ignorance, and then to address it in the name of Jesus once again, and at your embarrassing expense.

    .


  • BrotherDThomas
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    --> @Stephen


    .
    Stephen,

    As you can see, ethang5, et al, are who they pretend to be, and that is biblical scholars, whereas, as explicitly shown by you, me, and others, THEY ARE EMBARRASSINGLY NOT! They are useless chaff within this forum that were sent here by Satan to disupt TRUE Christian biblical axioms, and unfortunately every religion forum has to have this type of ilk. 

    The irony is that they should be thankful that we blatantly correct their assumed biblical knowledge in the manner that we do, therefore, they should be paying us hard cash for this service!


    .







  • ethang5
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    --> @Stephen
    Who said I did think that, princess?
    Your repeated posts asking me questions and then buttaching that I don't answer them.

    I don't care at all what you don't  give about my questions. 
    And yet you keep asking them and then running away from the answers. Strange no?

    When you start answering questions instead of dodging and playing obtuse, people might stop thinking of you as an insignificant troll. I think you would like that, but why you don't do it remains  mystery.
  • ethang5
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    --> @BrotherDThomas
    Hey Dee Dee, as you can see, the verses you offered said, "baptism of repentance".

    Do you know what that is?

    Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins,

    Is it the repenting or the baptising that washes away sin Dee Dee?

    The thief on the cross beside Jesus was never baptised, yet Jesus guaranteed Paradise for him. Judas was baptised, yet Jesus said he was lost.

    If you are going to play the role of Christian heretic you thought was so original, it helps to actually know the bible. Hmmm?

    While I have you Dee Dee, could you fix your silly posts with the long emptiness at the ends? It makes for needlessly long threads.

    I know you have time to fix it, as you obviously aren't using your time to study the bible.
  • Stephen
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    When John, who was in prison, he'd heard about the deeds of the Messiah, he sent his disciples  to ask him, “Are you the one who is to come, or should we expect someone else?”.Matthew 11:1-3


    So there it is. As clear crystal,


    John the Baptist, "the greatest prophet that ever lived"  and  in the light of all his groveling claims about `hearing the voice of god` , witnessing a `spirit from heaven descending like a dove`, of  `not being fit to lick Jesus' boots` and instantly recognizing Jesus as `the Lamb of god` and `the one to come`, now denying what it was he himself had witnessed and doubting all the things he had spouting to - himself apparently- after all the years meandering and wondering all ". alone in the wilderness".  Really!?

     And of all the doubt and denying above,   it should leap from the page here for Christians that John the Baptist is not only expressing doubt about Jesus; John, the greatest prophet and "more than a prophet"  is expressing unbelief concerning Jesus' identity as the  expected messiah that he had spent years in the wilderness promoting and "preparing the way" for. 
      John  is no more a witness here, is he? He is more of a questioning skeptic whose own expectations were not matching the events or the prophecy.

    There are many questions (a few listed below) that all Christians should be asking themselves concerning this saga and one of the those questions should be:
     what had caused  John the Baptist, the greatest prophet and "more than a prophet"  to doubt Jesus  in the first place.

    What had John been doing while in the custody of the Arab puppet King Herod Antipas of Galilee? What's more, what had he been telling Herod while in his custody?



     Why would John “need” to be baptised twice.
    Who baptised John in the first place
    What was the reason behind this particular baptism of Jesus?
    And why did Jesus come to Johnfor this anointing?
     What authority did John have to perform such a ritual? 
    Where, as was asked in the scripture, did John get such authority?
     What qualified John to perform this ritual?
    Why didn’t Jesus baptise John the Baptiser after John had said “I need to be baptized by you”? Matthew3:14
    Why did the Baptist say   “I NEED to be” Baptised by Jesus?
    Why was “the greatest prophet that ever lived” so mistaken and confused as to whom should be baptising whom?
     
    What caused John to believe that Jesus should be baptizing him in the first place?Matthew 3:13
    Why John had forbid Jesus to be baptized in the first place?
    Why did John ... the baptizer,eventually agree to baptize Jesus  after he had “forbade him” to be, -  that is to say John the Baptist refused to allow, Jesus to be baptized.  So whatever could have caused John to  change of mind? Matthew 3:14 King James Version (KJV)
     
    How did John the Baptist recognise Jesus as “the one to come after him”? John’s gospel at first says:

    John1 : 29 “The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith,Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world”.
     
