The Problem with Atheists

Author: 3RU7AL

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#121
Goldtop
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@Mopac
Something doesn't have to be known in order to exist. 

Something MUST exist to us before it can be known to exist for us. You can't know of something until you observe it existing in front of you.

While the Moon exists, I've never been there, hence I don't know it. I observe it regularly through my telescopes and can visit museums to see the rocks brought back from there. This is my extent of knowing the Moon.

Have you seen God existing before you? If not, how you do you "know" God exists?

The Ultimate Reality is not known, but it certainly exists
You can't know that. You are therefore telling a lie.
#122
Outplayz
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@3RU7AL
I'd ask you to clearly define your terms "confident" and "intuition" 
It's a good thing to define bc all these words mean the same thing to me basically. Every time i say this is my belief, i believe, i'm confident; what i mean is i believe said opinion more than not. Like a 70/30 thing. 70% on any given matter i say those things to. I will clarify usually when i am over 90% sure of something. But, when i say it simply as i believe this or that... i mean more than not. 

Ok, I'm not challenging your intuition, but my first question would be, "if space-time is infinite, how can we identify space-time and how can anything exist that is not space-time itself?"
Is one region of space-time distinguishable from another region of space-time?  I don't mean to be rhetorical, but I believe the answer is "yes"?
Infinite space-time would be indivisible.
Everything is a part of space time. I believe there are finite events happening on an infinite platform. Actually, i can even concede that space-time is finite but always infinitely expanding. I guess that would make sense too, especially if i add the mind to it... it would still make sense. It goes out as far as the thought, but just like thought it can keep moving forward. But, the whole thing is that i believe space-time is the platform for finite events. 

I believe the answer is yes too. I'm sorta a fictional realist. I believe every reality we can think of exists. The platform being space-time, but everything happening within it could be different. Different laws, molecules, energy, etc. Not going fully into the nerd line of thought, i believe simply there are multi-verses with different laws and such. But space and time i would say is consistent in that it's the platform. 

I don't fully get what you mean by indivisible. It cannot be separated? In that case i would say so what. It needs to be consistent for everything else to happen within it. 

You can't have two infinite things.
I'm not saying there are two infinite things per se. Everything happening within space-time is finite. The only things that would be infinite is the platform, and the mind if we add the metaphysics to it. I guess i would also add energy as well... all the incorporeal stuff could be infinite, not the physical stuff. That's the thing about space and time.... it isn't something physical which is why your sandbox analogy doesn't apply... or i'm just still not getting it lol. 

 You are describing noumenon.
Never heard of this before, i'll look it up. I've noticed my spiritual belief is usually the same as people that do hallucinogens. It's interesting bc most that do this get the feeling of an infinite consciousness. I've always found that interesting since i basically thought up my belief bc i felt it is a logical spiritual belief. Then i started seeing all these high mothertckrs have the same belief lol. 

Got it.  The answer is "magic".

Well, it wouldn't be magic if it just is what it is. An infinite intelligence would explain a lot imho. Plus, this is something that humanity has the potential in creating. It would be no different if we completely made ourselves into robots and downloaded ourselves into whatever reality/simulation we want. The interesting thing is if that is what we are and/or where we come from... then we should have this ability in the future. It would be a prediction made from my spiritual speculations. If we are all from a source that can manifest itself into experiences, then... we should be able to do the same here. It seems, if we continue as innovative as we have been, that is our future. The entire universe could go through heat death and be gone and we'll be floating in empty space as robots downloaded into whatever simulation we want. The future is magic compared to our present. Remember, every 100 years or so, we look back at those humans as primitive. Overall, i think just humanity being real has crazy implications... especially if the platform is infinite. 

I do appreciate your civility and always enjoy reading your posts.
I always enjoy our talks too. You are much more well read than i am. Everything i know i have spent years in thought to come up with. I guess that is cool in its own way that i can get to these deep thoughts by myself... but i'm sure i am missing out on some great works by other people to. I find it cool that you know others that have said similar things... a knowledge i wish i had. 

#123
mustardness
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@3RU7AL
You can't have two infinite things.
Macro-infinite non-occupied space is not two infinite things. 

It is one macro-infinite set.

Finite, occupied space Universe/God is multiple things.

1} physical/energy as  fermionic matter ---spirit-2 ergo Observed Time

2} physical/energy as bosonic forces spirit-2 ergo Observed Time

3} a new discovered additional 3rd catagory,

4} gravity ( ) --metaphyscial-3, spirit-3,

5} dark energy )( --metaphysical-4, and spirit-4



#124
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@Goldtop
Because I know what God means, so I can know that God exists.
If you knew what is meant by God you would know that God exists too.

It is something that everyone has performed all the necessary experimentation to know.



#125
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@Mopac
Because I know what God means, so I can know that God exists.
I know what unicorns and leprechauns mean. So what? They don't exist.

Fairies, pixies, ghosts, goblins are all in the Dictionary. According to you, they all exist.

See how your argument has no validity?


#126
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@Mopac
It is something that everyone has performed all the necessary experimentation to know.
Now, you're just lying again.

If you can't even be honest with yourself, how do expect to be honest with anyone else?

#127
Mopac
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@Goldtop
That isn't my argument.


And by the way, none of these critters which are certainly in the dictionary are defined as being THE ULTIMATE REALITY.

So since I understand what that means, I know that it even by definition exists. If it doesn't exist, it doesn't fulfill the definition.

Since you take God as not existing, you are not respecting the definition. You aren't even talking about the same thing as me.


There is no weapon formed against God that can prosper.
#128
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@Goldtop
All atheist arguments are contingent on defining God to be something other than what God is because even atheists know that arguing  "It is the truth that there is no truth" is stupid and would make them the laughing stock of anyone who has even a modicum of sense.
#129
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That isn't my argument.
Earth to Mopac.... you don't have an argument. You have semantics. Wake up.


