Fox/Trump Immoral Handling of covid19

Author: ebuc

Posts

Total: 182
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 23,058
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@whiteflame
Sure they can. And when they die, you can truthfully claim the FDA didn't approve Tylenol for coronavirus, and you can blame their deaths on Trump.

Clap clap. Creat clickbait CNN.

Because chloroquine has been approved for other purposes, doctors are legally allowed to prescribe it for the use of treating the coronavirus if they want. Fact checked by CNN.

whiteflame
whiteflame's avatar
Debates: 27
Posts: 3,333
4
6
10
whiteflame's avatar
whiteflame
4
6
10
-->
@Greyparrot
Again, Tylenol: a) is already approved for use in treating symptoms caused by COVID-19 because those symptoms are consistent with other diseases, b) is an over-the-counter medication, which means it's entirely up to patients to decide whether to get it. Tylenol has actually caused quite a few deaths, but that's another story.

Show me the link to the latter claim. I'd love to see what support they're giving for why doctors can legally prescribe this medication for off-label purposes. That's not my reading of the circumstances surrounding the application of medications for unapproved uses like this:


Physicians are liable for the negative effects of prescribing medications like this. They are sometimes validated in their decisions to prescribe off-label, particularly for patients with no other avenues to treatment, but that doesn't mean that they have free reign to do so.

Chloroquine has not been approved for this purpose, that's a basic fact. The reality is that we have no supporting evidence to show that this medication is effective in patients who are sick with COVID-19 because there have been no in vivo studies to show that that's the case. Even if we assume that no one will overdose on a medication that shows no effectiveness against their COVID-19 symptoms, the fact remains that there is no support whatsoever for the claim that this will help patients. Trump should not be saying that it is effective.
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 23,058
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@whiteflame
Physicians are liable for the negative effects of prescribing medications like this.

They are also liable if they know the patient is going to die with no treatment and they refuse treatment to a patient on the basis that it wasn't clinically tested by the FDA. 

That includes Tylenol which also has not been clinically tested in labs against coronavirus patients.

Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 23,058
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@whiteflame
Show me the link to the latter claim.

It's straight off the CNN clickbait article.
whiteflame
whiteflame's avatar
Debates: 27
Posts: 3,333
4
6
10
whiteflame's avatar
whiteflame
4
6
10
-->
@Greyparrot
There is no treatment for COVID-19. Refusing to provide a cure that doesn't exist is not something they are liable for, regardless of the outcome. Refusing to provide any treatment can certainly put them in hot water, but that doesn't require using the equivalent of pseudoscience to prescribe a treatment that doesn't exist. 

I'm going to repeat and expand on my points on Tylenol, which you seem to be ignoring every time you post. Tylenol is often used and has been tested for patients who have fevers and pain. Those are symptoms of COVID-19, ergo its use in the treatment of the symptoms of COVID-19 is not problematic. Tylenol is not prescribed as a means to address COVID-19 directly, unlike chloroquine, which is being touted as a potential treatment that directly addresses the virus despite the lack of in vivo evidence to support that. Moreover, as patients can select whether to take Tylenol any time they wish by their own choice, meaning they are self-medicating, it doesn't encounter the same problems as chloroquine, which requires prescription. Doctors are liable for what they prescribe to you. They are not liable for what you buy off the shelf.

Give me the link to the article. I've looked at the site, I don't see it.
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 23,058
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@whiteflame
There is no treatment for COVID-19.

No tested treatment you mean approved by the FDA.

And at-risk people are NOT dying mainly due to the virus alone, they are dying mostly due to pneumonia, a symptom which Tylenol can't treat, but other medications can.

Treatments are not for the virus.

Treatments are for the symptoms that lead to death. Much like many of the AIDS medications, but you already know that. So does Trump.

So you can stop with the bullshit claiming dying AIDS and COVID-19 patients with life-threatening symptoms don't deserve doctors prescribing non-tested drugs simply on the basis that there is no cure for AIDS or COVID-19.
whiteflame
whiteflame's avatar
Debates: 27
Posts: 3,333
4
6
10
whiteflame's avatar
whiteflame
4
6
10
-->
@Greyparrot
I mean no clinically tested treatments, FDA approved or otherwise.
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 23,058
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@whiteflame
Maybe you are confusing cure with treatment.
whiteflame
whiteflame's avatar
Debates: 27
Posts: 3,333
4
6
10
whiteflame's avatar
whiteflame
4
6
10
-->
@Greyparrot
Don’t think so - treatment or cure, testing is still in the early stages. Point to an ongoing clinical trial in patients infected with COVID-19, if you happen to know of any, particularly if you’re aware of one for chloroquine.

