Trump's middle east "peace" plan

Author: HistoryBuff

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ethang5
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@HistoryBuff
the reason I had blocked you was you were consistently going for ad hominem attacks and ignoring what I was saying.
I don't care why you blocked me. Just that if you do, (which is your prerogative) don't post to me. Posting to you is not some prize I seek.

The israeli's have already done everything possible to try to force them to give up.
Oh please. Israel has nuclear weapons. Israel has been the model of tolerance. Israel has not yet even approached what it is possible for them to do.

You need to make them want peace. The only way to do that is to offer a deal that they want to accept.
The only deal they will accept is one that validates the lie that Israel is theirs.

If Israel insists that they won't give up anything, then the conflict will continue. 
It will end when Israel makes them understand that continued fighting is indistinguishable from death.

If they won't see reason, the rest of the world should apply pressure to them until they do.
And I say, if the Palestinians won't see reason, Israel should apply pressure to them until they do. Why should Israel give up their land?

this is a fundamental misunderstanding of human nature. 
Interesting, as I find misunderstanding  human nature is the main failing of liberalism. Pointed succinctly (as usual) by GP above.
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@ethang5
Oh please. Israel has nuclear weapons
officially, no they do not. Unofficially, maybe. If they ever used them on palestine it would be the end of them. Both because the radiation would splash back on them and also because the entire world would turn on them in a heartbeat. 

Israel has been the model of tolerance. Israel has not yet even approached what it is possible for them to do.
Bombing them, starving them, keeping out medicine and other necesary supplies. Keeping them in the worlds biggest open air prison. What else, short of genocide, could they possibly do?

The only deal they will accept is one that validates the lie that Israel is theirs.
how would you know? No one has tried a real negotiation in decades. 

It will end when Israel makes them understand that continued fighting is indistinguishable from death.
giving in to israel would basically be to give up any hope of ever attaining independence or rights under international law. They literally have no option but to fight. 

And I say, if the Palestinians won't see reason, Israel should apply pressure to them until they do.
They have been, for decades. And the world has sat back and let it happen. It hasn't worked. It will never work. The only thing left to do is to force Israel to actually negotiate in good faith. 

Why should Israel give up their land?
no one is asking israel to give up their land. They are asking them to return to their land and stop occupying palestinian land. 


Interesting, as I find misunderstanding  human nature is the main failing of liberalism. Pointed succinctly (as usual) by GP above.
anyone who thinks that you can force a population to submit to your rule by fear is clearly someone who has not paid much attention to modern history. It simply doesn't work. If it did, the world would still be ruled by empires. 
Greyparrot
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@HistoryBuff
anyone who thinks that you can force a population to submit to your rule by fear is clearly someone who has not paid much attention to modern history.

Clearly you have not been paying attention to modern MSM as the fear of Russia, Russia, Russia, and the various flavors of Orangemanbad are used to attempt to force the population into submission.


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@HistoryBuff
no one is asking Israel to give up their land. They are asking them to return to their land and stop occupying Palestinian land. 

Except an unlimited right to return is a de-facto occupation of all of Israel's land by Palestine and the end of Israel as a nation, so there's that.

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@Greyparrot
Except an unlimited right to return is a de-facto occupation of all of Israel's land by Palestine and the end of Israel as a nation, so there's that.

They’re not going to commit to peace stop till Israel is gone, it’s pretty simple.
ethang5
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@HistoryBuff
As long as Palestinians run on the lie that any of Israel is theirs, Israel will never capitulate.

This is the same sort of lie going on in Africa and Afghanistan that the UN validates. Some ragtag strongman kills enough people and thus gets a "right" to co-govern with the real elected officials.

Where did this insanity come from that Israel was for Palestinians? Is it any wonder that both the Libs in Britain and the Dems in the US are riddled with anti-semites?

Does any country on Earth have a longer and clearer history of connection to its land than Israel?

Here is the fact.
We know history. Israel was once owned by Israelis. This is a fact.

When did Israel lose it's land? When did he land become the property of Palestinians? And why did it switch ownership?

Palestinians are from Jordan. None of Israel belongs to them. They are walled into an open air prison because they behaved like criminals, bombing and killing innocents. 

Israel does not starve them of resources, they take their meager resources and waste them on armaments. They starve themselves.

The PLO and Hama's know they stay in power only as long as their people remain bitter angry and ignorant. They do not want peace. Break that cycle of indoctrinating kids to become murderous "myrters" and this silliness will peter out.

The difference can be seen in their societies. One is a free and open democracy, the other is a den of blood lusting zealots.
HistoryBuff
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@Greyparrot
Clearly you have not been paying attention to modern MSM as the fear of Russia, Russia, Russia, and the various flavors of Orangemanbad are used to attempt to force the population into submission.
lol, trump has proven ties to the russians as well as other authoritarian regimes. He is proven to have used his power to influence other governments to do things to personally benefit himself. He has brought america to brink of war only to stop at the last second. There are very, very good reasons to be concerned about Trump. 

