Why was the NT Zacharias &quot;struck dumb&quot;?

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@disgusted

DISGUSTED: "How do you allegedly know of the existence of your gods. Did your gods tell you or did a human tell you?"

First, there are ancient historical documents that claim a supernatural origin. The prophetic writings can be traced to a period of time in history. They predict many things in the future that come to pass.

Second, the unity of the Bible - 66 different books written over a period of over a thousand years on three different continents, by numerous authors, that all have as their theme of God's dealings with humanity through a nation in which He promised a Deliverer would come.

Third, the entire Bible has typology and shadows of a greater truth contained in the physical nation of Israel and God's dealing with them. These typologies all focus on the Lord Jesus Christ and are explained further in the NT.

Fourth, throughout the OT God promised a special relationship with Israel, if they agreed to the Mosaic Covenant (which they did - Exodus 24:3) in which the people were constantly disobedient to this covenant or relationship. God repeatedly sent prophets and teachers to them to warn them to turn back from their sin and their worship of foreign gods. They would not obey. God judged them with the destruction promised in Deuteronomy 28:15 onwards. He told them that if they continued in their path He would judge them again, and the Prophet Daniel told these OT people that God had decreed 490 years for them to finish their transgressions, to put an end to their sin by abrogating the OT and replacing it with a better covenant. The time frame shows the Messiah (anointed One being cut off/killed then the judgment and end of the OT. That happened in AD 70.

There are a multitude of other proofs I could offer, including the teaching of Jesus, the evidence of His resurrection from the dead, the witness of the disciples who spread the message over the world of that time (the world they knew) at the risk of death and persecution, then the arguments that only make sense if there is a God, like the moral argument, the ontological argument, the epistemological argument, the argument for personhood, etc., etc.

My faith is not a blind faith or an illogical faith, but a forensic faith/based on evidence.

How about yours?

#92

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09.22.2018 05:51AM

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@PGA2.0

I'll come back with some detail perhaps in the future, but for now your answer is that humans told you. Not much of a recommendation is it?

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#93

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@PGA2.0

He wanted to see the evidence himselfto believe it.

Perfect! “ to believe it”<<<< YOU SAY! And, To NOT believe is, at the very least is to DOUBT

Show me somewhere where he denies having faithin Jesus.

He had no faith that the lord his god Jesus had risen or it appears, in the resurrection. Yet hadn't this very same man who wanted to "die also" witness the raising of Lazarus by Jesus himself?. Your trying to hard to escape this glaring biblical fact.

25 The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I WILL NOT BELIEVE.. Not believing is to have doubt. No matter how you interpret -not believing.

Then he said to Thomas, "Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe.

He did not have faith that Jesus rose from the dead.

To not have faith is to DOUBT. Please stop belaboring the issue. The world knows this particular verse as the story of DOUBTING Thomas, for Christ’s sake!

There is a difference/distinction.

Oh stop it!

Look here webster's hebrew definitions>>>

Faithless ►

Jump to: ISBE • Webster's • Concordance • Thesaurus • Greek • Hebrew • Library • Subtopics • Terms

Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary

1. (a.) Not believing; not giving credit.

2. (a.) Not believing on God or religion; specifically, not believing in the Christian religion.

3. (a.) Not observant of promises or covenants.

4. (a.) Not true to allegiance, duty, or vows; perfidious; treacherous; disloyal; not of true fidelity; inconstant, as a husband or a wife.

5. (a.) Serving to disappoint or deceive; delusive; unsatisfying.

#94

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09.22.2018 06:26AM

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@Stephen

He was struck dumb for not believing the angel. He was an old man and his wife was barren. He like Abraham and Sarah many years prior did not have faith at the time that God would keep his promise.

The NT readers would have known the previous stories in respect of God promising barren women babies. Of course Zechariah like most of us would have been skeptical if someone promised us the same even if we did believe in God.

Hence it is not about whether all of it was written down for the readers or indeed hearers of the gospel. It also included relying upon the history of the nation of Israel.