Patients are being treated for the pneumonia, as they should when they get it. None of those treatments do anything to COVID-19, and usually cases of pneumonia are exacerbated to the point that patients have to go on ventilators, but that’s besides the point.

Chloroquine is touted as being effective against the virus in vitro. That’s important because a tube does not showcase symptoms. The in vitro evidence directly addresses the virus, not treatment of symptoms, so no, I don’t think I have this wrong.
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 23,058
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@whiteflame
Is Chloroquine effective treatment for any of the symptoms?
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 23,058
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
Nevermind. CDC has a full writeup on the drug.

The purpose of this document is to provide information on two of the approved drugs (chloroquine and hydroxychloroquine) and one of the investigational agents (remdesivir) currently in use in the United States.

Hydroxychloroquine and Chloroquine
Hydroxychloroquine and chloroquine are oral prescription drugs that have been used for treatment of malaria and certain inflammatory conditions. Chloroquine has been used for malaria treatment and chemoprophylaxis, and hydroxychloroquine is used for treatment of rheumatoid arthritis, systemic lupus erythematosus and porphyria cutanea tarda. Both drugs have in-vitro activity against SARS-CoV, SARS-CoV-2, and other coronaviruses, with hydroxychloroquine having relatively higher potency against SARS-CoV-2 [1,4,5]. A study in China reported that chloroquine treatment of COVID-19 patients had clinical and virologic benefit versus a comparison group, and chloroquine was added as a recommended antiviral for treatment of COVID-19 in China [6]. Based upon limited in-vitro and anecdotal data, chloroquine or hydroxychloroquine are currently recommended for treatment of hospitalized COVID-19 patients in several countries. Both chloroquine and hydroxychloroquine have known safety profiles with the main concerns being cardiotoxicity (prolonged QT syndrome) with prolonged use in patients with hepatic or renal dysfunction and immunosuppression but have been reportedly well-tolerated in COVID-19 patients.

Due to higher in-vitro activity against SARS-CoV-2 and its wider availability in the United States compared with chloroquine, hydroxychloroquine has been administered to hospitalized COVID-19 patients on an uncontrolled basis in multiple countries, including in the United States. One small study reported that hydroxychloroquine alone or in combination with azithromycin reduced detection of SARS-CoV-2 RNA in upper respiratory tract specimens compared with a non-randomized control group but did not assess clinical benefit [7]. Hydroxychloroquine and azithromycin are associated with QT prolongation and caution is advised when considering these drugs in patients with chronic medical conditions (e.g. renal failure, hepatic disease) or who are receiving medications that might interact to cause arrythmias.

Hydroxychloroquine is currently under investigation in clinical trials for pre-exposure or post-exposure prophylaxis of SARS-CoV-2 infection, and treatment of patients with mild, moderate, and severe COVID-19. In the United States, several clinical trials of hydroxychloroquine for prophylaxis or treatment of SARS-CoV-2 infection are planned or will be enrolling soon.  

There are no currently available data from Randomized Clinical Trials (RCTs) to inform clinical guidance on the use, dosing, or duration of hydroxychloroquine for prophylaxis or treatment of SARS-CoV-2 infection.  Although optimal dosing and duration of hydroxychloroquine for treatment of COVID-19 are unknown, some U.S. clinicians have reported anecdotally different hydroxychloroquine dosing such as: 400mg BID on day one, then daily for 5 days; 400 mg BID on day one, then 200mg BID for 4 days; 600 mg BID on day one, then 400mg daily on days 2-5.

whiteflame
whiteflame's avatar
Debates: 27
Posts: 3,333
4
6
10
whiteflame's avatar
whiteflame
4
6
10
-->
@Greyparrot
Not that I'm aware of, though I was interested, so I checked.

According to this Wikipedia article (which admittedly is probably incomplete to some degree), it has specific inhibitory effects on some species of the malaria parasite and amoeba. The only therapeutic effects I can find are a mild suppression of the immune response, which is not particularly good when you're dealing with an active viral infection, but good for rheumatoid arthritis and lupus, and some antiviral effects, which are more interesting.


