Another thread about free will

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10.09.2018 01:21PM

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@TwoMan

@drafterman

it's clear that the conscious mind isn't needed (though it probably plays an important role).
That makes no sense. You are contradicting yourself. What role does the conscious mind play if all decisions are made by the unconscious mind?

I'd say, human consciousness is a social necessity.

Being able to apparently "explain our motives and intentions" allows us to construct social abstractions that promote enhanced cooperation.

For example, most social mammals use body language and specific grunts, growls, squeaks, and pants in order to communicate rudimentary motives and intentions. Human consciousness is just a small step forward along those same lines, allowing humans to coordinate and cooperate in even more complex ways.

#92

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10.09.2018 01:24PM

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@keithprosser

What does the conscious mind do?
The problematical thing the conscious mind does is manifest subjective experience. That is what we have no idea how it comes about or how we could implement it in a machine.

Doesn't a dog have "manifest subjective experience"? I mean, they do seem to remember things. Do you believe a dog has consciousness?

Topic's author

#93

keithprosser

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keithprosser

10.09.2018 03:33PM

I'm fairly sure that mammals have consciousness, and probably most vertebrates. I am less sure about,say, insects!

#94

Shed12

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Shed12

10.09.2018 05:42PM

Is it really that consciousness is something that is possessed?

#95

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10.09.2018 07:38PM

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@3RU7AL

Human consciousness is just a small step forward along those same lines, allowing humans to coordinate and cooperate in even more complex ways.

What you are calling "consciousness" I would call "intelligence".

Do you believe a dog has consciousness?

I am reasonably sure that a dog has consciousness as I tend to think that all life has some degree of consciousness.

#96

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10.10.2018 12:52PM

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@TwoMan

Minimal consciousness is twoness and awareness:

1} observer O, and

2} observed, O, via,

3} line{s}-of-relationship O--------------O or as geodesic lines (O)( )( )(O),

4} background against which the above exist.

We have not quantised or quantified;

1} metaphysical-3 gravity ( )

2} metaphysical-4 dark energy )(.

Virtual particles or dark matter.

Virus has RNA or DNA never both ergo the twilight organism between biologic/soul and non-biologic/soul.

Viruses often have a protein shell, ---that is often based on icosa(20}hedron--- unlike plasma { proteins and lipeds } membrane of a cell

7 days later

#97

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10.17.2018 02:12PM

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@keithprosser

I'm fairly sure that mammals have consciousness, and probably most vertebrates. I am less sure about,say, insects!

What would you consider the hallmarks (integral, identifiable, scientifically quantifiable characteristics) of consciousness?

#98

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10.17.2018 04:06PM

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@TwoMan

What you are calling "consciousness" I would call "intelligence".

Those are two different words.

I am reasonably sure that a dog has consciousness as I tend to think that all life has some degree of consciousness.

Dogs fail the mirror test.

#99

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10.17.2018 04:56PM

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@Goldtop

What you are calling "consciousness" I would call "intelligence".
Those are two different words.

And those are five different words.

I am reasonably sure that a dog has consciousness as I tend to think that all life has some degree of consciousness.
Dogs fail the mirror test.

We have differing ontological opinions of the nature of consciousness.

#100

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10.17.2018 05:41PM

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@TwoMan

And those are five different words.

Unlike yourself, I understand they have different meanings.

We have differing ontological opinions of the nature of consciousness.

You mean, you have your own personal opinion based on false premises.

#101

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10.17.2018 08:36PM

Goldtop,

You mean, you have your own personal opinion based on false premises.

Please explain what you consider the correct and non-opinion based definitions that can be (and exactly how they can be) derived from (explicitly) true premises.

#102

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10.18.2018 02:31PM

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@Goldtop

Dogs fail the mirror test.

Ants pass the mirror test.

#103

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10.18.2018 03:13PM

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@secularmerlin

Along with 4 other non-human animals.

#104

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10.18.2018 03:16PM

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@Goldtop

Does that mean these ants are definitively self aware?

#105

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10.18.2018 03:48PM

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@secularmerlin

I read that there may be other behaviors that explain it that have to do with their antennae.

#106

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10.18.2018 04:01PM

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@Goldtop

So by the same rational there could be other reasons besides a lack of self awareness that explains not responding to the mirror test. Things like relying on your sense of smell to identify other individuals over visual acuity?

By that argument the mirror test is not a definitively accurate test of self awareness whatever that is.

#107

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10.18.2018 04:15PM

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@secularmerlin

Is that what you've found or is that what you're asserting?

