What is your favorite argument for the existence of God?

Author: OntologicalSpider

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Stephen
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@BrotherDThomas
Brother. In reference to you post #172 and calling out the hypocrisy of many here and  in particular Tradesecret



"Within the scriptures, Jesus is a blatant serial killer as Yahweh God incarnate, He is greedy, jealous, selfish, self-centered, petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capricious, and malevolent. Also, our Jesus was an abortionist which leaves a lot of embarrassment if we picket Family Planning Clinics, do you get our hypocrisy if we do?"

All the above is correct.

And the reason for Jesus being  all the above  , as I have said many many times before, is that Christians have adopted a god from a time they neither knew or understood anything about and of who they knew nothing about and this is their burden. It leads them then to have to defend the indefensible and the only way they can do this is to use double standards, tell lies, rewrite the scriptures, deny biblical facts, and become hypocrites in the process and hope that no one  notices. 






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@RoderickSpode
Nope, it's feasible but unlikely.

In what image was a human like god created?.....And more importantly, how and from what? 

And what did said god create us from?....Are we therefore expected not just to accept an uncreated god, but also the uncreated raw materials of the universe? 

Basically, where did all the necessary stuff come from?.....it's a question that can easily be pushed to one side, but a question that will not go away, and a question that cannot be resolved.
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@Stephen
Brother. In reference to you post #172 and calling out the hypocrisy of many here and  in particular Tradesecret



"Within the scriptures, Jesus is a blatant serial killer as Yahweh God incarnate, He is greedy, jealous, selfish, self-centered, petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capricious, and malevolent. Also, our Jesus was an abortionist which leaves a lot of embarrassment if we picket Family Planning Clinics, do you get our hypocrisy if we do?"

All the above is correct.

And the reason for Jesus being  all the above  , as I have said many many times before, is that Christians have adopted a god from a time they neither knew or understood anything about and of who they knew nothing about and this is their burden. It leads them then to have to defend the indefensible and the only way they can do this is to use double standards, tell lies, rewrite the scriptures, deny biblical facts, and become hypocrites in the process and hope that no one  notices. 

Well that is a good reason. LOL! And again without a shred of evidence for such a blatant lie. 
Stephen
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@Tradesecret
Well that is a good reason. LOL! And again without a shred of evidence for such a blatant lie. 

Christians believe Jesus to be god. The one and only god that existed from the beginning. So unless you want to admit that there were, are and is, more than one god as per scripture , then Jesus is the god that the Brother describes perfectly.
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@Stephen
Christians believe Jesus to be god. The one and only god that existed from the beginning. So unless you want to admit that there were, are and is, more than one god as per scripture , then Jesus is the god that the Brother describes perfectly.
LOL! Yes, I do believe Jesus is GOD. And as such he has existed from eternity - that is what the bible teaches. No problems with that position. There is only one God, the Holy Trinity - Father, Son and Holy Spirit - 1 God - three persons. There is no other true God. The bible does talk about other gods - but not in the same league as God. There is only one creator. The other gods are essentially gods made in the image of man. Or gods that humanity are happy to live with - they don't do to much - but sit around like logs of wood - which are blind deaf and unable to talk. With no power etc. Of course Satan too is called the god of this age - he has some power - and I am pretty sure his demons have power as well - and probably would see themselves as gods at least compared to humanity. Similarly, many humans see themselves as gods - they pretty much do whatever they want to do.  Within parameters of course. And then there is the passage Brother DT quoted from Jesus about calling the pharisees "gods". I have explained that above. 
Yet, none of these gods can be compared to the great and awesome God of the bible. 

Brother DT's description of Jesus however is flawed.  This is what he has said:

"Within the scriptures, Jesus is a blatant serial killer as Yahweh God incarnate, He is greedy, jealous, selfish, self-centered, petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capricious, and malevolent. Also, our Jesus was an abortionist which leaves a lot of embarrassment if we picket Family Planning Clinics, do you get our hypocrisy if we do?"
A Blatant Serial Killer: Seriously. Let alone the clear nonsense of attributing a human failing to the divine, God can not fit the description of a blatant serial killer. In our world, the definition of a serial killer is: a person who commits a series of murders, often with no apparent motive and typically following a characteristic, predictable behavior pattern.

In the first instance - God has not committed murder on any occasion.  There is no evidence whatsoever that God murdered anyone in the entire bible. Murder is defined as the unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another.  Firstly, God is not a human being - and when he was in the form of Jesus, he never killed any person. Secondly, every person God ever put to death or had put to death was lawful.  Please find any occasion that God put anyone to death or had someone put to death in an unlawful situation. You wont find one - because none exists. Moreover, a serial killer has no apparent motive. All people God had put to death or put to death himself - were done so for reasons. God is not a whimsical character - he acts with precision and he does so explaining why he puts people to death when he does or when he asks someone else to do it. In many cases it was because they had broken the law he told them to obey. In other cases, they were enemies of his people - who would destroy his people. His sense hence is either to protect - self defence  or to prevent those people carrying out even worse crimes against their own people. If it is true that he has a pattern, it is that he first told the people to obey - and then they did not - and then they were judged - and on occasions they were put to death. This is the same as our criminal law systems in the West today and around the world. If God is a serial killer then this makes every country and state in the world guilty as well. This is a nonsense. 

Is God greedy? What a weird thing to say? What is he greedy about? He owns everything anyway - and could make anything he wanted too. Greed is nonsense. If greed is to do with the fact that he wants to be recognised as the only creator and God in this world and he desires our sole worship - I would not call that greed but the right thing and expected thing. 

Is God jealous? Well yes and no. He is jealous in the sense that he desires his people not to commit adultery. I do not think that is wrong. It is something I desire as well. I don't want my wife to be unfaithful. And if my jealousy for her love is righteous then that is a good thing. Yet God is not jealous in the sense of a sinful resentfulness, spying and untrusting and distorted manner. God does not go spying on his people - nor does he go stalking them as well. Yet he is desirous that they are faithful to him - and if he sees them being unfaithful then rightfully so - he will respond in justice. 

