Minimum Wage - Good or Bad?

Author: DynamicSquid ,

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  • DynamicSquid
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    DynamicSquid
    Before I watched this video, I was a normal person, and I thought the minimum wage was a good thing. However, I watched a podcast on JRE, and here'a clip of a specific section that caught my eye:


    Now I'm kinda sitting on the fence. I'm trying to do my own research on this topic to learn more about it. What do you guys think?

    Oh, and Peter Schiff - he's a leading economist that's in the top 1%, and was the few who predicted the 2008 stock market crash.
  • TheDredPriateRoberts
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    --> @DynamicSquid
    that is really hard to argue against, I know I can't
  • Athias
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    --> @DynamicSquid
    You ought to read over a debate I had on the subject: Minimum Wage Is Beneficial to the Poor.

    Peter Schiff stumbles over his words a bit--though it's to be expected given the format of their discussion--but he's put forth many of the arguments I've put forth in the past. One who has an appreciation for Economics, not as a politicized talking point, but as a discipline, would understand that the minimum wage is counterproductive.
  • bmdrocks21
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    --> @DynamicSquid
    It just ends up raising the cost of living and preventing people with little experience (such as poor people and teenagers) from getting a job. Hours may need cut as well.

    I think that a national minimum wage is an incredibly stupid idea. If you want to have a minimum wage because of "cost of living or whatever" then it should be based on your city. Just because it may take $15 an hour to live in Sacramento doesn't mean it takes that much in Indiana's towns, where the CoL is much lower. It unnecessarily destroys jobs, especially those in restaurants where the profit margins are already paper thin.

  • DynamicSquid
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    --> @bmdrocks21
    Interesting point - minimum wage should be local

    I thought they had that in America? They do in Canada
  • bmdrocks21
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    --> @DynamicSquid
    There are some cities that do that, like Seattle and a couple Californian cities. A couple states also have higher minimum wage. However, Democrats are pushing for $15/hour national minimum wage. I don’t want that. I wouldn’t want to have one in my city, or if I did, it would be very low. Some cities should be allowed to pass them if they want them, but don’t force unemployment on my state.

    My point is that, if you have a minimum wage, it should be as localized as possible.
  • DynamicSquid
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    --> @bmdrocks21
    agreed
  • Greyparrot
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    --> @DynamicSquid
    Minimum wage is price fixing. 

    We know historically what happens when we fix prices on things like gasoline and rent. The supply drops as people have little incentive to supply gasoline for little profit or create new housing for little profit.

    With the minimum wage, the supply of jobs drops.

    It's being observed right now in cities and states with a high minimum wage. If the jobs themselves are not disappearing, the job HOURS most certainly are.

    Price fixing doesn't provide gasoline to the poor.
    Rent control does not supply housing to the poor.

    Minimum wage does not supply 40 hours worth of a job to the poor.
  • DynamicSquid
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    --> @Greyparrot
    What about the people that will get paid less because of minimum wage?
  • Greyparrot
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    --> @bmdrocks21
    It's so crazy what is going on in California. Right now there is a growing exodus of people fleeing to Texas. California is predicted to losing a congressional seat and an electoral college vote to Texas.

    The pressures on the economy from a growing minimum wage makes job growth and job creation very difficult.

    California lawmakers have said they had to raise the minimum wage to fix the problem of no new affordable housing, a problem itself created with rent controls, insane regulations, and unyielding zoning restrictions.

    On top of ALL that, California lawmakers in their infinite wisdom have recently outlawed contract workers. The next 4 years are going to be so sad for Californians.

  • Greyparrot
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    --> @DynamicSquid
    The jobs will simply not be there to discuss.
  • bmdrocks21
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    --> @Greyparrot
    Well the issue is that a lot of the idiots leaving California go to Utah and Texas and then vote for the same garbage programs that made them leave in the first place.

    But yes, I have found that generally, Democrats create the problems "they need to solve". Not enough jobs? Create government jobs! As you mentioned, rent control and terrible zoning (I think buildings can't be over 3 stories in some areas) creates huge shortages of housing. Help the homeless by giving them money and others with subsidized housing. Discriminate against minorities for hundreds of years, now give them affirmative action. Honestly, it pisses me off a bit.

    Homeless Crisis Stossel vid: https://youtu.be/yiXjiJ5GSoM
  • bmdrocks21
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    --> @Greyparrot
    As you will see, 15 of the top 16 highest cost of living states/District of Columbia almost always vote democrat.

  • Grandmaster12
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    MInimum  wage by itself will cause problems. If however you protect job providers at home from unfair compatition from abroad, and  you are carefull to only raise minimum wage in sectors where job providers still maintain a decent margin then minimum wage can work well. Across the board mimimum wage without protection will be a disaster. 
  • Alec
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    As someone who has worked a minimum wage job, I think the minimum wage should be abolished.  Low income people who are adults should get a better paying job if they aren't satisfied with their current salary.  In my situation, I can't work many jobs because of minor working laws that the left wanted to impose.