John the Baptist is an interesting story - but quite profound once you look into it further. Not only was he a prophet, he was a Levite priest.

How do we know this? Because his father was a high priest. What was the ceremony he was performing at the River Jordan? Why was it significant that Jesus came when he was 30 years of age? Was it immersion or was it sprinkling?

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#95

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09.22.2018 07:44AM

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@PGA2.0

Later he doubted and Jesus said that John was the least in the kingdom because of that doubt, yet by God's grace John was still saved.

I am not sure you actually understand this insult towards John, PGA2.0. Do you think you can explain it?

#96

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09.22.2018 07:59AM

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@Stephen

Calling John the least in the kingdom was not an insult. It can be interpreted in a couple of ways.

Firstly, the kingdom is never about being first - it is always about being the servant. John was the servant - and therefore being least is the highest compliment.

secondly, Jesus was distinguishing between the new and the old covenants. anyone in the old covenant is going to be less than those in the new covenant. not in status or importance but in the sense of knowing Jesus as he was. People born and dying before Jesus would not understand the significance of his death and resurrection. they would only understand the shadow not the reality.

It is not an insult, merely a recognition that those who knew Jesus in the new covenant will have a deeper understanding than anyone under the old covenant. I prefer this second understanding over the first one.

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#97

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09.22.2018 08:11AM

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09.22.2018 08:11AM

He was struck dumb for not believing the angel.

Yes and a harsh punishment seeing that,Abraham and Sarah and John the Baptist and Doubting Thomas AND JESUS all doubted and lost faith and were not punished.

He was an old man and his wife was barren. Helike Abraham and Sarah many years prior did not have faith at the time that God Would keep his promise.

Yes we have already covered this story and its comparisons, here in this thread.

Of course Zechariah like most of us would have been skeptical if someone promised us the same even if we did believe in God.

Why would he be “sceptical” “they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless”.Zacharias without doubt had recognized this being for what he was - a messenger from god HIS GOD – so much so, that “he fell in fear”. This is besides the fact that this devout priest who had served his god faithfully all his life and would have known about and perfectly understood the story of the barren couple Abraham & Sarah.

John the Baptist is an interesting story - but quite profound once you look into it further.

I have studied the story of the Baptist very closely, I can assure you of that.

Not only was he a prophet,he was a Levite priest.

Yes I know. He was also many other things too.

How do we know this?

Because Along with many extra-biblical writings I have actually read Luke 1 Luke1:5-25.KJV.

Because his father was a high priest.

Yes we can read that for ourselves in Luke and a few other places. and I have done so. Are you just page filling here, if not get to your point.

It may help you to have read the complete thread - it only four pages.

#98

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@Stephen

you seem to think that people in the bible such as Zechariah had perfect knowledge and also perfect responses to such knowledge. That is unreasonable and ignorant.

the people of Israel throughout their history often had significant information imparted to them - they did not respond righteously but in accordance with their own sinfulness.

Zechariah was no different. I am not convinced he had perfect knowledge, but even if he did, there is no reason for him to react to this information in a faithful manner. It is certainly to be expected that he would be cynical and without belief that this was happening to him. Certainly, this happened many times in the bible that people heard directly from God but acted without faith. This is human. In any event, what happened to Zechariah does not have to be a punishment. It may well have been a sign for him and others about him - that something significant was about to happen. which incidentally is the case - John the Baptist was born - and he was the forecomer to Christ.

As I look at the passage - it does not have to be seen as a punishment - but even if it was - the angel clearly says that Zechariah did not believe his words. so whatever spin you put on Zechariah's words, the angels are quite clear. It seems to be that Zechariah was not so sure that God would do this thing - Zechariah is human just like you and me. His skepticism was evident and it was counted as unbelief. Was it a punishment or a sign? That is another question.

#99

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09.22.2018 12:17PM

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@Tradesecret

Who was there to record these events

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#100

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09.22.2018 12:41PM

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@Tradesecret

As I look at the passage - it does not have to be seen as a punishment -

Then what was it? Is it as I believe that zacharias was told to keep his mouth shut, to keep it all a secret? Because this is what I believe.

but even if it was - the angel clearly says that Zechariah did not believe his words.