That's probably why researchers are investigating some possible effects of the treatment, which may one day be validated as a treatment. Its target is the RNA-dependent RNA polymerase, which is pretty good if you're dealing with an RNA virus like this. The trouble is that it's only been tested in vitro for this application, and there are also some severe complications from overdose. That's not a problem in vitro, but when you put it into a patient, you have to make sure that the dose required for the antiviral effect is well below the point of overdosing. There are no clinical trials establishing that it reaches that threshold, hence my problem.

So, to answer your question, I don't think this is meant to provide any therapeutic effects to handle the symptoms caused by COVID-19. If anything, that laundry list of side-effects makes it pretty clear that patients are more likely to suffer ill effects before they get any better.
whiteflame
whiteflame's avatar
Debates: 27
Posts: 3,333
4
6
10
whiteflame's avatar
whiteflame
4
6
10
-->
@Greyparrot
Ah, this is much more thorough. So, there are no clinical trials, though some are planned. Good to know, though I think this bolsters my point that Trump probably shouldn't have touted this as an FDA approved treatment for COVID-19.
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 23,058
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@whiteflame
The purpose of this document is to provide information on two of the approved drugs (chloroquine and hydroxychloroquine) and one of the investigational agents (remdesivir) currently in use in the United States.

That statement is on the CDC website.

If you want to bitch at Trump for reading off of the CDC's website, by all means, ride that horse.
whiteflame
whiteflame's avatar
Debates: 27
Posts: 3,333
4
6
10
whiteflame's avatar
whiteflame
4
6
10
-->
@Greyparrot
Again, approved for what? Look at the document. It is approved for malaria and certain inflammatory diseases. Trump said it was approved for COVID-19. Please, point to where in that document it says "approved for COVID-19 treatment". Trump's selective reading (I doubt he ever looked at the site, but let's assume he did) doesn't excuse him. And, let's be clear about this, even if he meant that it was approved for other treatments and that they were looking into it as a potential treatment for COVID-19, none of that nuance appears anywhere in his speech on the matter. Those words were his choice, yet I notice you aren't defending what he actually said. You're defending how right it could theoretically be if he included more relevant information.
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 23,058
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@whiteflame
If you wanna ride the bitch-horse as to why a sitting president shouldn't show any personal optimism over a possible treatment a doctor might give to a panicked family member dying from pneumonia, ride it to the sunset. If you want to bitch at the president for offering hope to a panicked nation, you do that. People are dying and need something...anything. Would you rather Trump lock himself in his room and give podcasts like Biden is doing now? If that's what passes for optimism and hope, you can have it.
whiteflame
whiteflame's avatar
Debates: 27
Posts: 3,333
4
6
10
whiteflame's avatar
whiteflame
4
6
10
-->
@Greyparrot
This isn't a matter of personal optimism because being optimistic is very different from presenting falsehoods to the American public. It would be optimistic to say that treatments are being pursued and clinical trials are being fast-tracked to determine whether they work. If Trump hadn't said that 4th and 5th sentence - "They -- they've gone through the approval process; it's been approved. And they did it -- they took it down from many, many months to immediate." - we wouldn't be having this conversation. Neither of these sentences are accurate, and representing them as the state of things is blatantly absurd. Sounding optimistic is a good way to ensure that people feel secure in a bad situation. Using that optimism to proclaim that effective treatments are available where none exist, and specifically using a speech to tout the effectiveness of a specific treatment that lacks any meaningful support, is extremely negative. It doesn't help that panicked family member to know that their doctor could prescribe a treatment that would a) have no certain positive effect, b) is likely to cause a great deal of terrible side-effects, and c) will restrict the availability of that treatment to those who actually need it, not to mention that someone dying of pneumonia is beyond any stage of treatment for COVID-19.

So, in answer to your question, I think this is one of the worst things Trump has done during this crisis: providing false hope that induces people to hoard medication that is more likely to cause them harm than good. If that's your version of optimism and hope, I'll gladly do without either. I'd rather my president provide me with optimism and hope that has a basis in reality and doesn't induce its own harms in the process. Lying to the American public shouldn't be required.
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 23,058
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@whiteflame
 optimism and hope that has a basis in reality..

