RIP Kobe Bryant

Author: SupaDudz ,

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  • SupaDudz
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    One of the best players of all time behind Jordan. RIP
  • Athias
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    I'm surprised it hasn't received much attention, yet, on the media.
  • WaterPhoenix
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    rip
  • SupaDudz
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    --> @Athias
    His daughter died too. Story getting worse

  • Greyparrot
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    ripper
  • Lunatic
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    --> @Athias
    It's all over the media now
  • SupaDudz
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    --> @Lunatic
    He was a hard worker
  • SupaDudz
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    The mamba mentality is not just for sport, but for everything you do in regard to hard work
  • RationalMadman
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    He wasn't behind Jordan, Jordan has a softer field of opponents to shine among.
  • Athias
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    --> @RationalMadman
    He wasn't behind Jordan
    Correction:

    He wasn't the only one behind Jordan

    Jordan has a softer field of opponents to shine among.
    Not true at all. Most of Jordan's contemporaries were first ballot Hall of Famers. Kobe couldn't have said the same. Not to mention, it took the Lakers another seven years to win a championship after Shaq's departure and Phil Jackson's return. Kobe was an all-time great player--I don't believe his staunchest critics would deny him that, but when compared to Jordan, there really was no comparison other than the optics. Jordan was far more efficient and his play was far more conducive to championship success.

  • RationalMadman
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    --> @Athias
    The whole reason the OGs made HoF easier is their field was softer.
  • SupaDudz
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    --> @RationalMadman
    I think he has a point with. While Jordan did have Scottie, he was not as dominant as Shaq, and Shaq helped him. The last 2 were all Kobe though without a doubt



  • Athias
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    --> @RationalMadman
    The whole reason the OGs made HoF easier is their field was softer.
    Far from the truth. While the 2000's did mark an increase in overall defense, that is by no means tacit information of the 80's and 90's "softness." The OG's made the HoF because they were efficient players who contributed to their teams' successes. Kobe Bryant, for example, admitted in his one on one with Shaq that he was the primary reason the Lakers lost the 2004 Finals against the Detroit Pistons. Shaq would confirm that, and so would Chauncey Billups. And you want to mention underwhelming competition: who did the Lakers face during their three-peat? The Indiana Pacers; The New Jersey Nets; the Philadelphia 76ers?

    Kobe was a great basketball player. And let's remind ourselves that we're discussing among a select few of thousands of players who entered and left the NBA. So to have him, for example, in a top-10 list speaks to his merit. But to put him over Michael Jordan is one thing I cannot give merit. There are only four other players who can compete with Jordan in my opinion, and they happen to be in my top-5 all time list: Kareem Abdul Jabar, Magic Johnson, Larry Bird, and Bill Russell. They are, in my opinion, in a league of their own.

  • Athias
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    --> @SupaDudz
    I think he has a point with. While Jordan did have Scottie, he was not as dominant as Shaq, and Shaq helped him. The last 2 were all Kobe though without a doubt
    Shaq didn't just "help" him. Shaq led the Lakers. And despite his intelligence--Kobe's that is--he had too much "I wanna be like Mike"-itis. Back then, he didn't understand the cerebral nature of team-basketball. And I agree, with the 2009, and 2010 Finals, Kobe was deserving because he matured as a player. Despite my criticisms, I enjoyed Kobe's career as a player: he entered the league as a boy, and he left it as a man (and no, this is not a reference to his age.) That last year, I count as a mulligan.
  • SupaDudz
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    --> @Athias
    My top 5

    1. Jordan
    2. LeBron (his atheticism is something the league has never seen)
    3. Kareem
    4. Kobe
    5. Wilt
  • Athias
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    --> @SupaDudz
    1. Jordan
    2. LeBron (his atheticism is something the league has never seen)
    3. Kareem
    4. Kobe
    5. Wilt
    Let me ask: why has LeBron leapfrogged to a #2 spot? I understand that he's freakishly atheltic, but so was Bill Russell, Wilt Chamberlain, and Karl Malone. Isiah Thomas and Allen Iverson were freakishly athletic small guards, as well. I know the common narrative is that LeBron is the second best ever, but his resume doesn't speak to that. Why have you chosen Lebron as #2?
  • SupaDudz
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    LeBron does have the rings to show. Here is my reason