    But he doesn’t tell us how he knew it to be him?
    John’s gospel later adds this: John 1 : 32   And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him.
    And at John 1 : 33  John, for some unfathomable reason tells usthat he didn’t even know Jesus. This; after pointing him out as the Lamb of God just three verses earlier at verse 29!?
     
    And then at 34 The Baptist spouts this:I have seen and I testify that this is God’s Chosen One. How did he know”?

    What caused John the Baptist to lose his faith and doubt concerning if or not Jesus was indeed the “Chosen one to come”? John was after all,  the “greatest prophet to have ever lived”.


    Matthew 11:1-3
    “Art thou he that should come,or do we look for another”?
     
    They may as well have started looking for another messiah as this particular “Chosen one” was to go on to fail in his mission whatever one chooses believe that mission was. Besides, there were plenty of Messiahs around in Palestine at the time and all vying for a piece of the action, the choice must have been overwhelming for the illiterate gullible masses.
     
    It also appears that "ALL"  believed or at least questioned if or not the baptist himself was the Messiah!!!


     Luke 3:15 King JamesVersion (KJV)
    15 And as the peoplewere in expectation, and all men mused in their hearts of John, whether he werethe Christ, or not





     

  • Stephen
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    --> @BrotherDThomas
    they should be paying us hard cash for this service!

    Common sense and a bit of honesty would be a good start. Instead of pig ignorance and continuous denial. As is being clearly shown to you in post 20 above.

  • ethang5
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    Lol.

    This is like watching a slow motion train wreck.

  • ethang5
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    --> @EtrnlVw
    ...do you even know what you ask others to answer?
    He don't care, since he isn't interested in the answers.

    The genius thinks he's hurting Christianity simply by posting and respamming his clunkers.
  • BrotherDThomas
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    --> @ethang5

    .
    ethang5,

    YOUR IGNORANT QUOTE AGAIN: "Hey Dee Dee, as you can see, the verses you offered said, "baptism of repentance"."

    YES! regarding the passages in my post #17, then when the pseudo-christian like you surrenders to our serial killer Jesus, as Yahweh God incarnate, you must be true to your sins and don't do them again! BUT, if you happen to sin again in the same manner, then you can use these passages because Jesus will save you again!

    For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.” (Romans 10:13)

    "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." (1 John 1:9)

    "For if you forgive others their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you, but if you do not forgive others their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses." (Matthew 6:14-15)

    “Judge not, and you will not be judged; condemn not, and you will not be condemned; forgive, and you will be forgiven. (Luke 6:37)

    “And now what are you waiting for? Get up, be baptized and wash your sins away, calling on his name.” (Acts 22:16)

    See how simple that was in Jesus saving the pseudo-christian's sin like you?  Yes? Maybe? Just a little bit?

    No repentance is needed with the aforementioned inspired by Jesus passages.


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    REMEMBER YOUR FAUX PAS QUOTE YOU MADE IN POST #2 REFERRING TO THE BROTHER D?: “Our genius thinks baptism is for remission of sins.” Barring the FACT that it is, you didn't have the notion of "repentance" in this quote, but had to now include it in your post #20 to try in vain to dig out of your embarrassing predicament, therefore your stand upon this issue is moot and once again embarrassing for you!  Didn't think we would notice such an error to your followup weak argument in your post in question?  Why do you make it so easy for me and Stephen? LOL!

    ++++++++++++++++++++++


    Next time save the semantics and hermeneutics for your equally ignorant cohorts of the Bible, okay? Your wasting my valuable time in always having to correct you as you continue to grasp for those proverbial straws that are just not there to begin with, understood? Thank you.


    I am traveling in my Salvation Bus towards Nevada to save even more courtesans in their ungodly Houses of Ill Repute. I do not have internet at times, but had to easily refute your Devil Speak on a friends computer before you thought you scored with Jesus, when as shown, you didn't once again, SORRY! :(

    .