#108

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10.18.2018 04:58PM

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@Goldtop

What I find is that a test is not definitive if it does not conclusively reveal what it is testing for or if it gives false possitives. If ants are not self aware but they set off a false positive for self awareness then the test is not definitive.

#109

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10.19.2018 04:38PM

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@secularmerlin

Ants only show a partial positive on the test, which is why they believe some other behavior explains it. Nothing wrong with the test itself.

#110

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10.19.2018 05:33PM

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@secularmerlin

self awareness whatever that is.

* i * = I-verse = ego

"U" niverse/"G" od > Universe/God > universe { local } >...

..........................................................> I-verse > you-verse, we-vese > them-verse

Is the inversion of egg free will?

Does the fertilized egg have an ego?

.......SPACE(>*<) i (>*<)SPACE.........

Pi = (--)

Pi^3 = 31.00 62 7 66 -----icosahedron has 31 primary great circles and left and right versions ergo 62 great circles

Pi^4 = 97.40 90 91 03 40 02 4

97.4 minus 31 = 66.4 { Pi-Time? }

31 bilateral spinal nerves

#111

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KETTtiprINU&

10.20.2018 07:18PM

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@keithprosser

I'd say the 'no free will position' is the result either of over-thinking or under-thinking such differences. Airline pilots are not the same as toy balloons - I can see no reason not to say the difference is that pilots have free will and balloons don't; and that 'free will' is the difference beteen them.

Speaking for myself(idk if this has already been expressed in this thread or not), free will does not exist. The universe, in large part, is deterministic. If we understood the state of every molecule of air, etc, we'd be able to predict the weather with a 100% accuracy. We'd be able to predict wind

patters, temperatures, etc, all that would affect that the balloons flight path to 'X'. However, since we will never have such an understanding of the atmosphere, variables that are 'unknown' will ruin our ability to predict whether more than a few days out with any good accuracy as their effects and influences are magnified over time(we've all been there where they say it will be sunny only for it to rain...).

As for people, we are nothing special... we are bound by the same laws of the universe as the balloon is, made up of the same stuff as everything else, we live in a largely deterministic universe and there is no space for free will. Someone may say that at the quantum level, it is impossible to determine what is going on there, it's unknown, you can't predict anything... in that case, randomness doesn't give you free will either.

Question) Can you predict your next thought or does it just 'pop' into your head? I'm not aware that people have the ability to author their thoughts... therefore if you can not even have control over what you think, it makes no sense to say that we have control over our actions as they are the live manifestations of what goes on in our heads.

To throw a number out there, 99% of people would say a person who is mentally ill is not responsible for the manifestations of their illness. No one blames a schizophrenic for hearing voices and acting paranoid. They are victims of their neurology and biology going wrong. Charles Whitman had a brain tumour that undoubtedly affected how his brain functioned and the thoughts or impulsivity that arose from it that was later expressed in his actions of shooting up a college campus.

Here's a good example shown at the beginning of this video:

The previous video that clearly lays out a case against free will:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vCGtkDzELAI

#112

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10.23.2018 04:31PM

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@keithprosser

The difference between a balloon gong from glasgow to london and a pilot flying to same route is that one ended up there and the other wanted to go there.

Sure, assuming that 'want'/desire is entirely immaterial and not born out of the pilot's psychology. That, of course, is not the case, as the 'want' to go there is born out of the pilot's mental state which is the product of biology, chemistry, etc... The crash course vid I linked earlier lays out how these wants and desires, from wanting to fly to London to choosing a particular brand of car over another is the product of various things coming together... things outside of our control... You didn't pick your brain, your parents, your environment growing up, etc... The numerous variables that went into causing the balloon to drift towards London are analogous to the various factors that had an impact on the pilot's psychology, whether that be his own neurology, hormones, genetics, past experiences... 'whatever' that led him down a path in life that would allow him to go to London...

Ultimately, no one can choose what they are going to think of next. There is no freedom involved. I'd be impressed if anyone woke up with a mental itinerary of what their thoughts would be later on and have the ability to adjust it as they saw fit... Being that you can not predict what you are going to think of next or have any control over what pops into your head, it only makes sense for the actions taken under the various assumptions, beliefs, and thoughts you had during the day to be not of your own choosing as well.

idk if anyone would say bugs have free will. Do mice have free will? Fish? Where do you draw the line? We're all products of biology, idk what would make humans so special to have freedom of will when everything else in the universe is bound by its laws and deterministic nature...

#113