Humans are self-centred and this is a problem because they are sinful. God is God and rightfully deserves all honour and glory. Yet even in his so called honour - he was prepared to die himself for the sake of humanity. This is the opposite of self-centredness and is called humility. Take a read of Philippians 2 to see how Jesus - humbled himself. 

God is not petty.  That is just a foolish thing to say. Petty is defined as (of behavior) characterized by an undue concern for trivial matters, especially in a small-minded or spiteful way.  What nonsense. If this was the case then every human being would now be in Hell.  Yet this is not the case - God mercifully extends his grace that enables sinners such as yourself to be able to live despite the fact that it may well deserve death. The fact that you get to breath a new breath every day is evidence that God is not petty.  

God is utterly just. He is super just. And he is super mercy. God's law is simple - He is God and you must obey. If you disobey you die. That is the essence of justice. The fact that God does not immediately put you to death when you sin - is called mercy. You deserve death - that is just. Yet in his grace - he is being super just - just letting you live. You dont even understand the meaning of justice if you think God is not just. 

God is forgiving. God forgives all people who repent of their sins and turn to him. This does not mean that he does not punish them nor that they dont receive further punishment in this life. An example like Moses springs to mind. Moses repented for his grumbling to God. God forgave him - but told him that this grumbling would see that Moses does not lead the people of Israel into the promised land. Yet God did forgive Moses. God on the other does not forgive those who do not repent of their sins. This does not mean that God would not forgive them if they did repent. He tells us he will.  The pre-condition of forgiveness is repentance. Luke 17:3-4. 

Control Freak: Again seriously. a person whose behavior indicates a powerful need to control people or circumstances in everyday matters. As i indicated above God is not human - he is not concerned to control every situation in the world everyday.  A good example of this is the garden of eden. God put Adam and Eve into the garden and then he set them loose to do whatever they wanted to do - and to eat whatever they waned to do. Sounds like a control freak to me - duh. Only one rule - don't eat from that one tree. One rule - and you think he is a control freak. You have more rules for God than he does for you. And really, at the end of the day - the entire bible is really based on the same principle - Don't eat from that one tree. It is the exact opposite in fact. God allows much freedom - all of which people can do whatever they want - they just have to realise that whenever they eat of that tree there is a consequence. 

God is not vindictive. He punishes justly and properly.  He could take a vindictive approach and simply wipe everyone out. The fact that he does not - is evidence he is not vindictive. Saying he is - just does not cut the mustard. 

Blood thirsty  ethnic cleanser.  simply wrong. He did advocate wiping out several nations - because they were evil. So evil in fact that despite the fact that Israel did not wipe them out - other nations did - and the nations themselves were already wiping themselves out for their own evilness. You have never read the history of the nations around Israel - you dont get how evil they were. Yet you think God is evil because he says that their evilness - such as butchering their own children - and giving them away as sex slaves and sacrificing them to their gods which were just rock and wood is nothing. You look at the evil of the catholic church and you are outraged - yet you think nothing of the vileness and horror of these nations. And then you have the audacity to suggest that God is evil because he wants them wiped out. 

Misogynist:a person who dislikes, despises, or is strongly prejudiced against women. More nonsense - The God of the bible loves females - and is not biased against them. Heroes in the bible include Ruth and and Hannah and Esther and Deborah in the OT - and in the NT there are many more -  The Jewish nation was a country mile ahead of every nation around them in the rights of females.  Yes, males were the head of the home - after God. Yet, it was males who were circumcised - not females. It was females who were to be honoured and looked after and cherished. In the NT it was Paul's words - which put male and female on the same level - against what the Romans and the greeks would have liked. In Rome and in Greece woman were treated less than slaves - had no rights - but because of the Biblical teaching on females - they have had their rights continue to increase through history. The fact that you cant see this - just demonstrates your prejudice against the truth. 

I will continue the rest tomorrow. 

Stephen
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@Tradesecret

 Yes, I do believe Jesus is GOD. And as such he has existed from eternity - that is what the bible teaches. No problems with that position. 

 So then the Brother is correct.. There is no need for all of your filibustering word salad , flapping and clap trap. 

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God is not vindictive. He punishes justly and properly. 
You mean like the condemnation of all humanity, for all time, because one human did something God knew he would do (eat the fruit)? It's literally the first punishment in the bible. Also, is it truly not only just, but SUPERjust, and SUPERmerciful, to have the only loophole in your system of punishment and redemption be to torture the only character claimed to be free of sin, in order to get rid of the sins of others? Is it JUST, let's say, for you to allow another person to accept punishment for a crime you committed? Is it not more merciful to simply say "Wow, I set up a flawed system here. I'm all powerful, so I'm just going to hit the reset button on all these sins, rather than torture the only innocent person on earth, who happens to also be me."

He could take a vindictive approach and simply wipe everyone out. The fact that he does not - is evidence he is not vindictive. Saying he is - just does not cut the mustard. 
Well, didn't he do this though, drowning babies and animals in a 40 day flood? Why doesn't that "cut the mustard"? 
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@Tradesecret
Sorry, forgot to @ you.
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@RoderickSpode



RoderickSpode,

YOUR UNGODLY QUOTE: "You mean he most likely didn't wake you up at 3AM?"

What part of me wanting Jesus to exist didn't you understand?

Furthermore, to show respect to Jesus, then the least of which you should capitalize his pronoun "He."  Understood? Then you wonder why I call you "pseudo-christians."  :(



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@Tradesecret


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++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Tradesecret,

YOU KEEP RUNNING AWAY FROM DEBATING ME RELATIVE TO JESUS’ TRUE MO THAT I KEEP SHOWING AD INFINITUM IN THIS THREAD, WHY?  SCARED?  AFRAID OF BEING MADE THE BIBLICAL FOOL AGAIN? WHAT GIVES?  YOU WANT ME TO PROVE JESUS’ TRUE MO, SO LETS DEBATE IT.  DON’T YOU REALIZE YOUR EQUALLY BIBLE IGNORANT PSEUDO-CHRISTIANS ARE WATCHING YOU RUN? HOW TOTALLY EMBARRASSING!