There is no indication that Zacharias doubted anything. I have done this to death now. Your excuses for this punishment are getting tedious as are those excuses for the "touching" and "not being allowed to touch" of a risen Jesus. This punishment is no way justifide in the light of those others who doubted WITHOUT any punishment and that includes even the doubting Jesus.

I believe I have made my point. You don't agree. I am happy with that. I don't have to be happy with your dire laboured reasons and excuses in trying to explain away these enigmatic dubious verses.

#101

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09.22.2018 02:56PM

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@disgusted

I'll come back with some detail perhaps in the future, but for now your answer is that humans told you. Not much of a recommendation is it?

***

God spoke to human beings who in turn wrote down His words, inspired by the Holy Spirit. That is the teaching of the Bible. If that is the case, then what is said would correspond with reality. Therefore, prophecy is a logical and reasonable proof confirming that what was said is true. For example, is it reasonable and logical evidence to believe the OT books were all written long before the fall of Jerusalem in AD 70? YES. Is there reasonable and logical reason to believe that God told these Mosaic Covenant people that He would bring judgment on them if/because they would not repent? YES. Is there reasonable and logical evidence to believe God abrogated that Mosaic Covenant in AD 70? YES. Is there reasonable and logical evidence to believe that every NT book was written before AD 70? YES. Now, if you dispute this evidence let us see who have the most reasonable and logical argument for their case.

Would you like to debate it in a formal debate?

The same is true according to worldviews. Which worldview is more reasonable and logical? Is it more reasonable and logical to believe our origins are natural or supernatural, personal or impersonal, mindful or mindless, logical or illogical, purposeful or devoid of purpose, meaningful or unintentional, uniform or chaotic?

#102

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09.22.2018 03:18PM

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@Stephen

Since I can't get my Toolbar working, and you continue to ignore my request to explain why, or demonstrate how to do it, I will use *** to separate your response to my reply.

He wanted to see the evidence himself to believe it.

YOU: "Perfect! “ to believe it”<<<< YOU SAY! And, To NOT believe is, at the very least is to DOUBT "

***

I may have doubts that I will live until I'm seventy, but I want to believe I will. I'm 62, in good health, but I may get hit by a bus tomorrow crossing the road. So there is reasonable evidence to believe I will reach seventy. Thomas did not see reasonable evidence to believe Jesus had risen. He needed confirmation by touching Him and seeing His wounds. Jesus provided that evidence, AND THE LESSON IS that those who have not seen Him yet believe in His resurrection are also blessed. The evidence for His resurrection is reasonable and logical.

John 20:29:

Then Jesus told him, “Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”

#103

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09.22.2018 03:27PM

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@Stephen

Show me somewhere where he denies having faith in Jesus.

YOU: "He had no faith that the lord his god Jesus had risen or it appears, in the resurrection. Yet hadn't this very same man who wanted to "die also" witness the raising of Lazarus by Jesus himself?. Your trying to hard to escape this glaring biblical fact.

25 The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I WILL NOT BELIEVE.. Not believing is to have doubt. No matter how you interpret -not believing."

***

Yes, he doubted the RESURRECTION. Show me He doubted that Jesus was the Messiah.

Thomas had seen Jesus crucified and put to death. How could he believe that a man who had been put to such an excruciating death would be alive and walking around after just three days? He wanted proof that He had risen from the dead by Jesus appearing to him.

Show me where the text states that Thomas doubted Jesus was the Messiah. Where is it stated?

#104

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@Stephen

1 John 2:22

Who is the liar? It is whoever denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a person is the antichrist—denying the Father and the Son.

Jude 1:4

For certain individuals whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.

Matthew 10:33

But whoever denies Me before men, I will also deny him before My Father who is in heaven.

Show me that Thomas denied Jesus was the Christ rather than just doubting His resurrection. When you read of his doubt IN CONTEXT Thomas doubted the resurrection. Show me he denied Jesus.

