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@ILikePie5
The "right side of history" is inevitably rewritten by the cabal of academic elites.
the war on poverty was not a failure
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@HistoryBuff
romneycare passed in in 2006. I think it is you who doesn't know what they are talking about.
Ye my b, I got confused. So a plan that worked in one state should be implemented federally without a single Republican voting. Either way, I don’t think Mitt Romney is a conservative. And by no means was the Bill passed by Hussein was anything like “Romneycare.” Take a look at this article: https://prospect.org/power/no-obamacare-republican-proposal/.
This is exactly my point. The ACA was based on republican healthcare plans, but as soon as Obama proposed slightly modified version of their ideas, they all came out against it. The reason no republicans supported it is they don't actually care about helping people, they just wanted to trash anything obama suggested for political points.
It was based on it. It wasn’t it. There was a crap ton of other shit in that bill lmao. If Romneycare was so good, why didn’t Obama implement that exactly? You act as if Republicans were the ones that resulted in the disaster of Obamacare. It imploded on its own. There’s a reason why no candidate supports it right now. It was a disaster.
this is just getting sad. You said it took away americans ability to choose their healthcare. I explained how it in no way prevented americans from choosing any healthcare they wanted. You then acted like i didn't disprove your point.
I don’t think you understood what I said. Taking away the right to decide whether you need healthcare or not is the decision of the individual, not the government.
I agree, obama wasn't anywhere near aggressive enough. He tried to negotiate with the republicans thinking they would act like reasonable adults and cooperate to create a reasonable plan. Instead they threw tantrums and sabotaged the plan in every single way they could. In the end the plan got watered down so much that it barely functioned. Obama should have put forward a much more aggressive healthcare plan and then shoved it down those bastards throats since they were going to fight literally anything he did anyway.
Negotiation my ass. Not one Republican supported the ACA because it was fundamentally different then Romneycare. But glad to see you support shoving things down people’s throats. Mitch McConnell has entered the chat.
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@Greyparrot
The "right side of history" is inevitably rewritten by the cabal of academic elites.
They act as if people liked Obamacare, when we know it was a disaster. A Republican was elected in Massachusetts because of their attempt to shove it down the throats of Americans without any negotiations.
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@Greyparrot
I love how Democrats were willing to shove Obamacare down our throats but cry foul when Mitch McConnell gets rid of Merrick Garland. Hypocrites.
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@ILikePie5
I think he tried to fix a lot of the issues in this country such as health care and low wages, but ended up messing it up or making it worse.
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@ILikePie5
So a plan that worked in one state should be implemented federally without a single Republican voting. Either way, I don’t think Mitt Romney is a conservative.
Ok, so rather than acknowledge that it was based on a republican plan, you just move the goal posts and try to say a republican isn't republican enough for it to count.
And by no means was the Bill passed by Hussein was anything like “Romneycare.” Take a look at this article: https://prospect.org/power/no-obamacare-republican-proposal/.
1) that article is discussing a comparison of the ACA with the plan by the right wing think tank, not romneycare
2) both Romneycare and the ACA have the same underlying principles. Government funded plans for those who can't afford coverage. Tax penalties for those who don't buy coverage. Here is a link.
Romney care and the ACA do have differences, but they are extremely similar plans. The reason the republicans attacked the ACA but passed romneycare is based on who suggested the idea, not the idea itself.
It was based on it. It wasn’t it. There was a crap ton of other shit in that bill lmao.
And Obama tried for years to negotiate with the republicans about this to create a bipartisan reform. They just attacked it at every chance they got. If they actually had constructive criticism of this republican plan and wanted changes, they could have gotten them. They didn't want to improve the bill, they just wanted to attack obama.
If Romneycare was so good, why didn’t Obama implement that exactly?
1) the two plans are very similar
2) romneycare was designed to work at a state level. There was always going to have to be changes to make it a national policy.
You act as if Republicans were the ones that resulted in the disaster of Obamacare. It imploded on its own.
It did implode, because the republicans sabotaged it. They spent years attacking it and trying to water it down until it was completely unworkable. Obama's mistakes were 1) picking a right wing plan to begin with 2) trying to negotiate with them. He should have rammed a real healthcare plan down their throats.
There’s a reason why no candidate supports it right now. It was a disaster.
