Black vs Asian civil rights

Author: triangle.128k ,

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  • triangle.128k
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    America's racial structure was never ideal from the start. 

    Blacks were brought as slaves to toil on the cotton farms for southern elites. In smaller numbers, Asians came working under slave-like conditions for other elites in charge. Both faced discrimination that tried to lower their opportunities in order to enforce their lower position in society.

    However, you would now notice that Asians are unlike any other minority. They carry more power and wealth than whiites - speaking on averages. Blacks on the other hand remain in dysfunctional communities and are still present in a lower socio-economic status.

    Now while there could be multiple reasons to this, let's first consider the approach for equality. Blacks largely followed liberal leaders such as Web DuBois, placing a focus on protest for equal treatment. Asians largely took an approach more similar to Booker T Washington's ideals. They focused on education and economic opportunities to readily exploit. 

    As a result, who do you believe is in a better condition nowadays?

    Asians remain segregated at times, for you can spot multiple "Chinatowns." However, you'd also find Asians who are much more integrated - almost entirely. Nobody really minds either.

    Blacks are pseudo-segregated. They have been forced to be desegregated with mixed results. Many of those who co-exist with whites will still form some level of self segregation, which are in dysfunctional communities promoting cancer such as "thug life" or single motherhood. Those who attempt to better themselves may be branded as "Uncle Toms, Oreos, Whitewahsed," or other such derogatory terms.


    Can we conclude from this that blacks have followed the wrong method for civil rights, and due so today? Their modern condition is not due to "Institutional racism" (given affirmative action and reverse discrimination policies) but poor communities, crime, cultural marxism, and a failure of working to a sense of upliftment.

  • triangle.128k
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    (Excuse the typos I'm typing on a phone)
  • ravensjt
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    --> @triangle.128k
    Blacks were brought as slaves to toil on the cotton farms for southern elites. In smaller numbers, Asians came working under slave-like conditions for other elites in charge. Both faced discrimination that tried to lower their opportunities in order to enforce their lower position in society.
    Not the first Blacks but true. Asian discrimination is much less severe than the Africans were/was and at a later date 

    However, you would now notice that Asians are unlike any other minority. They carry more power and wealth than whiites - speaking on averages. Blacks on the other hand remain in dysfunctional communities and are still present in a lower socio-economic status.
    Because Asians keep money within their own Community, they spend on their own


    Asians remain segregated at times, for you can spot multiple "Chinatowns." However, you'd also find Asians who are much more integrated - almost entirely. Nobody really minds either.
    The number of integrated Asians isnt large, and it's often frowned upon within their Community.. I don't know why you think otherwise (  I was married to an Asian)

    Blacks are pseudo-segregated. They have been forced to be desegregated with mixed results. Many of those who co-exist with whites will still form some level of self segregation, which are in dysfunctional communities promoting cancer such as "thug life" or single motherhood. Those who attempt to better themselves may be branded as "Uncle Toms, Oreos, Whitewahsed," or other such derogatory terms.
    The "Uncle Toms" within the Community are the ones who deny the struggle to those who are engaged it it, the "thug-life" communities isnt as big as you make it out to be. Single motherhood is not praised by anybody, but it's the result of other factors.


    Can we conclude from this that blacks have followed the wrong method for civil rights, and due so today? Their modern condition is not due to "Institutional racism" (given affirmative action and reverse discrimination policies) but poor communities, crime, cultural marxism, and a failure of working to a sense of upliftment.
    Institutionalized Racism has an extreme role in the plight of Blacks... It's been less than 60yrs since Blacks were allowed to vote and/or Jim Crow ended.

    Reverse discrimination isn't reality seeing as to how Blacks dont have the power needed to be racist (racism= power + prejudice)


    The truth is that Blacks allow the Asians/Arab etc.. to come into our Communities and setup shop and make money in which they bring to their own Communities.

    Then we let lottery machines and cigarettes and drugs and guns  into our Communities that benefit the Prison Complex and Government.... all that money we never see again.


  • DBlaze
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    --> @ravensjt

    Reverse discrimination isn't reality seeing as to how Blacks dont have the power needed to be racist (racism= power + prejudice)

    Are you saying that blacks cannot be racist?  I know blacks that are racist against blacks.  I have also calmed situations where blacks thought someone was being prejudice when it was not the case.  I interrupted the outrage of said black person to explain what the person being blamed for it was actually doing... then everyone (multiple witnesses) understood and the situation was diffused.  

    This quick to judge prejudice and racism accusation is most often the cause of these racial disputes on a personal, real life scenario.  To tell you the truth, I think it is happening less and less face to face these days, even though everyone thinks it is more prevalent due to the problems Social Media brings to the forefront.

    What are your thoughts on Social Media and it's consequences as suggested above?  Do you think my statement has merit?