Heads up, Don’t even think that the clap trap sophomoric rhetoric that you have given thus far shown above in this thread is even close to explaining away Jesus’ TRUE MO, understood?  Your assumed intellect will not allow you to be embarrassed with such ever so wanting childlike refutations. Unbelievable!  You're acting like you want to be the #1 Bible ignorant pseudo-christian on DEBATEART, therefore taking away this cherished position from ethang5!  

Listen, tell you what, to make it somewhat fair for you, when engaging your outright pseudo-christian idiocy upon the topic in question, I will tie my hands behind me, blindfold myself, and type with my feet, okay? In this way you may have a 1 percent out of 100 chance, okay?

Just you and me Tradesecret, waiting!

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++


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BrotherDThomas
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@ludofl3x


ludofl3x,,

Wasn't it comically entertaining when the biblical fool Tradesecret blatantly called Jesus a LIAR relative to the following Jesus inspired verse where Jesus LITERALLY called His fellow Jews "Gods?"  

“Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I have said you are “gods”’? If he called them ‘gods, to whom the word of God came and Scripture cannot be set aside, what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’?” (John 10:34-36)

TRADESECRETS RESPONSE TO THE "LITERAL" WORD OF JESUS ABOVE:  "Sorry, old chap, Jesus never said that at  all."    HUH? He most certainly and literally did!

This is LITERALLY equal to when Jesus called His people Gods in the following verse as well: “I said, You are gods, And all of you are sons of the Most High." (Psalm 82:6)



As if Tradesecrets total biblical ignorance wasn't enough, he unfortunately has now committed the dreadful "Unpardonable Sin" by calling Jesus' spirit of His Triune Doctrine A LIAR. From this time forth, Tradesecret thinking that he has a future in heaven is now moot!  No insidious apologetics or spin can save Tradesecret from this fate.

Just think, if Tradesecret lived in the JUDEO-Christian biblical times and called Jesus a LIAR, he would be put to death! Anyone who blasphemes the name of the Lord is to be put to death. The entire assembly must stone them. Whether foreigner or native-born, when they blaspheme the Name they are to be put to death." (Leviticus 24:16).  But, as explicitly shown by Tradesecret committing the Unpardonable Sin, our Bible ignorant pseudo-christian will be taking an E-ticket ride to the depths of Hell upon his earthly demise.  So sad. :(


Since Tradesecret is going to Hell upon his demise anyway, then we can set aside another blasphemous quote he made towards Jesus as follows:

TRADESECRET LAUGHABLE QUOTE ONCE AGAIN: "God is a spirit. God is invisible."

Uh, tell that to Jesus as the serial killer Hebrew Yahweh God incarnate as He walked the earth within the scriptures and SEEN BY MANY!  H-E-L-L-O? 



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Tradesecret
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@ludofl3x
God is not vindictive. He punishes justly and properly. 
You mean like the condemnation of all humanity, for all time, because one human did something God knew he would do (eat the fruit)? It's literally the first punishment in the bible. Also, is it truly not only just, but SUPERjust, and SUPERmerciful, to have the only loophole in your system of punishment and redemption be to torture the only character claimed to be free of sin, in order to get rid of the sins of others? Is it JUST, let's say, for you to allow another person to accept punishment for a crime you committed? Is it not more merciful to simply say "Wow, I set up a flawed system here. I'm all powerful, so I'm just going to hit the reset button on all these sins, rather than torture the only innocent person on earth, who happens to also be me."
Humanity condemned itself when it made its own choice. It knew the consequences and went ahead and did it anyway. No much good complaining about the time you serve when you chose to do the crime.  How  many prisoners in prison say - it is not fair. Gee it is not like God  never told them what would happen to them.  Fact is - humanity, not God condemned themselves to Hell. God had already given them so much freedom, yet that was not enough for them. They had to be greedy. They had to have more. They wanted to be God. Nothing has really changed. Vindictiveness would make sense if God had simply condemned them without letting them know the rules - which were really easy to follow. Really easy. It is not like God said - you must do the impossible in order to satisfy my honor. All he said - was eat and multiply. Go and have fun in whatever way you like. Just don't think you know better than me - I am God, after all.  And humanity, in its all of its wisdom - threw that out - they did not want any rules. And that is still the problem today. Except now, humanity knows that humanity needs rules. Hindsight is always a harsh master. 

Did God know they were going to eat the fruit? Of course he did. God knows all things. This does not mean that God made them do it. And humanity would have preferred they had their own choice - rather than just be slaves and robots. Why is it that - you (not collectively) complain about the fact that had a choice which God knew you would make and you also whinge about the thought that God impacts upon your freewill.  Fact is - either way you complain. This people is called sin and resentment - and dare I say it - guilt.   The fact that the State knows that many of its rules will be broken every day is not a reason not to have rules. The state is not even omniscient and it still makes rules. It still tells its citizens - you cannot be me. 

It would have been totally just to let everyone die in their sins. Absolutely just because humanity committed the crime knowing its sentence was death. And Adam knew this knowing full well he was sentencing all of humanity to death including the babies. He still made the choice. He thought the risk was worth it. But he was wrong. God has every right to send everyone who has ever lived to that end - including Noah. Including Moses. Including David. Including Peter. Including Paul. Including Mary the Mother of Jesus. And if he did so - it would have totally just and totally appropriate. To reject this notion is to reject any understanding of justice and legal systems even that exist in our world. Legal systems are set up specifically to deal with human behavior - and justice systems work entirely in line with everything I have said so far. 

It is not a loophole.  It is the prerogative of those who have been offended - or those who are in charge to show mercy. The President of the USA has this power. Why should God not? The governors of local prisons have this power, why should not the God of the universe? Would you prefer a God who simply acts just and shows no mercy to one who is just and merciful? Or would prefer a God who is not just - and simply lets everyone do whatever they want - you know a bit like letting Adam and Eve into the garden of Eden without any rules whatsoever? I used the term super just or super merciful because it seems appropriate - because it is more than fair using the socialist understanding of fair - to grant mercy to people who do not deserve it. Can you imagine the outrage that would occur if prisons all over the land decided to let all of the pedophiles out? Yet the sin of treason against God is worse than pedophilia. And that is what Adam and Eve committed along with all of humanity since. Yet even then God has provided mercy for some of these people. It is not a loophole - it is the prerogative of the sovereign - a principle recognized even in our fallen system. 