Sorry dude, but all optimism and hope are predicated on the reality that there could be none. Otherwise, what would be the point? You wanna be a computer crunching numbers on risk assessments, you do that. The rest of the world needs more than that. Just knowing I have a 30% chance of dying as an 80-year-old according to studies done by the FDA isn't really much comfort.
whiteflame
whiteflame's avatar
Debates: 27
Posts: 3,333
4
6
10
whiteflame's avatar
whiteflame
4
6
10
-->
@Greyparrot
So your response is that the president absolutely should lie as long as it makes people feel more relieved about the situation, regardless of any and all harms those lies cause? Sure, that's what the world needs right now. This isn't number crunching. It isn't risk assessment. It's straight up analysis of what Trump said, whether those words were accurate, and the impact of him having said it. Your lack of willingness to accept that these things are happening doesn't make them any less true, nor does your defense of what you wanted him to say make his actual words any less false. For someone who readily calls out the media for their falsehoods, you're oddly willing to accept Trump's.

For the record, it is entirely possible to be optimistic in this scenario without pretending that we're further along than we actually are. Maybe it's comforting to you to hear him lie about how close a treatment is. It's frightening to me that he's willing to lie so flippantly about something like this.
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 23,058
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@whiteflame
Okay, well that's your threshold for being personally frightened.

My threshold is this: When a sitting governor refuses to allow doctors to treat dying patients solely for the sake of politics.


Dear Licensed Prescribers and Dispensers:

The Department of Licensing and Regulatory Affairs has received multiple allegations of Michigan physicians inappropriately prescribing hydroxychloroquine or chloroquine to themselves, family, friends, and/or coworkers without a legitimate medical purpose.

Prescribing hydroxychloroquine or chloroquine without further proof of efficacy for treating COVID-19 or with the intent to stockpile the drug may create a shortage for patients with lupus, rheumatoid arthritis, or other ailments for which chloroquine and hydroxychloroquine are proven treatments.

Reports of this conduct will be evaluated and may be further investigated for administrative action. Prescribing any kind of prescription must also be associated with medical documentation showing proof of the medical necessity and medical condition for which the patient is being treated. Again, these are drugs that have not been proven scientifically or medically to treat COVID-19. Michigan pharmacists may see an increased volume of prescriptions for hydroxychloroquine and chloroquine and should take special care to evaluate the prescriptions’ legitimacy. Pursuant to Michigan Administrative Code, R 338.490(2), a pharmacist shall not fill a prescription if the pharmacist believes the prescription will be used for other than legitimate medical purposes or if the prescription could cause harm to a patient. It is also important to be mindful that licensed health professionals are required to report inappropriate prescribing practices. LARA appreciates all licensed health professionals for their service and cooperation in assuring compliance in acting responsibly while continuing to provide the best possible care for Michigan’s citizens during this unprecedented and very challenging time.

With his state now the nation’s pandemic epicenter, and with the blessing and help of the president and FDA, New York Gov. Andrew Cuomo brought in 70,000 doses of hydroxychloroquine, 10,000 doses of Zithromax and 750,000 doses of chloroquine.

The implications of Gov. Whitmer and her administration’s knee-jerk scare tactics should terrify all Michigan residents. Not only is our state’s top leader threatening the selfless health care workers who are on the frontline trying to save lives, but she’s denying possible life-saving medications to actual COVID-19 victims.

Living in an authoritative centrally planned state is all fun and games until your grandfather is dying with no hope, thanks to red tape.
whiteflame
whiteflame's avatar
Debates: 27
Posts: 3,333
4
6
10
whiteflame's avatar
whiteflame
4
6
10
-->
@Greyparrot
It strikes me as strange that it doesn't have you the slightest bit unnerved that a sitting president is misrepresenting clinical research. But hey, I guess we're just different.

As for the opinion piece, it certainly provides a little more to chew on, but it doesn't make much of a case for using chloroquine or anything associated. The results it provides are either from in vitro studies or are all anecdotal, and the recommendations of some authors on papers with sample sizes too small to establish efficacy aren't worth much. At some point, these medications may actually have proven, positive effects. I'd be excited to see them. Until then, this is largely a shot in the dark, and one that's potentially dangerous to patients. Whitmer's response was over the top, but that doesn't justify misuse of the medication, which is pretty rampant.
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 23,058
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@whiteflame
It strikes me as strange that it doesn't have you the slightest bit unnerved that a sitting president is misrepresenting clinical research. But hey, I guess we're just different.