Most of the democratic field supports it. They just want to build on it and fix it. It also has significant popular support. That is why the republicans were too afraid to repeal it. They don't have any idea what to replace it with and they know that they would be chased out of office if they repealed it.
I don’t think you understood what I said. Taking away the right to decide whether you need healthcare or not is the decision of the individual, not the government.
This is stupid. As a society we decided that people don't have the right to drive without wearing a seat belt. They don't have the right to drive without car insurance. There are all kinds of ways that we restrict freedom because we know it is in everyone's best interest. There is no good reason to not have health insurance. Everyone needs it. Everyone will get sick or injured at some point. So saying that you should have the "freedom" to be completely screwed over or die is just moronic.
Negotiation my ass. Not one Republican supported the ACA because it was fundamentally different then Romneycare.
Then why didn't they pitch their own plan? No republican has suggested a plan to fix healthcare for decades. Obama came up with a suggestion, based primarily on republican ideas, and they refused to negotiate. They refused to discuss what could be fixed. They just attacked it, lied about it and smeared it in the media. All they cared about was a political victory.
But glad to see you support shoving things down people’s throats. Mitch McConnell has entered the chat.
The republicans in congress have proved they have no interest in working together to improve the american peoples' lives. Their only interest is partisan hackery that will help them win elections. They will sabotage anything the democrats try to accomplish. Under those circumstances, talking to them is not only a waste of time, but it actually gives them more opportunities to sabotage you. Obama should have just told the american people "this is the plan i am going to implement" then completely ignored the republican hacks and passed it. At least then we would have gotten a working plan
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@ILikePie5
I love how Democrats were willing to shove Obamacare down our throats but cry foul when Mitch McConnell gets rid of Merrick Garland. Hypocrites.
merrick garland was a moderate candidate who had been repeatedly praised by republicans. Obama picked him because he was a candidate that everyone could agree on. McConnell refused to even hold hearings because he knew there were no real objections to him and he wanted to prevent Obama from being able to do what he is constitutionally supposed to do. It was a partisan hack thing to do.
Ok, so rather than acknowledge that it was based on a republican plan, you just move the goal posts and try to say a republican isn't republican enough for it to count.
It was based on it. It wasn’t Republican. They put a bunch of stuff in it that clearly didn’t make it work lol.
Romney care and the ACA do have differences, but they are extremely similar plans. The reason the republicans attacked the ACA but passed romneycare is based on who suggested the idea, not the idea itself.
Differences change it up entirely. It wasn’t Romneycare at that point. And clearly it failed. I don’t know why you’re defending a failed plan.
It did implode, because the republicans sabotaged it. They spent years attacking it and trying to water it down until it was completely unworkable. Obama's mistakes were 1) picking a right wing plan to begin with 2) trying to negotiate with them. He should have rammed a real healthcare plan down their throats.
The bill was unchanged till 2017 and it was a disaster until then. See how ramming something down throats worked. They lost in MA.
This is stupid. As a society we decided that people don't have the right to drive without wearing a seat belt. They don't have the right to drive without car insurance. There are all kinds of ways that we restrict freedom because we know it is in everyone's best interest. There is no good reason to not have health insurance. Everyone needs it. Everyone will get sick or injured at some point. So saying that you should have the "freedom" to be completely screwed over or die is just moronic.
That’s irrelevant. This is a matter of my own personal health. If I want to take the risk, why should the government be telling me that I shouldn’t. It’s just like buying a lottery ticket. My health has nothing to do with you nor the govt. There is a good reason: people save money.
Then why didn't they pitch their own plan? No republican has suggested a plan to fix healthcare for decades. Obama came up with a suggestion, based primarily on republican ideas, and they refused to negotiate. They refused to discuss what could be fixed. They just attacked it, lied about it and smeared it in the media. All they cared about was a political victory.
The plan was right there: Romneycare. Not to mention the fact that the GOP was in the minority in both Houses. The minority in case you didn’t know has zero power on what legislation gets a vote. Republicans and taxpayers have been saying for a decade that Obamacare is broken. Your party is the one that refuses to budge threading filibusters every time. The GOP has put up plans for a free market system across state lines to create more competition. Your party refuses to budge. Obama’s “suggestion” passed with zero Republican votes, and how’d that turn out?