And what you don't get is this. The one person who never sinned - was himself. In other words, he took the punishment for those who were prepared to repent of their treason - and he took it on himself. A loophole? The punishment needed to be paid. Same as it is in our societies justice system. If people owe a fine - and they don't have the money to pay for it - they either get someone else to pay for it - or they go and do time in prison. It has to be paid because a wrong has been committed. Jesus paid this fine with his own body. He died and bore the sins of his people. Who gets this benefit? Only those who are prepared to give up their treason against God. 

Some might say he did set the reset button when he destroyed the world at Noah's flood. And guess what - humanity continued to do what they always did -reject God and continue on their merry way. 

God did not set up a flawed system. He set up a just system. You don't like the system because you want to be your own God and the system does not allow you to do this. The system continues to call you to account - to repent of your sins. You don't like the system. That is your problem. You don't even have to agree with the system. Yet that does not stop you from being in the system. I see people all of the time walk into a court room only to say to the court "I don't accept your jurisdiction". What do you think happens? Does the judge just say - "Ok then, see you later, you can home"? Or do they simply continue with the process? 

Is it just for me to allow someone else to accept responsibility for my crime? Why not? In a system whereby we are on death row because one man- Adam decided to sentence all of his family to death for his action - doing so on my behalf without my permission, why would it also not be just that one man might also represent us in that sentence? That is the system. I am grateful that Jesus did this for me. I am grateful that judge accepts this provision. As I said before - even our worldly state has provisions for others to bear the responsibility of the offender in different circumstances. Why do you think that if the state has this prerogative, that the God of the universe is wrong for utilising? 



Tradesecret
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@BrotherDThomas
radesecret,

YOU KEEP RUNNING AWAY FROM DEBATING ME RELATIVE TO JESUS’ TRUE MO THAT I KEEP SHOWING AD INFINITUM IN THIS THREAD, WHY?  SCARED?  AFRAID OF BEING MADE THE BIBLICAL FOOL AGAIN? WHAT GIVES?  YOU WANT ME TO PROVE JESUS’ TRUE MO, SO LETS DEBATE IT.  DON’T YOU REALIZE YOUR EQUALLY BIBLE IGNORANT PSEUDO-CHRISTIANS ARE WATCHING YOU RUN? HOW TOTALLY EMBARRASSING!

Heads up, Don’t even think that the clap trap sophomoric rhetoric that you have given thus far shown above in this thread is even close to explaining away Jesus’ TRUE MO, understood?  Your assumed intellect will not allow you to be embarrassed with such ever so wanting childlike refutations. Unbelievable!  You're acting like you want to be the #1 Bible ignorant pseudo-christian on DEBATEART, therefore taking away this cherished position from ethang5!  

Listen, tell you what, to make it somewhat fair for you, when engaging your outright pseudo-christian idiocy upon the topic in question, I will tie my hands behind me, blindfold myself, and type with my feet, okay? In this way you may have a 1 percent out of 100 chance, okay?

Just you and me Tradesecret, waiting!
I notice this: you don't have the capacity to even address one of my responses. Hence the total paragraph of ad hom attack. Thanks for conceding. 
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@BrotherDThomas
Uh, tell that to Jesus as the serial killer Hebrew Yahweh God incarnate as He walked the earth within the scriptures and SEEN BY MANY!  H-E-L-L-O? 
Ok smarty pants, when Jesus walked on this earth in his ministry as a human - how many people did he kill? And don't go back to the OT because that specifically was not when he was walking this earth as a human in his ministry. You only the gospels to play with? 

So, Please take us to the gospels - where Jesus in his human ministry is portrayed and as part of human ministry killed anyone? The fact is Mr Genius, you won't find any because it did not happen.  Your nonsense is once again demonstrated for all and sundry to see. After all, if the character of Jesus is to be a murderous blood thirsty baby killer or whatever you imagine in your tiny little brain, then this would have been demonstrated while he was walking the planet as a human amongst people.  If he was vindictive, if he was petty, if he was a serial killer, then he would not have been able to prevent himself - and yet the facts refute your lies completely. 

There is not a scrap of evidence of your lies anywhere in the gospels.  And if his life on earth reveals his character as it did. Humble, self-sacrificing, generous, helpful, and loving towards people, then it stands to reason that this is how his character is as God as well. And if that is the case, which it clearly is, then by implication the rest of the bible also reveals the actions and character of a Holy God - one who is just and judges sinners - and one who also shows mercy to others. And lo and behold - this is exactly what we see when we read the bible as a whole. 

You don't have to like it old chap, but those are the facts - and the facts are not in dispute. The only fallback from here is - one you deny Jesus is God - and take the view that God in the Bible is as you have proscribed before - (which you have not done and cannot do) and that Jesus is just a good man completely at odds with this God - or you take the view - which incidentally is your real position - that you don't believe in God except to hate him. 

All in all, it is time for you to stop playing the goose - and get a life.  


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@Tradesecret
TL:DR. Skimmed it.

If god knew what humans would do, and didn't want to spend eternity punishing then for doing it (leaving aside how is it just if your great grandfather commits a crime, you also have to go to jail for it), put the tree there anyway, how did he not cause them to do it? I mean he has a plan for everything. 

Please keep the sermons short. Address the questions, I get it, you're faithful, but my not following the religion you've chosen has nothing to do with me wanting to be god, that's stupid sounding and I don't even know what you think it means. I don't follow it because there's no reason to believe any of it is true, that it's an effective manual for living, or that it offers some sort of moral compass that ends up being miscalibrated. I've done just fine so far. Have you really considered how just your god is? 