Nah, my nerves are just fine since Trump and Fauci are obviously playing the goodcop optimist / badcop skeptic routine with the same goal in mind.

Not a doubt in my mind what the intentions are.

Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 23,058
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@whiteflame
 it doesn't make much of a case for using chloroquine or anything associated...

The point is if you had a dying grandparent in Michigan, you would have to hope they survived the medivac to New York if you wanted their doctors to have the options Gov. Cuomo allowed them to have. It's a terrifying aspect of overbearing government control.  It's the difference between declaring martial law instead of asking people to listen to Dr. Fauci's guidelines about sheltering, hygiene, and social practices.

whiteflame
whiteflame's avatar
Debates: 27
Posts: 3,333
4
6
10
whiteflame's avatar
whiteflame
4
6
10
-->
@Greyparrot
It doesn't matter to me what Trump's intentions are. It matters that his words were clearly false, and that many likely believed him at face value, regardless of what Dr. Fauci or anyone else has said.

If I had a grandparent who was dying from COVID-19, it would likely be too late for any intervention beyond a ventilator. If I had a grandparent who was recently infected with COVID-19, I very much doubt that my priority would be to put them on an untested, potentially damaging medication to treat it.
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 23,058
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@whiteflame
and that many likely believed him at face value,

This is such an oversimplified statement considering the millions of gaffes politicians make on a daily basis. Many look for intent and context before rushing to the dictionary. 

People that believe political gaffes = intent are more likely to die from Darwinian effects long before anyway.
Greyparrot
Greyparrot's avatar
Debates: 4
Posts: 23,058
3
4
10
Greyparrot's avatar
Greyparrot
3
4
10
-->
@whiteflame
I very much doubt that my priority would be to put them on an untested, potentially damaging medication to treat it.

I'm so glad I am not related to you. I would hope My doctor would find me competent enough to tell you to leave the room so the Doctor can do his job without interference.
whiteflame
whiteflame's avatar
Debates: 27
Posts: 3,333
4
6
10
whiteflame's avatar
whiteflame
4
6
10
-->
@Greyparrot
By that logic, no falsehood the president has ever said or could ever say would do any harm. Yes, many do fact check statements made by our elected leaders. Many also don’t trust media sources that could provide that information, and may pay more attention to those that either gloss over the statement or wholly agree with it. Interesting that you call this a gaffe - didn’t know that was a synonym for a lie.

Well, the feeling is mutual. I’d have a problem with someone in my family demanding access to what is practically snake oil at this point in response to an illness like this. I didn’t know it was interference to demand that clinical trials actually be used to support treatments - silly me.

14 days later

bmdrocks21
bmdrocks21's avatar
Debates: 6
Posts: 2,798
4
6
11
bmdrocks21's avatar
bmdrocks21
4
6
11
-->
@whiteflame
Thanks for your patience. I will try to be concise.

I have a hard time believing that Israeli troops generally aren't being used to address issues related to illegal immigration, given that it's a near-existential threat for them. Just because they aren't stationed on the border doesn't mean that they aren't functioning in anything related to immigration or anti-terrorism, which are inherently linked in their case. I agree, America having more soldiers wouldn't put most of them on the border. That's part of the difference between Israel and America in this regard. 

And I am having a hard time believing that the vast majority of Israeli troops are involved with illegal immigration. Because that is what you would have to be asserting for your point on forced conscription and higher military to civilian ratio to be relevant. Otherwise, it wouldn't matter that they have more troops available if not a vastly higher number of them are related to illegal immigration than the US can afford to equally provide for its border defense. And the numbers I have found online simply aren't leading me to that conclusion.

I believe that I was quite generous in the troops per mile calculation because in my calculation I pretended that all of the border guard were put on the 150 mile stretch in question to come up with 40 troops per mile. Obviously not all of them are there, and it was my intention to ignore that to allow for a decent margin of error. 

Now, the border guard is diverse in application, including special riot teams and other such divisions, so I don't know why a potentially large number of military troops would be involved in illegal immigration and not be a part of the border guard.

We can easily afford the liberal estimate of 40 troops per mile based solely on military reserves, and I would urge you to provide a source backing the claim that their border patrol numbers are too high for us to match to reach similar levels of illegal immigration curtailment. 