Except an unlimited right to return is a de-facto occupation of all of Israel's land by Palestine and the end of Israel as a nation, so there's that.
that is a different issue to the one we were discussing. I agree that would be a tricky thing to iron out. 
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@ethang5
As long as Palestinians run on the lie that any of Israel is theirs, Israel will never capitulate.
you haven't proven that this would be their position. It is in fact impossible to prove that because no one has tried to negotiate in good faith with them for decades. 

This is the same sort of lie going on in Africa and Afghanistan that the UN validates. Some ragtag strongman kills enough people and thus gets a "right" to co-govern with the real elected officials.
this doesn't even make sense.

Where did this insanity come from that Israel was for Palestinians? Is it any wonder that both the Libs in Britain and the Dems in the US are riddled with anti-semites?
lol the palestinians lived there long before the Israeli's came. The israeli's managed to establish their country. They then went on to steal a bunch more land later. It is that extra stolen land I am discussing, not the land that actually makes up the country of Israel.

Does any country on Earth have a longer and clearer history of connection to its land than Israel?
virtually all of them. Israel has only existed a few decades. for centuries, if not millennia, before that the jewish population in the region was negligible. By this logic to the Itallians have the right to own all of Europe because the romans lived there 2,000 years ago? It is a silly argument. 

When did Israel lose it's land? When did he land become the property of Palestinians? And why did it switch ownership?
What do you mean, what land did Israel ever lose? The country came into existence in the 1940's. Since then it has taken more land. 

Palestinians are from Jordan. None of Israel belongs to them. They are walled into an open air prison because they behaved like criminals, bombing and killing innocents. 
they lived there. Israel attacked them and took their land. No treaty ever granted that land to israel. It is extremely clear that the land still belongs to the Palestinians. 

Israel does not starve them of resources, they take their meager resources and waste them on armaments. They starve themselves.
you are aware that Israel blockades the palestinians right? Israel is literally starving them of resources. 


Greyparrot
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lol, trump has proven ties to the russians as well as other authoritarian regimes. He is proven to have used his power to influence other governments to do things to personally benefit himself. He has brought america to brink of war only to stop at the last second. There are very, very good reasons to be concerned about Trump. 

So what? It's just more fear tactics to control the population, or do you think Trump supporters have nothing to lose like Palestine?
HistoryBuff
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@Greyparrot
So what? It's just more fear tactics to control the population, or do you think Trump supporters have nothing to lose like Palestine?
what do you mean so what? He is an incredibly corrupt politician willing to use the levers of power to profit himself even if it undercuts america or democracy itself. He is also really dumb and could start a war with a tweet at any moment. 

Trump supporters have lots to lose, sadly by supporting trump they are losing right now along with everyone else. They just refuse to see it. 
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@HistoryBuff
He is an incredibly corrupt politician willing to use the levers of power to profit himself even if it undercuts America or democracy

there is only one party at the moment jailing or impeaching their political rivals.

ethang5
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@HistoryBuff
no one has tried to negotiate in good faith with them for decades. 
That is ridiculous on its face. So many countries have tried. All of them were of bad faith?

lol the palestinians lived there long before the Israeli's came.
Came from where? The country is called Israel, the people are Israeli. Coincidence? What nationality was David? Who lived there 6,000 years ago?

Israel has only existed a few decades.
Yet we have documentation of Israel from 6,000 years ago. What country is called Palestine?

By this logic to the Itallians have the right to own all of Europe because the romans lived there 2,000 years ago?
If they were still there contesting the land yes. The Israeli have always been in Israel. Unlike the Romans, who invaded and conquered Europe.

The country came into existence in the 1940's.
Then how come there are ancient documents and artifacts and history of Israel centuries before 1940?

No treaty ever granted that land to israel. It is extremely clear that the land still belongs to the Palestinians. 
Nonsense. What treaty granted Africa to Africans? No one needs a treaty to their own land. Why would Israeli need a treaty to Israel?

you are aware that Israel blockades the palestinians right?
So do their Muslim brothers in Egypt. Do you know why? They are walled into an open air prison because they behaved like criminals, bombing and killing innocents. 
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@ethang5
I think the Dems learned a lot from Putin on how to deal with their political rivals.
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@ethang5
That is ridiculous on its face. So many countries have tried. All of them were of bad faith?
the last significant attempt to negotiate was decades ago. The current plan wasn't even discussed with the Palestinians. They talked the israeli's, agreed with everything they wanted, then announced the plan. That isn't even an attempt at negotiating.