The republicans in congress have proved they have no interest in working together to improve the american peoples' lives. Their only interest is partisan hackery that will help them win elections. They will sabotage anything the democrats try to accomplish. Under those circumstances, talking to them is not only a waste of time, but it actually gives them more opportunities to sabotage you. Obama should have just told the american people "this is the plan i am going to implement" then completely ignored the republican hacks and passed it. At least then we would have gotten a working plan
Republicans have eliminated the individual mandate hated by Americans. The Democratic Party of 2008 and of 2020 are drastically different. Republicans have helped the people and that is why they’ve won elections time and time again. And yes, Obama could’ve done that. He did do it to a certain extent? What happened? Democrats got demolished in 2010 statewide and nationwide. Tell me again how Americans liked ACA.
The fact of the matter is: Obamacare was a disaster. He had the chance to pass whatever he wanted. This piece of legislation was “whatever he wanted.” Not one Republican voted for that plan. Obama’s hands are dirty in harming Americans, not the GOP.
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@HistoryBuff
merrick garland was a moderate candidate who had been repeatedly praised by republicans. Obama picked him because he was a candidate that everyone could agree on. McConnell refused to even hold hearings because he knew there were no real objections to him and he wanted to prevent Obama from being able to do what he is constitutionally supposed to do. It was a partisan hack thing to do.
Ya and passing legislation without any GOP vote was a partisan hack thing to do. If y’all can use the Senate rules to your advantage, why can’t we?
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@ILikePie5
Speaking of partisan hackery, how about DACA, for which we had no ability to vote. Abusing executive orders is worse than any blocking McConnell did
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@bmdrocks21
Speaking of partisan hackery, how about DACA, for which we had no ability to vote. Abusing executive orders is worse than any blocking McConnell did
It’s hypocritical on numerous levels. They use the powers they have to do whatever they want, but cry foul when Republicans do it. Like what’d you expect?
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@ILikePie5
You might have mentioned this, I haven’t read it all, but didn’t the Democrats use the nuclear option to make appointments only require a simple majority instead of 60 just to get Obama court picks in?
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@bmdrocks21
You might have mentioned this, I haven’t read it all, but didn’t the Democrats use the nuclear option to make appointments only require a simple majority instead of 60 just to get Obama court picks in?
Yup, Harry Reid, the Democratic Senate Majority Leader until 2014 got rid of the 60 vote requirement for all judges except the ones on the Supreme Court. Even in the Supreme Court, numerous Republicans voted for Elena Kagan and Sonia Sotomayor. Only 3 voted on Gorsuch (Manchin, Heitkamp, and Donnelly). For Brett Kavanaugh only one voted for him (Manchin). Heitkamp was ousted by double digits against Kevin Cramer. Donnelly lost by 6 points to Mike Braun. Joe Manchin survives by 3 points in a D+9 year, most likely due to these votes.
Contrast this with Kagan. 5 Republicans voted with Democrats including Lindsey Graham and Richard Lugar, both in Safe Republicans seats. Go back even further to Sotomayor. 9 Republicans voted for Sotomayor with half being in safe Republican Seats. Tell me who’s more bipartisan.
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@Alec
If the cap fits as they say.
Nonetheless:
What's the point of having loads of excess stuff, including money, that you don't necessarily need or use. When there are fellow human beings that could make good use of your excesses?
Have a go at giving me a pragmatic answer to this question. Rather than just the same old us and them rhetoric.
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@ILikePie5
You view it more important that people get choices in healthcare than people's lives?
If so, why not have a mixed system with allowing people to opt in or out of the plan?
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@HistoryBuff
Really?Unrestricted capitalism is a cause of poverty.
What is the cause of poverty in non-capitalist countries? Was there poverty before there was capitalism?
HB, have you attended university?
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@zedvictor4
What's the point of having loads of excess stuff, including money, that you don't necessarily need or use.
The rich either use the money to either make better products that many Americans enjoy, or they invest in companies that make things that many Americans enjoy. Taxing the rich too much prevents them from investing the money in ways that make them richer by making society a better place to live. If it wasn't for the 1%, we'd be living like the Amish since the 1% made all this technology that we benefit from and continue to do so to this day.