2 Timothy 2:12

If we endure, we will also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He also will deny us;

John 21:2

Simon Peter, and Thomas called Didymus, and Nathanael of Cana in Galilee, and the sons of Zebedee, and two others of His disciples were together.

#105

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09.22.2018 03:48PM

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@Stephen

He did not have faith that Jesus rose from the dead.

YOU: "To not have faith is to DOUBT. Please stop belaboring the issue. The world knows this particular verse as the story of DOUBTING Thomas, for Christ’s sake!"

***

Doubting what? The RESURRECTION. Not that Jesus was the Messiah.

#106

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09.22.2018 03:52PM

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@PGA2.0

God spoke to human beings who in turn wrote down His words

This is what humans have told you. Good luck. You need evidence.

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#107

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09.22.2018 04:23PM

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@PGA2.0

Yes, he doubted the Resurrection. Show me He doubted that Jesus was the Messiah. Thomas had seen Jesus crucified and put to death.

At least you can admit Thomas doubted, simply because there is no getting away with it. You also need to recognise that Thomas wasn't punished as is my claim. and neither were a few others who had doubted.

Nowhere is there a single piece of evidence that Thomas was present at the crucifixion.. There is nothing at all to suggest this. The scriptures clearly tell us it was by and large a women only affair.

If you insist this was the case, I Want to see a specific verse that states clearly the Thomas the doubter Didymus, was present at the crucifixion. They all had gone into hiding once Jesus was arrested from what I can gather.

And please stop saying I have said something that I haven't said and then asking me to prove something only you say I have said. I don't believe I have mentioned Thomas and messiah in the same sentence. And I certainly haven't said Thomas doubted Jesus was the messiah either.

How could he believe that a man who had been put to such an excruciating death would be alive and walking around after just three days? I know this is why he “doubted” and this is why the story is legendary as the story of Doubting Thomas. He wanted proof that He had risen from the dead by Jesus appearing to him.

Yes, he doubted , but wasn’t punished for it either, was he? and neither were a few other doubters, were they? Including Jesus, who had to be the biggest doubter of all. And this is my claim and my point of raising the issue of the unfairness shown towards Zacharias but not all these other "doubters".

Show me where the text states that Thomas doubted Jesus was the Messiah. Where is it stated?

Read what I wrote slowly and stop putting words into my mouth.

Here is what I wrote>>

He had no faith that the lord his god Jesus had risen or it appears, in the resurrection.

In other words my friend, that is to say, to doubt someone has risen from the dead, would by default be to doubt someone had been resurrected. or had resurrected.

#108

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09.22.2018 06:18PM

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@disgusted

God spoke to human beings who in turn wrote down His words

YOU: "This is what humans have told you. Good luck. You need evidence."

I already gave you an outline of the evidence. Prophecy is one such case in point. Another is the consistency of the 66 books of the Bible in how they relate to one Person - the Lord Jesus Christ, and how they relate to sin and man's alienation from God, plus God's solution to the problem. These are just two thematic pieces of evidence that I could focus upon. I included others, such as making sense of anything when a personal Being is excluded from your beginning presuppositions of origins (i.e., - either chance happenstance or mindful being is responsible for the universe. If you can think of an additional reason why the universe is, other than it is an illusion of the mind, then please list it).

Now if you think the universe is an illusion and you are that mind thinking this, then I think you have other problems and are delusional.

#109

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09.22.2018 06:28PM

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@PGA2.0

Men make all the claims that you claim some invented god claims.

Men make the claims, supply a claim your god made.

Does your god speak to you?

Ask him for a cure for cancer and get back to us with his answer.

#110

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09.22.2018 08:58PM

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@disgusted

YOU: "Men make all the claims that you claim some invented god claims.

Men make the claims, supply a claim your god made."

***

If it is the word of God then one test for authenticity would be if what was prophesied was shown to be true via history. I claim and am willing to show with reason and logic, which I believe you cannot, that this is the case.