Came from where? The country is called Israel, the people are Israeli. Coincidence? What nationality was David? Who lived there 6,000 years ago?
David is almost certainly a fictional character. They don't tend to have nationalities. 

Yet we have documentation of Israel from 6,000 years ago. What country is called Palestine?
Please prove to me that modern day israeli's the same people who lived there 6,000 years ago. 

If they were still there contesting the land yes. The Israeli have always been in Israel. Unlike the Romans, who invaded and conquered Europe.
This is just straight up a lie. The jewish population in the region was tiny until about 100 years ago when European jews started moving there. 

Then how come there are ancient documents and artifacts and history of Israel centuries before 1940?
a country came into existence in the 1940's and named itself after a country that existed a long time ago. That doesn't mean they are the same people or that they have any right to be there. 

Nonsense. What treaty granted Africa to Africans? No one needs a treaty to their own land. Why would Israeli need a treaty to Israel?
because until the 1940's none of them lived there. They were eurpeans who happened to be jewish and decided they wanted their own country. 

So do their Muslim brothers in Egypt. Do you know why? They are walled into an open air prison because they behaved like criminals, bombing and killing innocents. 
they are walled into an open air prison because the Israeli's are trying to starve them and abuse them into submitting to their demands. Of course they are going to fight back against that. If you were being starved and blockaded by a hostile people you would fight back too. 
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@ethang5
So do their Muslim brothers in Egypt. Do you know why? They are walled into an open air prison because they behaved like criminals, bombing and killing innocents. 

Palestinians are considered beneath cockroaches to their Arabian neighbors. Nothing more than useful idiot attack dogs.

ethang5
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@HistoryBuff
That isn't even an attempt at negotiating.
We found you can't negotiate with terrorists.

Please prove to me that modern day israeli's the same people who lived there 6,000 years ago.
People do not live 6,000 years HB.

Who lived there 6,000 years ago? I'll answer for you, since you seem shy. Israelis.

David is almost certainly a fictional character.
Is Jericho a fictional city?

The jewish population in the region was tiny until about 100 years ago...
So what? Will the Japanese lose Japan when their population reaches a certain number? 

That doesn't mean they are the same people or that they have any right to be there. 
So European Jews just picked Israel out of a hat as their ancestral land? Are you daft?

because until the 1940's none of them lived there.
Both untrue and irrelevant. Jews have always existed in Israel.

They were eurpeans who happened to be jewish...
Lol!! "Happened" by chance? If they were Jews genius......

...and decided they wanted their own country
back.

Corrected for ya. And there were Jews there in Israel too.

they are walled into an open air prison because the Israeli's are trying to starve them and abuse them into submitting to their demands.
Right, it has nothing to do with them being bloody terrorists.

If you were being starved and blockaded by a hostile people you would fight back too.
I would never put bombs in grade schools or rain down missiles on innocents, or murder 50 of my own people to get a single enemy soldier.
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@ethang5
We found you can't negotiate with terrorists.
The american revolutionaries would have been called terrorists. The french were definitely terrorists in WW2. The jews have definitely acted as terrorists. Don't pretend like terrorism hasn't been used all over the world. The US is still bombing funerals and weddings to this day. 

Saying you won't negotiate with people just means that the conflict will only ensure conflict continues. 

Who lived there 6,000 years ago? I'll answer for you, since you seem shy. Israelis.
True. A group of people who called themselves Israelites lived there thousands of years ago. That doesn't mean that the people who choose to call themselves Israeli's now are the same people. 

Is Jericho a fictional city?
no, that seems entirely unrelated though. 

So what? Will the Japanese lose Japan when their population reaches a certain number? 
if 99% of the people living in Japan were some other ethnicity, then it would no longer be Japan.

So European Jews just picked Israel out of a hat as their ancestral land? Are you daft?
no. They decided to call their new nation the same name as the ancient one for publicity and to lend the state some level of credibility. 

Both untrue and irrelevant. Jews have always existed in Israel.
in tiny, virtually insignificant numbers. The vast majority of what you consider Israeli's moved there since the end of WW 1. They are almost all Jewish people of various ethnic backgrounds that moved there because of European backed zionism. 

Lol!! "Happened" by chance? If they were Jews genius......
I'm saying that they were french, german, italian etc. They were also Jewish. They decided that they wanted to move to Israel to have their own state. 

back.

Corrected for ya. And there were Jews there in Israel too.
You cannot have "back" something you have never had. 

they are walled into an open air prison because the Israeli's are trying to starve them and abuse them into submitting to their demands.
Right, it has nothing to do with them being bloody terrorists.
The US has, and continues, to engage in terrorism. Don't pretend like they are somehow evil for using the same tactics america does. 