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@ILikePie5
It was based on it. It wasn’t Republican. They put a bunch of stuff in it that clearly didn’t make it work lol.
What specifically? All the sources say that obamacare and romney care had the same core designs. So what exactly was in obamacare that was the problem?
Differences change it up entirely. It wasn’t Romneycare at that point.
what differences?
I don’t know why you’re defending a failed plan.
I'm not. It was a right wing plan that, even if the republicans hadn't sabotaged it, didn't go anywhere near far enough to fix the problems. My point is to show you that the republicans called obama a communist when he was proposing slight modifications of a republican plan. This is why no one under 45 cares about the words socialist or communist any more. The right has removed all meaning from the words and laid the ground work for sanders to win.
The bill was unchanged till 2017 and it was a disaster until then. See how ramming something down throats worked. They lost in MA.
the problem was that he didn't ram it down their throat. He wasted tons of time and energy trying to get them to behave like adults. Meanwhile the republicans did everything they could to sabotage and attack the ACA for political gain. If he had just rammed a progressive medicare plan through without worrying what those hacks thought, he would have been much better off.
That’s irrelevant. This is a matter of my own personal health. If I want to take the risk, why should the government be telling me that I shouldn’t. It’s just like buying a lottery ticket. My health has nothing to do with you nor the govt. There is a good reason: people save money.
except that it very much does. you going bankrupt or dying affects others. You are not an island with no effect on the people around you and society. When you massively screw yourself over with stupidity, society and the people around you suffer too. That is why we banned things like driving without a seatbelt. There is no reason that anyone should do it and it only hurts people.
Republicans have eliminated the individual mandate hated by Americans.
another way of saying that is "republicans sabotaged a core component of the ACA in order to destroy a beloved american program without it looking like it's their fault"
the Democratic Party of 2008 and of 2020 are drastically different.
agreed. In 2008 obama promised changes, then failed to enact them by acting like a moderate republican. Now the people are going to push for someone who will actually carry through on those promises.
Republicans have helped the people and that is why they’ve won elections time and time again
oh, so how is that healthcare reform coming? Oh right, they've done nothing. immigration reform? Oh yeah, they've done nothing. Social policies that help poor and working class people? Oh right, they keep cutting them. Yes they really help the people lol.
Tell me again how Americans liked ACA.
The ACA is quite popular. The reason it wasn't at the beginning was the massive fear mongering by the republicans. Once people got used to it and saw that the republican attacks were baseless, they really liked it. That is why Trump was too afraid to repeal it in his 1st two years like he promised he would.
The fact of the matter is: Obamacare was a disaster. He had the chance to pass whatever he wanted. This piece of legislation was “whatever he wanted.”'
The ACA was an olive branch to the republicans. Obama wanted a bipartisan reform that the republicans could agree to. So he mostly used one of their plans. But they behaved like petty children and attacked their own plan just to spite him.
Ya and passing legislation without any GOP vote was a partisan hack thing to do. If y’all can use the Senate rules to your advantage, why can’t we?
Passing legislation without any GOP votes wasn't a partisan hack thing to do, it was literally the only thing that could happen. The GOP refused to actually discuss what health care reform they wanted. All they wanted to do was attack. Obama's options were pass something without them, or pass nothing and let the situation get worse. He did what any president should do in the face of petulant children trying to hurt the people they were elected to help.
Refusing to hold a hearing violated all previously set norms. No one has ever refused to hold a hearing for a SC pick before. McConnell found a new way to act like a petulant child in order to stop the president from doing his job. He made up a flimsy excuse that he has already acknowledged is a lie.
Obama tried to work across the isle with republicans and they did nothing but attack him for it. The republicans made no attempt to work with Obama.
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@ethang5
What is the cause of poverty in non-capitalist countries? Was there poverty before there was capitalism?
There are lots of reasons. Lack of resources, income inequality etc. In america however, the resources exist to eliminate poverty. The problem is that the economy is designed to perpetuate it. Billionaires profit of it.
HB, have you attended university?
Yes
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@HistoryBuff
If you could run America the way you saw fit, could you eliminate poverty?
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@ethang5
I don't claim to have all the answers. But I do know that allowing the economy to be run by people whose primary goal is to squeeze as much wealth out of it as possible is not good for anyone (except for those tiny number of oligarchs)If you could run America the way you saw fit, could you eliminate poverty?