Second, even though men wrote, they claimed inspiration from God in recording thousands of times that the Lord said (i.e., - the Lord spoke and said, Jesus said, the Word of the Lord came to him...). Now, you either take that as authoritative or you take some other authority over it. Hebrews 11:6, God tells the reader that they need to believe that He exists and that He is a rewarder of those who believe. If you do not believe that then how will you ever trust anything that the Bible says, no matter how good the evidence (yes, evidence)? If you don't believe in God you will find excuse after excuse to dismiss what is said. But by no means is believing in Him unreasonable or illogical. I defy you to prove it is.

#111

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@disgusted

YOU: "Does your god speak to you?

Ask him for a cure for cancer and get back to us with his answer."

***

Not directly, yet indirectly. God speaks through His word - the biblical revelation. His word is confirmed by history and is most reasonable to believe. His word affects my conscience. His word, when believed, changes my nature from one that is hostile to God to one that loves God.

There is a purpose for cancer. God, in the fall, gave humanity a time frame in which to believe or face the consequences. One of the penalties for sin was death, another was the corruption of the earth. Not everything is good since the fall, yet it can lead to good. Who will you trust when everything is bleak?

#112

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09.22.2018 09:32PM

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@disgusted

YOU: "Does your god speak to you?

When I said God speaks to my conscience I meant that God speaks through His Spirit. Sometimes when a person writes to you, you can detect something about that person through what is written. The Spirit confirms with my spirit that what is said is true. So, if you like there are four witnesses; His Word, His Son (the living Word), His Spirit, and what has been made (the universe).

#113

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09.23.2018 07:40AM

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@PGA2.0

What organs does this spirit use to speak? What is the process that allows speech from the non existent

#114

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@disgusted

What organs does this spirit use to speak? What is the process that allows speech from the

non existent

He uses His mind. He is non-physical in His nature.

Again, your bias is showing. You refuse to allow Him existence in your mind. Thus, with your current mindset, you will never believe in Him.

#115

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09.23.2018 03:42PM

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@Stephen

Yes, he doubted the Resurrection. Show me He doubted that Jesus was the Messiah. Thomas had seen Jesus crucified and put to death.

At least you can admit Thomas doubted, simply because there is no getting away with it. You also need to

recognise that Thomas wasn't punished as is my claim. and neither were a few others who had doubted.

Nowhere is there a single piece of evidence that Thomas was present at the crucifixion.. There is nothing at all to suggest this. The scriptures clearly tell us it was by and large a women only affair.

Finally found out the problem. It was the browser I was using.

It would not allow the Toolbar function.

We are not told of any punishment for Thomas, so what, therefore it is reasonable to believe God was gracious to him, just like Jesus was gracious to Peter in restoring him. Remember Romans 8:1 - There is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

If you insist this was the case, I Want to see a specific verse that states clearly the Thomas the doubter Didymus, was present at the crucifixion. They all had gone into hiding once Jesus was arrested from what I can gather.

Okay, careless wording. Happy? Thomas KNEW of the crucifixion, even if we don't know if he was there physically.

Matthew 26:1-2 When Jesus had finished all these words, He said to His disciples, “You know that after two days the Passover is coming, and the Son of Man is to be handed over for crucifixion.”

#116

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09.23.2018 03:59PM

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@PGA2.0

And you claim that this myth can speak without a larynx. That's not possible and so you must be lying. Explain how your invisible friend SPEAKS.

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#117

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@PGA2.0

We are not told of any punishment for Thomas,

That is correct, because there wasn't any - unless you believe he was "struck dumb" for " doubting" -.And neither was there any punishment towards, Abraham and Sarah, or Jesus who doubted his father and in the case of Abraham and Sarah they laughed, doubted and then she lied about it, and still no punishment.

so what,

in the light of all of these other cases of biblical characters " doubting", do you not see the unfairness of Zacheras' punishment? Do you not see the bias? Do you not see the over reaction to what was a simple enquiry? Do you not see that compared to these other occasions of people doubting, how ridiculous the whole story is?

therefore it is reasonable to believe God was gracious to him,

Yes, That is all you are left with isn't it. You cannot explain away this disgraceful behaviour by god towards his faithful servant Zacharias who was "righteous before his God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord" and was "blameless" in the eyes of his god..