Let me ask you one last question: can anyone go to heaven if they don't know Jesus and accept him as their personal savior? Like can the nicest muslim child go to heaven if they go into st. Peter's office denying Jesus as his personal savior?
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@ludofl3x
Let me ask you one last question: can anyone go to heaven if they don't know Jesus and accept him as their personal savior? Like can the nicest muslim child go to heaven if they go into st. Peter's office denying Jesus as his personal savior?
Why? What should it matter? We don't pick a system because we think it is fair or just. We might try to move to one if there is one that fits our view of just. But again that comes down to who decides the rules of what just is? Is it God or it you? And if you think it is you - then in my view that is you deciding you want to be in control - God. 

As for an answer to your question I will provide a quote which I hold to: it is part of the Declarative Statement of the PCA and the underlined words are probably what you need to read.

"That while none are saved except through the mediation of Christ and by the grace of the Holy Spirit, Whoworketh when and where and how it pleaseth Him; while the duty of sending the Gospel to the heathenwho are sunk in ignorance, sin and misery is imperative; and while the outward and ordinary means ofsalvation for those capable of being called by the Word are the ordinances of the Gospel, in accepting thesubordinate standard it is not required to be held that any who die in infancy are lost, or that God may notextend His Grace to any who are without the pale of ordinary means, as it may seem good in His sight."

In other words, while Christians accept that there is the ordinary way in which people trust God and are reconciled to him, God in his grace is able to save any he might seem fit.  This means - that it is a matter for God, not for me to make that decision.  
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@BrotherDThomas
What is even more laughable is that - the one verse you want to quibble about has nothing to do with your assertions about Jesus. 

The fact that you missed this is - giving the rest of us a good old laugh. 
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@Tradesecret



YOU KEEP RUNNING AWAY FROM DEBATING ME RELATIVE TO JESUS’ TRUE MO THAT I KEEP SHOWING AD INFINITUM IN THIS THREAD, WHY?  SCARED?  AFRAID OF BEING MADE THE BIBLICAL FOOL AGAIN? WHAT GIVES?  YOU WANT ME TO PROVE JESUS’ TRUE MO, SO LETS DEBATE IT.  DON’T YOU REALIZE YOUR EQUALLY BIBLE IGNORANT PSEUDO-CHRISTIANS ARE WATCHING YOU RUN? HOW TOTALLY EMBARRASSING!

Heads up, Don’t even think that the clap trap sophomoric rhetoric that you have given thus far shown above in this thread is even close to explaining away Jesus’ TRUE MO, understood?  Your assumed intellect will not allow you to be embarrassed with such ever so wanting childlike refutations. Unbelievable!  You're acting like you want to be the #1 Bible ignorant pseudo-christian on DEBATEART, therefore taking away this cherished position from ethang5!  

Listen, tell you what, to make it somewhat fair for you, when engaging your outright pseudo-christian idiocy upon the topic in question, I will tie my hands behind me, blindfold myself, and type with my feet, okay? In this way you may have a 1 percent out of 100 chance, okay?

Just you and me Tradesecret, waiting!
I notice this: you don't have the capacity to even address one of my responses. Hence the total paragraph of ad hom attack. Thanks for conceding. 




Tradesecret,

Addressing your weak and meek post #193 that explicitly shows you are so SCARED! LOL

HOW IGNORANT CAN YOU GET?!  THE WHOLE CONCEPT OF ME DEBATING YOUR BIBLICAL IGNORANCE IS FOR ME TO SHOW YOU IN HOW WRONG YOU ARE REGARDING JESUS' TRUE MO!  H-E-L-L-O, ANYBODY HOME TODAY, NOT! HOW EMBARRASSING CAN YOU GET?


With your "chicken runaway" attitude in the name of Satan, then there is only a few reasons why you RUNAWAY from this debate, and that you have to accept, and they are as follows at your laughable expense:

1. You are literally scared to enter a debate with me on the topic in question, because you know that I will easily "own you outright!"

2. You know that I will further make you more of a biblical fool than ethang5!

3.  You sense that I will use the direct words of Jesus to show you to be one of the most biblically ignorant pseudo-christians on DEBATEART!

4.  You realize that when I am done with you, it would be hard for you to stay upon DEBATEART because of the embarrassment you will incur! 

5.  You can't get rid of the "chicken feathers" fast enough around your computer to see the screen! LOL


Do you honestly think that I like owning you here on DEBATEART?  NO, I do not!  Therefore, if you run away this time, you will explicitly show the membership of your cowardly act to engage a topic that relates to your faith!   Furthermore, I will keep these posts within this thread showing your pseudo-christian assumed friends now, and into the future, of your RUNAWAY status,  and of which will be so embarrassing for you to even show yourself anymore within DEBATEART, do you understand?  


At this time, this link shows your position to my challenge of debating you upon Jesus' TRUE modus operandi:  



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@Tradesecret
intelligence is correct, you posses TRADE secrets. Be careful!

LOL but seriously good job on debating BrotherD
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@Tradesecret



Tradesecret,

Pssst, if you are going to "cherry pick" my posts to you like you have done in your post #194, showing the fact that you continue to be a bible fool, especially in calling Jesus a LIAR, and by creating the Unpardonable Sin, then include the entire post instead, understood?  


Here, for your convenience once again, YOU RAN AWAY FROM THE REST OF MY POST #191 that is now shown below making you to never being able to enter Heaven!  Sorry. :(

QUOTING ME TO LUDOFL3X:  Wasn't it comically entertaining when the biblical fool Tradesecret blatantly called Jesus a LIAR relative to the following Jesus inspired verse where Jesus LITERALLY called His fellow Jews "Gods?"  

“Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I have said you are “gods”’? If he called them ‘gods, to whom the word of God came and Scripture cannot be set aside, what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’?” (John 10:34-36)

TRADESECRETS RESPONSE TO THE "LITERAL" WORD OF JESUS ABOVE:  "Sorry, old chap, Jesus never said that at  all."    HUH? He most certainly and literally did!