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@skittlez09
You view it more important that people get choices in healthcare than people's lives?
Why not both? That’s exactly what an open market across state lines does. It lowers competition and allows more people to buy insurance with a smaller budget. Obamacare is a disaster.
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@HistoryBuff
It affects other people when you make us pay for the student loans of people with stupid degrees that they would never be able to get a job with. Their stupidity affects me when I have to pay for the healthcare costs of obese drug addicts under M4A. When I have to pay unemployment benefits and food stamps towards people who refuse to work, I am paying for their stupidity. 9 out of 10 plans Democrats propose involve me paying for someone else’s misfortune or stupidity.When you massively screw yourself over with stupidity, society and the people around you suffer too.
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@ILikePie5
Wouldn't you agree that it would be unwise to point to one failed system to represent every single other universal system?
What about Switzerland or other developed countries which have successful universal systems?
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@HistoryBuff
What specifically? All the sources say that obamacare and romney care had the same core designs. So what exactly was in obamacare that was the problem?
Some differences. Obamacare bill was not the same Romneycare. Various items were different which caused it to be a disaster.
I'm not. It was a right wing plan that, even if the republicans hadn't sabotaged it, didn't go anywhere near far enough to fix the problems. My point is to show you that the republicans called obama a communist when he was proposing slight modifications of a republican plan. This is why no one under 45 cares about the words socialist or communist any more. The right has removed all meaning from the words and laid the ground work for sanders to win.
It wasn’t a right wing plan. That’s just misleading. The bill was corrupted by the Democrats so that it wouldn’t work. And it was a disaster, glad to see that’s you agree. As for Sanders, he’s an avowed socialist. Praised communists. 20% of Democrats have said they wouldn’t vote for him the general election. He’s weak among African Americans in the South. He’s weak among Cubans and Venezuelans.
the problem was that he didn't ram it down their throat. He wasted tons of time and energy trying to get them to behave like adults. Meanwhile the republicans did everything they could to sabotage and attack the ACA for political gain. If he had just rammed a progressive medicare plan through without worrying what those hacks thought, he would have been much better off.
The Democrats did ram it down our throats. 60 votes to invoke cloture and voila. Obama wasn’t a progressive by any means. That legislation would’ve failed anyways. But saying he didn’t ram it down our throats is just false. He used the powers of their Senate and passed it without any GOP votes.
except that it very much does. you going bankrupt or dying affects others. You are not an island with no effect on the people around you and society. When you massively screw yourself over with stupidity, society and the people around you suffer too. That is why we banned things like driving without a seatbelt. There is no reason that anyone should do it and it only hurts people.
My actions affect what I do. If I decide to be an alcoholic, be a gambler, smoke cigarettes, I’m screwing myself over. Does this mean other people get screwed over? Sure. But it’s my right to screw myself over, just like it’s my right to take my life whenever I want to. Why haven’t we banned cigarettes? We banned alcohol and it didn’t work out so well. So the street works two ways: we have both available.
another way of saying that is "republicans sabotaged a core component of the ACA in order to destroy a beloved american program without it looking like it's their fault"
It was hated by a lot of people. A core reason why Hillary Clinton lost and Obama suffered in 2010.
agreed. In 2008 obama promised changes, then failed to enact them by acting like a moderate republican. Now the people are going to push for someone who will actually carry through on those promises.
The point was the GOP in 2008 is not the GOP now. But any “change” that you support will not happen unless Democrats take 60 seats or they take the Senate and eliminate the filibuster and shove it down our throats again. I highly doubt the Democratic caucus will support this though.
oh, so how is that healthcare reform coming? Oh right, they've done nothing. immigration reform? Oh yeah, they've done nothing. Social policies that help poor and working class people? Oh right, they keep cutting them. Yes they really help the people lol.
Maybe tell your Democratic buddies to vote with Republicans. Oh wait, they just want Americans to suffer for political gain. Trump has been great for working class people. Lowest unemployment, higher wages, etc. You can contribute it to Obama, but I recall people saying he’d be a disaster to the economy. I’d say you’d fall under them...
The ACA was an olive branch to the republicans. Obama wanted a bipartisan reform that the republicans could agree to. So he mostly used one of their plans. But they behaved like petty children and attacked their own plan just to spite him.