We're not just talking about desert ecosystems, hence I'm talking about floodplains and river banks (though to be clear, we do prize some desert ecosystems, hence Death Valley, Joshua Tree, the Mojave National Preserve, Red Rock Canyon and others). They do have much broader effects. We could cover those, though I do think it's somewhat tangential to dig into those too deeply.


Suffice to say that this is also something that would need to be made on a case-by-case basis similar to the commercial market concerns expressed earlier. I will take your word that there will be some cases in which the wall will become more expensive in order to maintain these ecosystems. Either that, or there could just be increased troops presence in these areas as the lack of wall will attract illegal immigrants to these areas.

I guess my perspective is that this "full steam ahead" approach to the wall is inherently damaging if it brushes over considerations of commerce and ecosystems. I agree, the Trump administration is likely a lot more focused on getting it built than on the logistics regarding passage through it. That's generally what I find so problematic in this regard. I understand that they don't feel that another administration would take building the wall seriously (they're probably right), but I don't think these are issues that we can realistically paper over. From my perspective, if Republicans want to show that the wall is a necessity for future administrations to continue building and maintaining, then they should be focused on ensuring that it doesn't cause undue harms that their opponents can continually cite against it. Preparing for these problems makes their positions far less assailable, though I guess that's not the point.

I couldn't agree more. I am not entirely pleased with what I have seen with their approach. Unfortunately, this isn't a perfect world in which we have time and partisan politics makes this impossible. The current Administration has had to go through so many hoops just to simply get funding for the wall, that it is a primary concern that planning has unfortunately not been possible when funds are an uncertainty. 

Now, while the Trump Administration has had a perverse incentive to build the wall by all means necessary, it could also be said that the Democrats have a perverse incentive to block the wall, even if they believed it was a good idea. Trump was elected on building the wall, and it would be a lot easier to get reelected building an imperfect wall that is more "assailable" than it could be than to defend the position of "I know you elected me to build the wall and I tried to, but I have nothing to show for four years". The Democrats know this and it is a political game. If they actually cared, they would be the ones arguing for a wall that takes every little detail into consideration. But you have Nancy Pelosi saying that simply "a wall is n immorality". It isn't, and she knows it, but they will attack it to destroy his campaign promise.

So overall, the options are: have a "full steam ahead approach" or have no wall at all. I would prefer the "full steam ahead approach" reluctantly because the issues of stopping drugs and illegal immigrants are such vital issues to solve right now.

That being said, in a situation where everyone's terrified, it's all the more important for our leaders to present information clearly and correctly. Trump did say that the FDA had approved the use of chloroquine to treat patients infected with COVID-19, which is blatantly false. That sends the message that this is a safe and effective treatment for this infection, which it is not. This treatment has only been tested in vitro, which is insufficient evidence to show that patients should be taking this medication. Trump's statement in no way reflected this, and he can at least partly be blamed for shortages of these drugs across the country, though admittedly, many of these people may have decided to buy these meds based solely on the preliminary scientific evidence. Even if I assume that's entirely the result of people making dumb decisions, though, Trump shouldn't be feeding into those mentalities by bolstering a false narrative about this medication. That in and of itself is dangerous.

I have found out that the woman likely killed her husband *conspiracy theory perhaps, so no need to argue about it, but just food for thought because it is interesting* Also, the Blaze reported on it, so expect bias. So, the woman had been arrested for domestic abuse against her husband and had expressed desire for a divorce. She had been diagnosed with PTSD, had anxiety, and had a long history of voting for Democrats. So, I doubt a big time Democrat would take the president at his word, but maybe. If you want to see the whole story, take a gander here. https://www.theblaze.com/news/woman-who-blamed-trump-for-her-husbands-chloroquine-death-is-dem-donor-who-was-once-charged-with-domestic-abuse-in-divorce-argument

As for that press briefing, the FDA commissioner stated that it would be allowed to be prescribed under "compassionate use", which is where they allow an experimental drug to be used on patients. This requires FDA approval, which is what Trump was likely referring  to. That clarification was made during the briefing by the FDA commissioner. https://www.businessinsider.com/chloroquine-remdesivir-compassionate-use-coronavirus-what-it-means-2020-3

Trump has not only said that quote that you put above for GrayParrot, but he has also said things like:
“so we know if things don't go as planned, it’s not going to kill anybody.”
“I think it could be a game-changer, and maybe not,”