This is LITERALLY equal to when Jesus called His people Gods in the following verse as well: “I said, You are gods, And all of you are sons of the Most High." (Psalm 82:6)



As if Tradesecrets total biblical ignorance wasn't enough, he unfortunately has now committed the dreadful "Unpardonable Sin" by calling Jesus' spirit of His Triune Doctrine A LIAR. From this time forth, Tradesecret thinking that he has a future in heaven is now moot!  No insidious apologetics or spin can save Tradesecret from this fate.

Just think, if Tradesecret lived in the JUDEO-Christian biblical times and called Jesus a LIAR, he would be put to death! Anyone who blasphemes the name of the Lord is to be put to death. The entire assembly must stone them. Whether foreigner or native-born, when they blaspheme the Name they are to be put to death." (Leviticus 24:16).  But, as explicitly shown by Tradesecret committing the Unpardonable Sin, our Bible ignorant pseudo-christian will be taking an E-ticket ride to the depths of Hell upon his earthly demise.  So sad. :(



RUN TRADESECRET, RUN, HURRY, BEFORE OTHERS READ YOUR EMBARRASSING ACTS ABOVE, RUN!  LOL




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Tradesecret
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@BrotherDThomas
Tell you what, after you address post 194 appropriately and properly, and not with your usual garbage, then perhaps - once I see you know how to debate properly, I will consider debating you. 

First, address and respond to post 194 and we will have a practice debate. If you can demonstrate you have the proper skills of debate, then I will happily debate you. And lets be very clear about this - just because you think you have demonstrated it - does not mean in fact that you have done so. 

So please follow the rules of debating - and we will see. Post 194 essentially sets up the debate:


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@Tradesecret



Tradesecret,

YOUR BIBLE IGNORANT QUOTE ONCE AGAIN IN POST #194: "Ok smarty pants, when Jesus walked on this earth in his ministry as a human - how many people did he kill? And don't go back to the OT because that specifically was not when he was walking this earth as a human in his ministry. You only the gospels to play with? "

Okay, barring the fact that Jesus as the HEBREW God Yahweh incarnate had many brutal and horrific murdering sprees within the Old Testament, and that you are to SCARED to discuss with me in a debate, as you have embarrassingly and cowardly shown the entire membership. I will use a few New Testament passages that you requested that have Jesus in a murdering state, where He wants to murder by proxy, threatens to murder, and calls the Pharisees' out for not murdering, in which murders are done in Jesus' name, which has the  same outcome as Jesus doing these murders Himself.  Okay?

JESUS SAID: “I tell you that everyone who has will be given more; but the one who does not have, even what he has will be taken away from him. And these enemies of mine who were unwilling for me to rule over them, bring them here and slay them in front of me. After Jesus had said this, He went on ahead, going up to Jerusalem.….” ( Luke 19:26-28)

JESUS SAID: “Indeed I will cast her into a sickbed, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of their deeds I will kill her children with death, and all the churches shall know that I am He who searches the minds and hearts. And I will give to each one of you according to your works.” (Revelation 2: 22-23) 

JESUS SAID: "Then came to Jesus scribes and Pharisees, which were of Jerusalem, saying,  Why do thy disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? for they wash not their hands when they eat bread.  But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?  For God commanded, saying, 'Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death."  (Matthew 15: 1-4)

The above passages, parables or not,  were spoken by Jesus, attributed to Jesus, and therefore shows Jesus in a murdering modus operandi. For your runaway state of mind, I have left out further pertinent details that show Jesus in a more embarrassing light to said passages above, but I don't want to over stress what brain cells you have left at this time, especially in showing you to be the BLATANT RUNAWAY to debating me in Jesus' TRUE MO!  Isn't it sickening that Jesus still has that "murdering spree" of his creation in the New Testament as well?  :( 


Tradesecret, seriously, how much embarrassment are you willing to take here on DEBATERART?  Here I thought ethang5 relished himself in being biblically embarrassed, but you are starting to take the cake in this respect!  Congratulations Tradesecret!  


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Tradesecret
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@BrotherDThomas
YOUR BIBLE IGNORANT QUOTE ONCE AGAIN IN POST #194: "Ok smarty pants, when Jesus walked on this earth in his ministry as a human - how many people did he kill? And don't go back to the OT because that specifically was not when he was walking this earth as a human in his ministry. You only the gospels to play with? "

Okay, barring the fact that Jesus as the HEBREW God Yahweh incarnate had many brutal and horrific murdering sprees within the Old Testament, and that you are to SCARED to discuss with me in a debate, as you have embarrassingly and cowardly shown the entire membership. I will use a few New Testament passages that you requested that have Jesus in a murdering state, where He wants to murder by proxy, threatens to murder, and calls the Pharisees' out for not murdering, in which murders are done in Jesus' name, which has the  same outcome as Jesus doing these murders Himself.  Okay?

JESUS SAID: “I tell you that everyone who has will be given more; but the one who does not have, even what he has will be taken away from him. And these enemies of mine who were unwilling for me to rule over them, bring them here and slay them in front of me. After Jesus had said this, He went on ahead, going up to Jerusalem.….” ( Luke 19:26-28)

JESUS SAID: “Indeed I will cast her into a sickbed, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of their deeds I will kill her children with death, and all the churches shall know that I am He who searches the minds and hearts. And I will give to each one of you according to your works.” (Revelation 2: 22-23) 

JESUS SAID: "Then came to Jesus scribes and Pharisees, which were of Jerusalem, saying,  Why do thy disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? for they wash not their hands when they eat bread.  But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?  For God commanded, saying, 'Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death."  (Matthew 15: 1-4)

The above passages, parables or not,  were spoken by Jesus, attributed to Jesus, and therefore shows Jesus in a murdering modus operandi. For your runaway state of mind, I have left out further pertinent details that show Jesus in a more embarrassing light to said passages above, but I don't want to over stress what brain cells you have left at this time, especially in showing you to be the BLATANT RUNAWAY to debating me in Jesus' TRUE MO!   LOL. 


Tradesecret, seriously, how much embarrassment are you willing to take here on DEBATERART?  Here I thought ethang5 relished himself in being biblically embarrassed, but you are starting to take the cake in this respect!  Congratulations Tradesecret!  