I would never put bombs in grade schools or rain down missiles on innocents, or murder 50 of my own people to get a single enemy soldier.
are you aware that america has murdered millions of innocent people? The US government still does this. Why do you feel like they are evil for doing the same thing America did and continues to do?
ethang5
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@HistoryBuff
The american revolutionaries would have been called terrorists.
So what? Hama's calls the United States terrorists. So what? American revolutionaries did not seek out women and children to kill.

Don't pretend like terrorism hasn't been used all over the world.
Terrorism has been used all over the world by terrorists! None of it excuses terrorists or their terror.

The US is still bombing funerals and weddings to this day. 
Right. This is why you liberals are considered loony fringe. With the US, funerals and weddings are incidentals, not the object, as it is with Hama's.

Saying you won't negotiate with people just means that the conflict will only ensure conflict continues.
I said "can't", not won't.

True. A group of people who called themselves Israelites lived there thousands of years ago. That doesn't mean that the people who choose to call themselves Israeli's now are the same people. 
How were they Jews then? You aren't making sense.

That doesn't mean that the people who choose to call themselves Israeli's now are the same people. 
They are the Jewish descendants of Israeli Jews. What else would make them "same" people?

Is Jericho a fictional city?

no, that seems entirely unrelated though. 
Just checking to see if you were going to deny everything from ancient Israel as "fictional", because there is still today a Jericho in the same place. Little harder to deny that line no?

if 99% of the people living in Japan were some other ethnicity, then it would no longer be Japan. 
And when anti-immigration proponents say the same thing, you call them racists! But this is liberal stupidity. No people automatically "lose" their country because their ratio to foreigners gets small.

They decided to call their new nation the same name as the ancient one for publicity and to lend the state some level of credibility. 
So "Atlantis" was taken then? This is laughably untrue. They had a real connection to Israel, and the UN knew this.

in tiny, virtually insignificant numbers.
The numbers make no difference.

The vast majority of what you consider Israeli's moved there since the end of WW 1.
What they themselves and the world considered to be Israelis.

They are almost all Jewish people of various ethnic backgrounds that moved there because of European backed zionism.
How did they get that ethnic background HB?

You cannot have "back" something you have never had.
Then from whence their ethnicity?

The US has, and continues, to engage in terrorism.
Whataboutism does not save your point or defeat mine. The Palestinians are locked up because they are rabid terrorists.

Don't pretend like they are somehow evil for using the same tactics america does. 
It is your allegation that America uses terrorism, not a fact. And even if a fact, does not excuse Palestinians, but simply convicts Americans.

Do you have any clue why everyone in the world would rather live in America than in Palestinian? Even Palestinians?

are you aware that america has murdered millions of innocent people?
So what? Therefore terrorism is moral?

Why do you feel like they are evil for doing the same thing America did and continues to do?
Because America doesn't do the "same thing". Intent matters to morality. Placing a bomb in a school is morally different to hitting a school by accident.

The morality that equates America to Islamic terrorists is so absurd I need no defense against it. You moaned about Palestinians being in an open air prison, they are there because they are unrepentant violent terrorists. What America is or is not has no baring on it.

And morally defending jihadi terrorists and condemning America is as morally bad as terrorism itself.
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@ethang5
This guy is denying the fact that Jews have claim to the land at all just like I said earlier. Anti-Semitic. Jews were there long before the Palestinians and are indigenous to that area.


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Honestly, why the heck does it matter who was there first? That has never been how this works. You conquer land and it becomes yours. It might be considered dickish today to do so, and you might get lots of flack from the international community, but that is how land acquisition works(or buying it, but that’s quite rare).

ethang5
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Honestly, why the heck does it matter who was there first?
Because it's true. The Jews were there first.

You conquer land and it becomes yours.
Got you there too. Though HB fibs when he says the Jews "attacked", we know several countries attacked Israel and got whipped. And Israel reclaimed the land ceded to Palestinians (and Syria and Jordan) that would have stayed with them if they had kept their pea-shooters in their pants.

They have no case here, so resort to violence hoping the world (and Israel) just caves in out of frustration.

You conquer land and it becomes yours.
Or goes back to being yours again.
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@bmdrocks21
Honestly, why the heck does it matter who was there first? That has never been how this works. You conquer land and it becomes yours. It might be considered dickish today to do so, and you might get lots of flack from the international community, but that is how land acquisition works(or buying it, but that’s quite rare).


Exactly, if Americans cared about this jews were there first shit, they would go back to Europe for Native Americans

You take or claim land and you stay there forever. Basic human law 
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@Dr.Franklin
I don't even really like Israel/their leadership, but any land won in defensive wars is 100% theirs and shouldn't be given back.
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@bmdrocks21
In my head I was refferring to America in the Peshmega and Northern Syria when I typed that.