So he by no means was saying this was some miracle drug. Most of his optimistic statements were followed by statements about how it might not actually work. So, while this could influence some individuals to try to obtain the drug, you also have to contrast that with the other option of being pessimistic and offering no potential solutions, which would have led to more panic. You have to be an optimistic leader during troubling times. Imagine if FDR said something like "we may get out of this depression some day, but I have no clue when that will be. I don't even know how we will get there". You have to be confident and try to create that light at the end of the tunnel for people.
bmdrocks21
bmdrocks21's avatar
Debates: 6
Posts: 2,798
4
6
11
bmdrocks21's avatar
bmdrocks21
4
6
11
-->
@whiteflame
Sorry didn't keep it concise lol.
blamonkey
blamonkey's avatar
Debates: 24
Posts: 532
3
5
8
blamonkey's avatar
blamonkey
3
5
8
-->
@whiteflame
@bmdrocks21
“so we know if things don't go as planned, it’s not going to kill anybody.”

A cursory search indicates that Sweden has discontinued chloroquine trials due to worsening conditions amongst afflicted patients (1). It's also no secret that chloroquine and its derivatives could potentially lead to cardiac complications. Ackerman of the Mayo Clinic estimated that roughly 10% of the US population is vulnerable to prolonging the split-second interval between electrical charges of the heart, which, if prolonged beyond 500 milliseconds, could cause arrhythmia and subsequent death (4). The percentage may seem small, but given that Covid-19 has spread to nearly half a million (5) (if not more) in the US, 10% is a lot if people are starting to buy in bulk and administer the drug themselves with no physician guidance or prescription. The three studies widely cited to showcase chloroquine's potential are tarnished with methodological flaws which include: lacking a control group, not conducting a blind study, and even an instance in which patients selected for a study were likely to recover irrespective of any administered treatment (3).

So, to an extent, taking the drug can kill you. I don't get why people are lambasting critics for being cynical when it comes to chloroquine. I despise being cloistered between four walls. I detest the fact that I may no longer have a job because the theater I worked at has shuttered. In fact, I hope that chloroquine or some other drug is found to effectively treat people. However, when someone speaks under the auspices of a government body, particularly when they occupy an illustrious position in said government, they need to exhibit restraint and caution. If the White House said something along the lines of "anecdotal evidence suggests that chloroquine might save lives," I would be all for it. Notice the qualifiers though. People can imbue a feeling of hope and still present the facts. However, ambivalent, and sometimes contradictory rhetoric doesn't instill hope. People panicked and bought the drug en masse, depriving others of a treatment for lupus and arthritis (6). That said, if I'm proven wrong and the drug saves 100% of people in the future, then that is fine with me. My objection is not with administering the drug, it's purely with the ill-advised recommendation at such an early stage.

I'd like to hear what whiteflame has to say about the potential side effect given his expertise. Hint hint nudge nudge.

In regards to the wall, physical boundaries did not present much of an obstacle in the past, even with border patrol surges. In fact, many coyotes, human smugglers, have circumvented physical barriers (7). Not only do some cartels consider coyotes indispensable as drug trafficking (10), not only do cartels directly profit through "taxes" on migrants for passing through their territory to get to the US (9), but prices for human smuggling into the US have not deterred people from relying on the service (8). The message that is being expressed loud and clear by these groups is:

"Get here before he builds the wall" (8).

Could there be an effective wall policy? Maybe. It would require lots of people to be hired, and the attrition rate is particularly high in certain places that need to be staffed, and the hiring process can span on for hundreds of days (11). CBP data also shows that 56% of applicants fail the background check too. Previously, the Bush administration loosened hiring restrictions on the CBP citing national security concerns. However, when that happened, crime and corruption in the DHS surfaced. 809 complaints were obtained by the American Immigration Council, and over 90% were left un-investigated, often due to staff shortages (11). Also, following the loosened standards, the numbers of CBP employees arrested for misconduct, off-duty crime, and civil rights violations increased by 44% (11). Over 200 DHS employees took in $15 million dollars worth of bribes from smugglers, and over 1,000 complaints of excessive force have been levied against the organization (11). The citation I have adduced is a veritable cornucopia of past failings that have not been addressed.

I have really no interest in what the Dems or Republicans (Reps maybe?) are doing. Both parties have their own anathemas. I guess I shouldn't be so acerbic, but the political saber rattling is the least interesting aspect of this debacle. 

Sources