The story is a pack of lies and is beyond doubt, a cover story for something more sinister . Zacharias was told to keep his mouth shut " struck dumb" and his wife was ordered to hide herself away.

And if you knew your scripture better, you would understand that the Old Testament story of Abraham's first born by his Egyptian Servant would 'fit' the story of the Baptist more closely.

#118

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09.23.2018 06:25PM

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@Stephen

Nowhere is there a single piece of evidence that Thomas was present at the

crucifixion.. There is nothing at all to suggest this. The scriptures clearly tell us it was by and large a women only affair.
If you insist this was the case, I Want to see a specific verse that states clearly the Thomas the doubter Didymus, was present at the crucifixion. They all had gone into hiding once Jesus was arrested from what I can gather.

No gospel give that appearance of women only. The underlined above is simply not true. The Scriptures do NOT tell us the crucifixion was, by and large, a woman only affair. It tells us that, "And all His acquaintances and the women who accompanied Him from Galilee were standing at a distance, seeing these things." - Luke 23:49

Mark 15:40 There were also some women looking on from a distance, among whom were Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of [v]James the Less and Joses, and Salome. 41 When He was in Galilee, they used to follow Him and minister to Him; and there were many other women who came up with Him to Jerusalem.

Matthew 27:55 Many women were there looking on from a distance, who had followed Jesus from Galilee while ministering to Him. 56 Among them was Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James and Joseph, and the mother of the sons of Zebedee.

We are told, "

But standing by the cross of Jesus were His mother, and His mother’s sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene. 26

When Jesus then saw His mother, and the disciple whom He loved standing nearby," - John 19:25-26

So, in the vicinity (nearby) of the cross, we know of the women who followed Jesus, and many other women, and the one disciple. We know nothing of the rest of the crowd as to who was there, other than it was a crowd. We also know of "all His acquaintances" were there, whatever that means, which would include many men.

Acts 3:4 But you disowned the Holy and Righteous One and asked for a murderer to be granted to you, 15 but put to death the Prince of life, the one whom God raised from the dead, a fact to which we are witnesses.

We know from this statement in Acts, that the "fact" they are witnessed to is the resurrection, possible both death and resurrection.

We also know that all Jesus' close band of disciples (excluding Judas and Thomas, had witnessed the risen Messiah). Thomas is the only one we are told of as not seeing the RISEN Lord.

And please stop saying I have said something that I haven't said and then asking me to prove something

only you say I have said. I don't believe I have mentioned Thomas and messiah in the same sentence. And I certainly haven't said Thomas doubted Jesus was the messiah either.

That is not the point. The point is that Thomas doubted that Jesus has risen until he saw for himself, but nowhere are we told he doubted that Jesus was the Messiah.

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09.23.2018 06:37PM

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09.23.2018 06:37PM

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@disgusted

And you claim that this myth can speak without a larynx. That's not possible and so you must be lying. Explain how your invisible friend SPEAKS.

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You are taking it all literally. Since God is a spiritual being why would you try to give Him a physical body? Do your thoughts speak to you in the sense that they trigger the words you speak? When you reason in your mind, can you hear your larynx? God reasons, mind to mind. He also used the written word to reason with you. If you do not want to accept that, that is your business. If you want to be what the Bible calls a fool, that is your business.

Psalm 14:1 [ Folly and Wickedness of Men. ] [ For the choir director. A Psalm of David. ] The fool has said in his heart, “There is no God.” They are corrupt, they have committed abominable deeds; There is no one who does good.

Proverbs 1:7 The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge; Fools despise wisdom and instruction.

1 Corinthians 1:20 Where is the wise man? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?

The answer is, Yes!

I see your "wisdom" as foolishness.

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