#130
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@Goldtop
That's actually all you have. Petulantly arguing against the dictionary like the deranged lunatic you make yourself by persisting this line of argument.
"The dictionary is not an authority when it comes to the defining of terms!"

That is your argument.


#131
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@Mopac
All atheist arguments are contingent on defining God to be something other than what God is
Anyone who says they know what God is... are a bald faced liar.

Is that your legacy?

#132
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@Goldtop
Your accusations are worthless because everyone can plainly see that you are arguing that the dictionary is not as authoritative as you when it comes to the defining of terms.
Your argument is ludicrous.

#133
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@Mopac
"The dictionary is not an authority when it comes to the defining of terms!"

That is your argument.

If you keep lying, no one is going to take you seriously.

The dictionary is a reference book, I've said this time and again.

It is not an authority on anything else, especially the existence of your God.

That is my argument.
#134
EtrnlVw
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@Goldtop
Anyone who says they know what God is... are a bald faced liar.

Yet you know exactly what God is through your direct experience. God can be nothing else but what you portray as consciousness on a mini scale, your first hand experience mimics that which is "God" by nature. Sweet dreams precious little atheist. 


#135
Mopac
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@Goldtop
The dictionary is not an argument for the existence of my God. It establishes that I'm not just making up what I'm saying. It makes clear what exactly it is I am talking about.
The Ultimate Reality is what I acknowledge as my God, and this is not an innovation.

So when I say God I am very specifically talking about this, not the superstitious baggage you attach to the concept of God.

But you immediately reject, which takes about as much thought as someone who immediately believes. None. 


Yet here I am, not withholding anything. I want you to understand, it is not my intention to confuse or mystify you. It is not my intention to condemn you. I am not selling you anything. I have no reason to be deceitful. You accuse me of being a liar, but I can tell you that I believe what I say. You don't have to believe me, but I believe you believe what you say, even if you really are being deceitful. I don't make that judgement call.

So if you could show me a little charity, we might be able to come to an understanding.
#136
Goldtop
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@Mopac
The dictionary is not an argument for the existence of my God.
That's what we keep trying to tell you, but you insist it is.

The Ultimate Reality is what I acknowledge as my God
And you're free to wallow in the belief, good for you.

So when I say God I am very specifically talking about this, not the superstitious baggage you attach to the concept of God
So, you attach your superstitious baggage instead.

But you immediately reject
Your superstitious baggage? Of course.

You accuse me of being a liar, but I can tell you that I believe what I say.
Then, you are delusional.
#137
Goldtop
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@EtrnlVw
Yet you know exactly what God is through your direct experience.


My experiences are with reality, yours are with your delusions.

God can be nothing else but what you portray as consciousness on a mini scale, your first hand experience mimics that which is "God" by nature.
Consciousness is a product of the brain, this is something you keep ignoring, hence your delusions.
#138
Mopac
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@Goldtop
You haven't done anything but reject everything anyone says to you. So what are you putting forward that we should consider?
#139
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@Mopac
You haven't done anything but reject everything anyone says to you. So what are you putting forward that we should consider?

Have you ever considered reality?
#140
Mopac
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@Goldtop
What is reality?
#141
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@Mopac
The world or the state of things as they actually exist, as opposed to an idealistic or notional idea of them.

#142
Mopac
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@Goldtop
That is what I call my God.
#143
Goldtop
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@Mopac
That is what I call my God.

Why would you have to give something that already has a label another label, one that doesn't even follow the definition I provided? Makes no sense.
#144
Mopac
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@Goldtop
Because this is what God means, and your understanding of what God means is wrong.
#145
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@Mopac
Thing is, we both share the exact same reality, nature will behave exactly the same for you as it will for me.

If you call reality "God" or "Ultimate Reality" or whatever label you wish to give it, we both share it and I understand the same as you. I tend to take it steps further and find out what scientists have discovered and learned about it so I can understand what's going on around me.

So, what am I wrong about, exactly?


#146
Mopac
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@Goldtop
If you really wish to be a scientist, you have to practice the science of the self. If you really love The Truth, make it your God. Love it with all your heart, mind, soul, and strength. Instead of believing what others say, or simply rejecting what others say, instead say "I don't know". Honestly examine yourself and think about the things that get in the way of truth. Things that get in the way of you truly being honest. What are your motivations? What are you lead by? What are the attachments you have that distort truth? Are you isolating variables, or are you letting your own lusts get in the way?

So you say you love science. I love science to. I am where I am now because I love science. I was into science long before I found God. I was a very haughty youth, and even very against anything to do with God and religion. I would tear people apart. But then I discovered something. My zeal for The Truth had caused me to persecute those whose entire faith was built around love of The Truth. I made a grave mistake, and I had my road to Damascus moment.

So what I am really trying to tell you is, my religion is Love of The Truth. Sincere faith alone is not enough, it must be coupled with charity.  Sincere faith and charity. You might strongly believe in what you think is reality, but without charity you are going to end up condemning yourself through your condemnation of others. We are really all in the same boat here.

God loves you. Repent and believe The Good News. The Truth is what sets you free.


#147
disgusted
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@Mopac
Rubbish. Gods don't exist, no definition possible or needed. Gods don't exist.
#148
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@disgusted
Yet Reality exists, and whatbdo I worship as my God? Reality in the truest sense.
#149
disgusted
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@Mopac
I keep telling you that in Capital R Reality gods are and always have been created by humans. Sorry to break it to you.
#150
Mopac
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@disgusted

I agree with you, gods are created by humans. I'm not talking about gods, I am talking to God.