    Russell and Wilt played in different areas where a three isn't needed, and being a tall dominant center got you far, in 2010 the three evolved and it is harder to be a dominant big with crazier athletic genes, especially with the development of the modern guard being so hard. He went from a dominant post scorer to a 3 pt and all around scorer, which is extremely hard to do and especially at his age where his stats seem to be as good as they were in his prime. He quickly evolves to the game. If he had the clutch gene, I think he would have a better resume, but he is pretty damn impressive

    In 2019, it was his first time we have not seen Lebron in the playoffs since 09 and in the finals since 11. He has dominated the decade. He also faced the hardest team, the GSW Warriors, he also took them down too, which is impressive.

    AI doesn't have rings and not a great leader. IT was dominated by Jordan when the time came

  • Athias
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    LeBron does have the rings to show. Here is my reason
    Yes, LeBron has the rings to show, but he has twice as many championship losses.

    Russell and Wilt played in different areas where a three isn't needed, and being a tall dominant center got you far
    And Lebron's stature has gotten him far.

    in 2010 the three evolved and it is harder to be a dominant big with crazier athletic genes, especially with the development of the modern guard being so hard. He went from a dominant post scorer to a 3 pt and all around scorer, which is extremely hard to do and especially at his age where his stats seem to be as good as they were in his prime.
    This isn't true at all. LeBron was only a post scorer in 2012 and 2013 seasons (arguably his best seasons.) LeBron has always been a fairly decent three point shooter with his percentage being around 33-37% throughout the seasons. I give credit to LeBron for his longevity, but the transitioning era benefited LeBron as much as it did any guard since it was conducive to his skill set, i.e. perimeter and paint scoring. Remember LeBron didn't have much playoff success until after the 2011 season. His one Finals appearance was against the San Antonio Spurs, where his team got swept.

    He quickly evolves to the game. If he had the clutch gene, I think he would have a better resume, but he is pretty damn impressive
    LeBron hasn't really adapted his game. He plays in the same style he has always played, and that's one where he's the center of the offense. This was reigned in a bit by Pat Riley and Eric Spolstra during his time in Miami. I suspect this is the case because he entered the league straight from high school, where his being the center of the offense was enabled by his high school coach. (This tends to be case with many out of high school superstars a la Kobe Bryant, Kevin Garnett, etc.) He too has never really learned the team aspect of basketball--only briefly in Miami.

    I'll give LeBron James credit this year for being more deferential especially to Anthony Davis, but I suspect this is the case because AD hasn't made any long-term commitment to the Lakers.

    Furthermore, LeBron's clutch gene is underrated. He's not Michael Jordan, but he has proven himself clutch in high leverage moments--most notably Game 6 of the Eastern Conference Finals against the Boston Celtics in 2012.

    In 2019, it was his first time we have not seen Lebron in the playoffs since 09 and in the finals since 11.
    Yes because he left an underwhelming Eastern Conference and couldn't necessarily compete with the top tier teams in the Western Conference with a rebuilt and burgeoning team.

    He has dominated the decade.
    Not really. I mean if we analyze the decade 1 championship went to the Lakers, 1 went to the Dallas Mavericks, 2 went to the Miami Heat, 1 went to the San Antonio Spurs, 1 went to the Golden State Warriors, 1 went to the Cleveland Cavaliers, 2 more went to the Golden State Warriors, and the last one went to the Toronto Raptors. You can argue that LeBron was one of the more prominent players of the decade--I don't think anyone would dispute that. But he definitely did not dominate. He lost more in this decade than he won.