    Currently, you have to be 18 to work any job at any hourly rate.  If POTUS, I'd push that down to 15 years if they work in the summer and I'd allow children to work in some jobs.  Do I want kids doing dangerous jobs?  No, but I'd be fine with a 9 year old being a cashier or some safe job.  Why not?
  • TheDredPriateRoberts
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    My state is considering and will probably raise minimum to $15 within 5 years.

    What I don't understand is how this makes sense, at all.
    Let's say I make $14.50 (double minimum)  There is no way in hell and employer will raise that wage to $30.
    If someone currently makes double minimum they have a certain level of buying power, more than someone who is making minimum.  When the wages go up, again I just can't fathom why it wouldn't happen, prices will increase faster than they would otherwise.  Does anyone really think businesses will just eat the extra costs?  My employer also has tiers for insurance, if you make over $25/hr you go up to the next tier and pay more per month.

    I don't pretend to know a lot about economics.  but what I do know, all that matters is what you have to spend, your actual take home pay.

    How much more would  person take home if they made $15 instead of minimum?  I'm not considering their hours will probably be cut if they aren't totally without a job, but just looking at the numbers on a monthly basis.  Whatever government handout they may qualify for now might be impacted by that increase as well, would they really be better off then?

    I just don't get it.

  • dustryder
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    --> @TheDredPriateRoberts
    Let's say I make $14.50 (double minimum)  There is no way in hell and employer will raise that wage to $30.
    What do you mean by double minimum? If you're working one job and currently earning double the minimum wage, that wage will be bumped to the minimum threshold of $15, not doubled again to $30
  • TheDredPriateRoberts
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    --> @dustryder
    well, 7.25 x 2 = 14.50 so I rounded it up for the mathematically challenged, but I'll be specific.

    because I make 14.50 I can buy x# more widgets than someone making 7.25

    wage is increased to 15 as is the cost of the widgets due to increase business costs with increased wages.

    so now all the reasons I made double minimum and my buying power are gone, diminished from what it was because there is no way I will get an increase just because the minimum got increased to keep me at the buying power I had.

    are you familiar with a bell curve or grading on a curve, there has to be and will always be a bottom, this type of increase just puts more people at the bottom.

172 days later

  • Trent0405
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    I think the minimum wage should be below $15 an hour for sure, but it should probably exist. The data suggests that it actually decreases earnings for minimum wage workers . But, it doesn't lower employment like many believe.  Are there any studies that disagree?????
  • christopher_best
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    I've argued against this before, but I am sort of coming around on the removing of the minimum wage. I need to do more research but the libertarian arguments are appealing
  • Athias
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    --> @Trent0405
    I think the minimum wage should be below $15 an hour for sure, but it should probably exist. The data suggests that it actually decreases earnings for minimum wage workers . But, it doesn't lower employment like many believe.  Are there any studies that disagree?????
    It needs to be understood that there's a distinction between disemployment and unemployment. Disemployment is when one is fired. Unemployment is a broad umbrella term referring to those who don't have a job, can't get a job, or are in between jobs. The minimum wage doesn't necessarily create "disemployment." The minimum wage however does necessarily create unemployment. When a price floor is forced in the labor market, it creates a distortion among those supplying labor, and those demanding labor. So for example, a $15 minimum wage does not mean that everyone will be paid $15. It means that those whose marginal productivity (contribution to production) is worth $14.99 or less are now legally unemployable. To illustrate this with an analogy, let's say I own a nightclub. The government comes in an imposes an age restriction of 25 years and older. Does this mean that every 25 year old and older in the area will now frequent my club? No. It means that those who are 24 years old and younger are now legally prohibited from entering my nightclub. And this produces negative effects. It lowers my revenues. And depending on the elasticity of the product I disseminate, the cost I incur can be extended to said product, making it more expensive to the patrons. The minimum wage has the same effect.
  • ebuc
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    --> @DynamicSquid
    Economics is irrelevant.   Financial value of this or that blows in the wind from nation, to nation, to nation, over time

    Standard-of-living is relevant.  Real wealth is health, ergo  clean air, clean fresh water, clean land and clean oceans from which humans entertain their survival within some sort of shelter from heat, cold and other.

    I’m a Greens-bean, I’m an Eco-nut,
    Living in a forest, In a shell called hut.

    and,

    It’s a planet, That needs a rebirth,
    Come on people, Lets think about the Earth

    because,

    Ecology, Is not just a word,
    It’s the way of life, Or had you heard.

    Recall the golden rule,
    Those who own the gold { resources }, make the rules.

    Let us take 8 billion people and divide that by any numerical value, ex $15.00 per hour.

    = 533,333,333 . 33333333333333333333333