It was a GOP plan corrupted by whatever the Democrats wanted. And they got it through because of 60 Senators.
Passing legislation without any GOP votes wasn't a partisan hack thing to do, it was literally the only thing that could happen. The GOP refused to actually discuss what health care reform they wanted. All they wanted to do was attack. Obama's options were pass something without them, or pass nothing and let the situation get worse. He did what any president should do in the face of petulant children trying to hurt the people they were elected to help.
Ya sure. Was the exact same Romneycare bill put up for a vote? I don’t think it was. Look how it turned out for him. He lost 60 seats in the House and suffered the worst state legislative and governor losses in history.
Refusing to hold a hearing violated all previously set norms. No one has ever refused to hold a hearing for a SC pick before. McConnell found a new way to act like a petulant child in order to stop the president from doing his job. He made up a flimsy excuse that he has already acknowledged is a lie.
Norms don’t mean anything. He used the Senate rules to his advantage just like Democrats did in 2008. The President has the sole job of appointing. The Senate has the power to consent and he was exercising that power.
Obama tried to work across the isle with republicans and they did nothing but attack him for it. The republicans made no attempt to work with Obama.
Is that why his plan passed without any Republican votes? Maybe that’s why Republicans prospered in the midterms. Americans don’t like single party rule. Passing something without any Republican support is a core display of partisanship. One could argue, Obama was the source of hyperpartisanship we face today.
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@skittlez09
It’s an apples to oranges comparison. The Swiss are not like Americans. They don’t have as many people as America. It’s false to say that just because a system works somewhere else means that it’ll work here, because the people and their beliefs are inherently different.Wouldn't you agree that it would be unwise to point to one failed system to represent every single other universal system?What about Switzerland or other developed countries which have successful universal systems?
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@bmdrocks21
It affects other people when you make us pay for the student loans of people with stupid degrees that they would never be able to get a job with. Their stupidity affects me when I have to pay for the healthcare costs of obese drug addicts under M4A.
does it though? it would have a tiny impact on you at worst. And the massive benefits that would come from M4A (the hundreds of billions saved, the millions of prevented bankruptcies, the 10's of thousands of lives saved) would counter act those costs anyway. So no, it wouldn't really affect you, you would still be much better off.
When I have to pay unemployment benefits and food stamps towards people who refuse to work,
this is a pretty constant trope the right makes. The idea that poor people are just lazy. The idea is dumb. There are a small number of people who choose not to work. But the vast majority of people on unemployment and food stamps don't want to be. They simply can't break out of a cycle of poverty that republican policies helped to create.
9 out of 10 plans Democrats propose involve me paying for someone else’s misfortune or stupidity.
this is really short term thinking that is self defeating. It's like saying that you don't have children, so why should you have to pay taxes for schools. Or, you don't drive on interstates, so why should you have to pay taxes to maintain roads. In an extremely limited sense you would have a point. But without those things our society is much, much worse off. Even if you don't personally benefit from some of those programs, society as a whole very much does. So you do as well. Trying to cut them or prevent them is short sighted and counter productive.
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@ILikePie5
How do you believe population sizes and peoples beliefs would cause a universal system in the United States to fail?
Also there have been financial projections showing that Bernies healthcare plan would save millions.
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@skittlez09
How do you believe population sizes and peoples beliefs would cause a universal system in the United States to fail?
Ideologies. People don’t trust the government. If Democrats can’t count votes in Iowa, what makes you think they can run our healthcare. American ideology lies on individual liberty, not total government control
I haven’t seen Bernie show a plan to pay for it. And there have been numerous projections that M4A would cost trillions, not save millions. Add in the cost of running a bureaucracy and I’m sure your price skyrockets.Also there have been financial projections showing that Bernies healthcare plan would save millions.
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@bmdrocks21
+1It affects other people when you make us pay for the student loans of people with stupid degrees that they would never be able to get a job with. Their stupidity affects me when I have to pay for the healthcare costs of obese drug addicts under M4A. When I have to pay unemployment benefits and food stamps towards people who refuse to work, I am paying for their stupidity. 9 out of 10 plans Democrats propose involve me paying for someone else’s misfortune or stupidity.