    He also faced the hardest team, the GSW Warriors, he also took them down too, which is impressive.
    The Golden State Warriors of 2016 weren't the hardest team; yes they had the best regular season success, but it's interesting that the NBA media often leaves out that the Cleveland Cavaliers were favored to win that series. The Golden State Warriors went up 3-1 on a team that was initially pegged to beat them. Then a bunch of administrative and regulatory shenanigans, poor decisions, and a string of bad luck--i.e. injuries to their best defensive players as well as a poor shooting performance from their small forward--led to a loss by just a couple of possessions. It took all of that for Cleveland to win by just four points in a Game 7, a series they were initially touted to win.

    Cleveland did win that series, but no all wins are created equal.

    AI doesn't have rings and not a great leader.
    Agreed.

    IT was dominated by Jordan when the time came
    Yes but he and the Pistons also dominated Jordan before that time came. The 89-90 Pistons were a dominant and all-time great team.

    I'm not trying to imply that LeBron isn't an all-time great, I just disagree with this leapfrog to the #2 spot based mostly on narrative. Kareem Abdul Jabar is a 6-time champion, 2-time Finals MVP, 6-time League MVP, 19-time All Star, 4-time NBA Scoring Leader, Rebounding Leader, 4-time Blocks Leader, 10-time All NBA First Team, 5-time All NBA second team, 5-time All Defensive First Team, 6-time All Defensive Second Team, Rookie of the Year, NBA All-time scoring leader, and he led the Milwaukee Bucks to their only championship. Magic Johnson is a 5-time champion, considered to be the best point-guard to play in the NBA, and led his team to the NBA Finals and championship in his rookie year. I can go down my list and list the accomplishments and accolades, and LeBron just doesn't measure up.

    Who knows? LeBron's career isn't over. Despite being past his prime, he may have a few good years left to carve out some runs that'll have me reevaluate his standing in the all-time greats list. But as of now, #2, no. Honestly, I don't even believe he merits a position in the top 10. I would put in no particular order, Tim Duncan, Kobe, Hakeem, Shaq, and the 10 spot is a bit loose as LeBron's contemporaries can compete just as much for that spot as he could, that being Kevin Durant, Stephen Curry, and Kawhi Leonard. But for now, I'll let it remain with Isiah Thomas.








  • Dr.Franklin
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    my boy kareen-abdul-jabaar still number 1, ayyyyyy
  • Pinkfreud08
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    ... F!

  • SupaDudz
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    LeBron does have the rings to show. Here is my reason
    Yes, LeBron has the rings to show, but he has twice as many championship losses.
    Twice as hard competition. He had to go against Tim Duncan, Dirk Nowitzki, Curry, Durant, and many others as well who are extremely talent and hall of famers. Kobe had very relatively easier opponents. The 76ers, the Nets, and a weak team, and when faced against a good Pistons team, bam, L. Then he struggled, and then he proved himself, legit winning 2 ships by himself

    Russell and Wilt played in different areas where a three isn't needed, and being a tall dominant center got you far
    And Lebron's stature has gotten him far.
    Exactly

    in 2010 the three evolved and it is harder to be a dominant big with crazier athletic genes, especially with the development of the modern guard being so hard. He went from a dominant post scorer to a 3 pt and all around scorer, which is extremely hard to do and especially at his age where his stats seem to be as good as they were in his prime.
    This isn't true at all. LeBron was only a post scorer in 2012 and 2013 seasons (arguably his best seasons.) LeBron has always been a fairly decent three point shooter with his percentage being around 33-37% throughout the seasons. I give credit to LeBron for his longevity, but the transitioning era benefited LeBron as much as it did any guard since it was conducive to his skill set, i.e. perimeter and paint scoring. Remember LeBron didn't have much playoff success until after the 2011 season. His one Finals appearance was against the San Antonio Spurs, where his team got swept.