Well certainly it is a good try. So cudos for that. Yet, none of them demonstrate Jesus killing anyone.  The first verse is a parable of a story. We might as well call Tolkien a bloodthirsty murderer for all the people killed in the Lord of the Rings.

Your second verse is not even from the Gospels - which was the entire point of this discussion, proving how desperate you are too make a point. Your quote:

uh, tell that to Jesus as the serial killer Hebrew Yahweh God incarnate as He walked the earth within the scriptures and SEEN BY MANY!  H-E-L-L-O? 
Not only that - it is talking about judgment. And I clearly said judgement is not murder - it is a lawful execution and metaphorical at that. In the verse - she is also given an opportunity to repent and receive forgiveness - but chooses not too. 

Your third verse is an OT quote which says - to kids to honour their parents - and he who curses his parents should be put to death. Notice Dear Brother that if no one curses their parents - then no one dies. And I would think that if people do curse their parents - unless there is a jolly good reason to do so - then they should be put to death. It does not make Jesus a serial killer for quoting the OT and it certainly does not make him a serial killer for supporting a good relationship with parents. You are grasping for straws .

But as you rightly concede Jesus did not kill anyone while he walked on the earth in his human ministry. And while I accept that these words were words that came from his mouth - they show only that he is a good and holy judge who not only protects families but will ensure that those who want to destroy the same are punished. Yet even here there is no indication that he would do unlawfully or vindictively, or in any way that is petty. As for suggesting it demonstrates his MO - you are clearly desperate to make a point. 

But for you to win a debate you need to have an argument. Any argument would be better than none.  But knowing you don't have an argument - rather than follow the rules of debating which would acknowledge this - you obfuscate and deflect and try and change the goal posts.  

Why don't you try again? Oh yeah and this time without the normal garbage and ad hom attacks. 
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@Tradesecret



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Tradesecret,

YOUR EVER WANTING AND COMICAL QUOTE: "Tell you what, after you address post 194 appropriately and properly, and not with your usual garbage, then perhaps - once I see you know how to debate properly, I will consider debating you. "

In addressing your scared post #201, THE DEBATE WILL HAVE ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do in how I address your biblical ignorance in your post #194, and the many others posts where I have addressed your comical conclusions, and then you ran away from them like nobody noticed!   The conclusions in which you have posted already within this thread, where you "assume" have cancelled out, in part, Jesus' true modus operandi, are comical, sophomoric, and grade schoolish to say the least. These aforementioned statements will be shown to be embarrassing to you if you are able to put your big boy pants on and engage!  I saw your weak type of arguments in High School, priceless!

We can ALL see you're already coming up with excuses in that I am supposed to now "debate properly," "have the proper skills of debate," "follow the rules of a debate," etc., etc., as if these rules needed to be followed in our discussion to date, where I have easily made you the biblical fool and have not followed said rules, and that you've accepted!  Whats next? Do I have to be wearing a white T-shirt, blue jeans, and only post to you on odd days of the month, between the times of 3:09 pm and 2:13 am?  Maybe you need me to only post to you on Tuesdays, Thursday and Saturday afternoons, and obviously not on Sunday because it is the day of rest? LOL!

You have danced around for so long, and knowing that I am leaving on a trip forthwith, we have lost valuable time in your hiding from the inevitable!  "This is because I only have about 3 days or so to show your continued biblical ignorance at your expense, because of a planed trip, okay?"https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/3557-what-is-your-favorite-argument-for-the-existence-of-god?page=7&post_number=172

WHAT IS GOING TO BE YOUR NEXT EXCUSE IN FRONT OF THE MEMBERSHIP?!



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Stephen
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@Tradesecret
Yet, none of them demonstrate Jesus killing anyone. 

Is not Jesus also Jehovah the god of the Hebrews and the Israelite?  That  was also this first the last, the Alpha & Omega from the beginning of time? 



We might as well call Tolkien a bloodthirsty murderer for all the people killed in the Lord of the Rings.

Stop being silly, there is no comparison, And we all know Tolkien was simply a brilliant writer of fiction. Well most of us do.
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@BrotherDThomas
YOUR EVER WANTING AND COMICAL QUOTE: "Tell you what, after you address post 194 appropriately and properly, and not with your usual garbage, then perhaps - once I see you know how to debate properly, I will consider debating you. "

In addressing your scared post #201, THE DEBATE WILL HAVE ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do in how I address your biblical ignorance in your post #194, and the many others posts where I have addressed your comical conclusions, and then you ran away from them like nobody noticed!   The conclusions in which you have posted already within this thread, where you "assume" have cancelled out, in part, Jesus' true modus operandi, are comical, sophomoric, and grade schoolish to say the least. These aforementioned statements will be shown to be embarrassing to you if you are able to put your big boy pants on and engage!  I saw your weak type of arguments in High School, priceless!

We can ALL see you're already coming up with excuses in that I am supposed to now "debate properly," "have the proper skills of debate," "follow the rules of a debate," etc., etc., as if these rules needed to be followed in our discussion to date, where I have easily made you the biblical fool and have not followed said rules, and that you've accepted!  Whats next? Do I have to be wearing a white T-shirt, blue jeans, and only post to you on odd days of the month, between the times of 3:09 pm and 2:13 am?  Maybe you need me to only post to you on Tuesdays, Thursday and Saturday afternoons, and obviously not on Sunday because it is the day of rest? LOL!

You have danced around for so long, and knowing that I am leaving on a trip forthwith, we have lost valuable time in your hiding from the inevitable!  "This is because I only have about 3 days or so to show your continued biblical ignorance at your expense, because of a planed trip, okay?"https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/3557-what-is-your-favorite-argument-for-the-existence-of-god?page=7&post_number=172

LOL! @ your false sense of arrogance. 

For your information whether I debate you or not is no skin of my nose. I have nothing to prove or to lose. You don't get that do you? 

But what I do want is a real debate - I don't want to debate for the sake of having a debate. I don't want to debate to give you a lift. I don't want to debate in a framework of a popularity contest.  For me this is not a pissing contest. 