    At the time he did not rely on a three or need to maintain it, but he improved with the shot he takes and got better form while taking more chances. He is still dominant, but he has been better and taken a bit more shots with the free and evolved his game to compete with modern dominant athletes

    He quickly evolves to the game. If he had the clutch gene, I think he would have a better resume, but he is pretty damn impressive
    LeBron hasn't really adapted his game. He plays in the same style he has always played, and that's one where he's the center of the offense. This was reigned in a bit by Pat Riley and Eric Spolstra during his time in Miami. I suspect this is the case because he entered the league straight from high school, where his being the center of the offense was enabled by his high school coach. (This tends to be case with many out of high school superstars a la Kobe Bryant, Kevin Garnett, etc.) He too has never really learned the team aspect of basketball--only briefly in Miami.
    Fair enough, but that is simply a pattern
    I'll give LeBron James credit this year for being more deferential especially to Anthony Davis, but I suspect this is the case because AD hasn't made any long-term commitment to the Lakers.

    Furthermore, LeBron's clutch gene is underrated. He's not Michael Jordan, but he has proven himself clutch in high leverage moments--most notably Game 6 of the Eastern Conference Finals against the Boston Celtics in 2012.

    In 2019, it was his first time we have not seen Lebron in the playoffs since 09 and in the finals since 11.
    Yes because he left an underwhelming Eastern Conference and couldn't necessarily compete with the top tier teams in the Western Conference with a rebuilt and burgeoning team.

    Yea but he did in 2018-2019 with an underwhelming Cavs team, which means he can do it, but it is a hard division

    He has dominated the decade.
    Not really. I mean if we analyze the decade 1 championship went to the Lakers, 1 went to the Dallas Mavericks, 2 went to the Miami Heat, 1 went to the San Antonio Spurs, 1 went to the Golden State Warriors, 1 went to the Cleveland Cavaliers, 2 more went to the Golden State Warriors, and the last one went to the Toronto Raptors. You can argue that LeBron was one of the more prominent players of the decade--I don't think anyone would dispute that. But he definitely did not dominate. He lost more in this decade than he won.
    But look at finals appearance, basically all of the decade. He took out the 73-9 Warriors and did a lot of damage, and he competed with some of the greats and did his jobs. It was Dirk's destiny to him

    He also faced the hardest team, the GSW Warriors, he also took them down too, which is impressive.
    The Golden State Warriors of 2016 weren't the hardest team; yes they had the best regular season success, but it's interesting that the NBA media often leaves out that the Cleveland Cavaliers were favored to win that series. The Golden State Warriors went up 3-1 on a team that was initially pegged to beat them. Then a bunch of administrative and regulatory shenanigans, poor decisions, and a string of bad luck--i.e. injuries to their best defensive players as well as a poor shooting performance from their small forward--led to a loss by just a couple of possessions. It took all of that for Cleveland to win by just four points in a Game 7, a series they were initially touted to win.

    Cleveland did win that series, but no all wins are created equal.

    AI doesn't have rings and not a great leader.
    Agreed.

    IT was dominated by Jordan when the time came
    Yes but he and the Pistons also dominated Jordan before that time came. The 89-90 Pistons were a dominant and all-time great team.

    I'm not trying to imply that LeBron isn't an all-time great, I just disagree with this leapfrog to the #2 spot based mostly on narrative. Kareem Abdul Jabar is a 6-time champion, 2-time Finals MVP, 6-time League MVP, 19-time All Star, 4-time NBA Scoring Leader, Rebounding Leader, 4-time Blocks Leader, 10-time All NBA First Team, 5-time All NBA second team, 5-time All Defensive First Team, 6-time All Defensive Second Team, Rookie of the Year, NBA All-time scoring leader, and he led the Milwaukee Bucks to their only championship. Magic Johnson is a 5-time champion, considered to be the best point-guard to play in the NBA, and led his team to the NBA Finals and championship in his rookie year. I can go down my list and list the accomplishments and accolades, and LeBron just doesn't measure up.

    Who knows? LeBron's career isn't over. Despite being past his prime, he may have a few good years left to carve out some runs that'll have me reevaluate his standing in the all-time greats list. But as of now, #2, no. Honestly, I don't even believe he merits a position in the top 10. I would put in no particular order, Tim Duncan, Kobe, Hakeem, Shaq, and the 10 spot is a bit loose as LeBron's contemporaries can compete just as much for that spot as he could, that being Kevin Durant, Stephen Curry, and Kawhi Leonard. But for now, I'll let it remain with Isiah Thomas.