I do however want a proper debate and to know that the person I am debating understands what a debate is and how it functions. One of the primary things about having a real debate is that parties can recognize when a decent argument arises - but also when they have been beaten fair and square. You don't possess that particular character trait which is necessary for such a debate to properly take place.
 
I gave you a really easy test - Did Jesus kill anyone while he was on earth? All you had to say was no. Concede the point - concede that you recognize in that particular point you were wrong and that you had lost that argument. But did you do this? No, your dumb pride got in the way as it often does - so rather than saying - well - you got me there - you decided to go outside of the rules - change the goal posts and make it about something else. So instead of the actual debate- did Jesus kill anyone? No you said - well he said some words and they infer it don't they? In fact you even left the gospels which specifically was part of the parameters. And then tried to use all of these quotes to jump frog ahead in logic - lightyears ahead of anything rational to say Jesus has an obvious MO of being a serial killer.  Not one argument in your so called rebuttal went to the very point of the debate. If you don't the difference between a battle and war, that is not my problem. But it one for you because while you try to win every battle - you cannot logically win the war. 

It was simple. You just proved you did not want to debate - you only proved you wanted to win at any cost. Even at the loss of your own dignity. But if all you are concerned about is winning - then I am not at all interested in debating with you - since that is not a debate - but a pissing contest - of which I am entirely not interested. 

Take that however you like - but unless you have the capacity to admit you were wrong - at all - especially when everyone else knows that you are - then there is little point in anyone trying debate you because everyone will know that you have no intellectual honesty. And if you don't have that - you will always lose. 


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@Stephen
Yet, none of them demonstrate Jesus killing anyone. 

Is not Jesus also Jehovah the god of the Hebrews and the Israelite?  That  was also this first the last, the Alpha & Omega from the beginning of time? 



We might as well call Tolkien a bloodthirsty murderer for all the people killed in the Lord of the Rings.

Stop being silly, there is no comparison, And we all know Tolkien was simply a brilliant writer of fiction. Well most of us do.
If you are going to criticise my arguments at look at what I am saying. The challenge was for the Brother to demonstrate from the gospels that Jesus while he was in his bodily form in his ministry as a human - killed people. It was specifically not about the invisible non-human form. The Brother had stated such a lie and I called him out on it and asked him to prove it. 

He did not. He could not produce even one verse that Jesus killed anyone. The most he could do was produce two verses which Jesus said - one a parable and one a quote from the OT and then he tried to move the goal posts from "Jesus killing anyone" to Jesus obviously having a MO of being a serial killer". Hence, it was an unspoken concession that Jesus did not kill anyone.  

Of course comparing a parable with the Lord of the Rings seems silly to you. But the Brother attempting to pull the wool over our eyes by a switch and bait trick is more silly. 

Then he had the audacity to suggest that I was making it too hard for him.  I suggest he look up the term intellectual honesty - and attempt to understand what it means. 
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@Stephen
Is not Jesus also Jehovah the god of the Hebrews and the Israelite? That was also this first the last, the Alpha & Omega from the beginning of time?
To quote Wikipedia, "  Jehovah (/dʒɪˈhoʊvə/) is a Latinization of the Hebrew יְהֹוָה, one vocalization of the Tetragrammaton יהוה (YHWH), the proper name of the God of Israel in the Hebrew Bible and one of the seven names of God in Judaism." 
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@Barney



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Moderator Ragnar,

I need a ruling from you relative to the unfortunate statement that Tradesecret has made shown below, before I take the further time to easily Bible Slap him Silly®️ in relation to his outright biblical ignorance. 


TRADESECRETS QUOTE THAT WILL FOREVER TAKE AWAY WHAT CREDENCE HE HAS LEFT WITHIN THIS FORUM:  “And I would think that if people do curse their parents - unless there is a jolly good reason to do so - then they should be put to death.”

The post in question where Tradesecret stated the COC infractions:

Moderator Ragnar:  Barring Jesus’ direct words in Matthew 15: 1-4, where He condones the offspring that curse their parents are to be put to death, and under the DIRECT Code of Conduct of DEBATEART, is it proper for you to either report the quote that Tradesecret made above in “threatening” the life of another in the future to the proper authorities, or ban him altogether, or for a certain time period?  Like Stephen has said in another thread, we have both been banned FOR A LOT LESS than what Tradesecret has just horrifically stated!  Since you are known for being outright fair to the membership, then is it time to set another example in using the adage:  "what's good for the goose is good for the gander?"  

Awaiting your ruling explanation.  Thanking you in advance.

COC: Violence and Criminal Behavior

***You may not threaten or promote violence against any person or persons,*** barring hyperbole against public figures (e.g., “all politicians should be shot”). 

Advocacy in favor of terrorism and/or violent extremism, especially as related to hate groups as generally defined by the SPLC, is likewise prohibited.

You may not promote or encourage suicide or self harm.
***You may not engage in or promote criminal activity.***
You may not engage in or promote the sexual exploitation of minors.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++



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Tradesecret
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@BrotherDThomas
If the learned moderator wishes to take this action, obviously it is a matter for him/ her. 

I do not deny that the words quoted above were mine.  I can only note that it was not my intention to incite violence against parents or children and in fact believed that I was suggesting that the family unit is a good thing which is why Jesus was making such a point. 

In fact the entire point of my post was to demonstrate that Jesus was not a bloodthirsty or violent person and that any advocacy Jesus presented in relation to putting anyone to death was on a lawful basis. I concur with that position entirely. I do not believe in the unlawful killing of anyone. I note this in response to the complainant whose entire basis on this site is a charade or parody - as the only true Christian because he alone believes that Jesus is a bloodthirsty tyrant. I would think that it is therefore ironic in the extreme that such an advocate of such an extreme position (claiming to be the only true Christian is an extreme statement) is concerned about the words I wrote. Nevertheless, it is understandable that the complainant is aggrieved since his butt was totally kicked. LOL! 

If the learned moderator however forms the view that the words I wrote breach the TOC then I am at his / her mercy.  I can only reiterate there was no intention of inciting violence and perhaps to ensure that I will be more careful with the words I write in the future.