  • Athias
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    Twice as hard competition. He had to go against Tim Duncan, Dirk Nowitzki, Curry, Durant, and many others as well who are extremely talent and hall of famers. Kobe had very relatively easier opponents. The 76ers, the Nets, and a weak team, and when faced against a good Pistons team, bam, L. Then he struggled, and then he proved himself, legit winning 2 ships by himself
    No player can choose their contemporaries. Kobe wasn't responsible for the level of his competition. And if LeBron is facing great contemporaries--Tim Duncan (2-1 vs Lebron) Nowitzki (1-0 vs LeBron) Curry (3-1 vs LeBron) and Durant (2-1 vs LeBron)--and hasn't bested them, then what does that say about LeBron in the context of all time greats? He doesn't get excused because of the talent of his competition; he's responsible for not overcoming that competition. He argues that he's the best player in the NBA, and even argued that he was the best player of all-time (on "The Shop") but he hasn't bested his contemporaries. Two of his championship series went to game sevens where his team winning happened, and I'm being charitable, under "extraordinary" circumstances. I give him full credit for his first chip in 2012. Despite playing a very young OKC team in 2012, he was dominant.

    At the time he did not rely on a three or need to maintain it, but he improved with the shot he takes and got better form while taking more chances. He is still dominant, but he has been better and taken a bit more shots with the free and evolved his game to compete with modern dominant athletes
    That was more a product of the NBA environment. He wasn't taking that many threes because the league didn't demand that many threes be taken. Now, credit to LeBron for increasing his volume shooting while maintaining his percentage. But his skill set has always been paint scoring and perimeter shooting. And this post-modern era of the NBA is conducive to that skill set as much as any guard. He's a small forward on paper, but he plays like a guard.

    Yea but he did in 2018-2019 with an underwhelming Cavs team, which means he can do it, but it is a hard division
    You mean 2017-2018. And that wasn't an underwhelming Cavs team. LeBron had his pick of the litter among the Eastern Conference: Isiah Thomas, Dwayne Wade, Derrick Rose, Jae Crowder, Deron Williams, etc. He was the one who demanded their purge for the young Lakers stars, which was just a circumvent of protocol to unload cap space for when LeBron would eventually join their ranks--and he already knew even then that he was done with Cleveland.

    But look at finals appearance, basically all of the decade. He took out the 73-9 Warriors and did a lot of damage.
    Did he really take them out? Think about it, did the Cavs "win" or did the Warriors "lose"? That win in 2016 happened under extraordinary circumstances. Steph Curry sustained a knee injury earlier in the playoffs; Draymond Green instigated an unprecedented post game suspension in the Finals; Andre Iguodala complains of back spasms missing games 5 and 6; Andrew Bogut their starting center and rim protector suffers a season ending injury in Game 6. And even then, it took the Cavaliers extending the series to a Game 7, just to win by only four points. Even the Raptors were able to take advantage of the Warriors injuries in a more decisive fashion, and won in 6 games.

    he competed with some of the greats and did his jobs.
    Did he do his job? Once again, in that decade he lost almost twice as much as he won. Did he contribute to a system that would be conducive to championship success, or did he contribute to inflating his stats in the Finals and feeding a narrative? You said that Iverson was a bad leader. And I agreed. But one could argue using your reasoning that Iverson for example "did his job" in 2001 Finals. But he didn't play in a manner that facilitated other members of his offense. LeBron plays a more sophisticated version of Russel Westbrook's style. LeBron has been more successful because he's a smarter player. But he has failed to maximize his potential. He's gotten by mostly on raw talent. That's great for stats, but no so much championship success. Unlike Curry, Duncan, and even Jordan who learned how to play in a real system, first starting in college and then the NBA, LeBron mostly ingratiates his teammates in his high school system and hoping that the narrative will inform his legacy more than his success.