  • Casual_Leftist
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    --> @triangle.128k
    However, you would now notice that Asians are unlike any other minority. They carry more power and wealth than whites - speaking on averages. Blacks on the other hand remain in dysfunctional communities and are still present in a lower socio-economic status.
    There are a few factors that set how white Americans treat blacks compared to Asians. First Asians are a small minority (~5%) compared to blacks (~13%) and where they lived in great number, the West Coast and California in particular, there was  relatively some racism, legal and social, against Asians compared to blacks. And with Asians coming voluntarily they still had a connection with their homeland ie access to resources abroad. This is not a starting position African slaves had. And as Ravensjt as points out they were more tight knit economically, probably because they could still maintain their culture and values because they weren't literal slaves. Also there may have been a skin tone dynamic too, East Asians being light skinned, generally smaller in stature compared to whites, and less in number made them look less threatening so there was not as much need to remind Asians of their lower tier social class - until WW2 when the enemy was an Asian. Then the propaganda took a racist tone and there was Internment. But it was mostly about trying to import enough Asians to make the Western railroad but not enough to establish large numbers. But there was no history of Asian-American political leaders being assassinated like MLK and Malcolm X, that's important too. Asian have never been seen much as politically motivated in the US - not a threat to white supremacy like blacks and Hispanics represent.

    Have you ever wondered why "hip" means "cool"? When high on opium you tend to lie down - or if you want to socialize you sit up on your hip. "Long time, no see" is also a saying borrowed from Chinese 'engrish'.

    Blacks largely followed liberal leaders such as Web DuBois, placing a focus on protest for equal treatment. Asians largely took an approach more similar to Booker T Washington's ideals. They focused on education and economic opportunities to readily exploit. 

    As a result, who do you believe is in a better condition nowadays?
    Jim Crow South didn't really effect Asians in West. Black history is marred by a cycle of building communities only to see them destroyed. After centuries of cruel slavery and dehumanization the Civil War was won - this former slave class was never given that 40 acres and a mule as often referred. They started out with nothing, many would go back to working for their old masters for a wage. Prison chain gangs were common for keeping former slaves working. The gains of the Reconstruction Era: black schools, black politicians, black entrepreneurs etc were severely mitigated by Jim Crow law and reinforced by the domestic terrorist organization known as the KKK. (Don't even start with any 'They were Democrats' distraction).

    In 1921, 8 years before the Great Stock Market Crash, one of the richest black communities in the US - Tulsa, Oklahoma - was destroyed by white rioters [1]. This was still the Jim Crow Era after all. WW2 happens - it ends; Black soldiers returning from the war noted that the French would cheer them as liberators and yet and home in the US they'd still experience social racism similar to what the jews had in Nazi Germany [2]. Don't even get me started on the Tuskegee experiment [3]. Do you understand the concept of racial gerrymandering and how it's still effecting voting demographics [4]?

    Even after the Civil and Voting Rights Acts of 64 and 65 respectively there is still tones of discrimination against blacks from employment applications [5] to home loans [6] to even medical treatment [7]. Compound that all with a culture of poverty that forms from generational poverty after being denied generational wealth. Key word by the way - the ticket to communal success is **generational wealth**. Even in these recent years the accomplishments of Barack Obama are being undone with no care at all by the man who ran on the conspiracy he was born in Kenya.

    From all this I hope I have dented your belief in the Asian Model Minority Myth [8] and we can conclude the Civil Rights Movement was necessary and would always be met with white opposition.

    Sources:

    Edit: Figured out how quotes work.
  • Casual_Leftist
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    --> @ravensjt
    Reverse discrimination isn't reality seeing as to how Blacks dont have the power needed to be racist (racism= power + prejudice)
    The definition you use is Institutional Racism, but what social racism not done by institutions of power? Unless the definition of power is more broad?

    What if a Korean where to walk into a convenience store owned by a black person and the black owner said to the Korean "Get out of here, I hate Asians, you eat dog, you steal, get out!" - would that be an act of racism given that the store owner has the "power" granted to him by legal title of the store and personal rights of self defense and property ownership?
  • ravensjt
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    --> @DBlaze
    Are you saying that blacks cannot be racist?  I know blacks that are racist against blacks.  I have also calmed situations where blacks thought someone was being prejudice when it was not the case.  I interrupted the outrage of said black person to explain what the person being blamed for it was actually doing... then everyone (multiple witnesses) understood and the situation was diffused.  
    I'm saying that in the current condition we are in ( In America in 2018), Blacks cant be racist against Whites.

    Blacks vs. Blacks isn't thats prejudicism/discrimination/self hatred or whatever... I'd have to hear the opinions of the Black and their reasoning first tbt



    This quick to judge prejudice and racism accusation is most often the cause of these racial disputes on a personal, real life scenario.  To tell you the truth, I think it is happening less and less face to face these days, even though everyone thinks it is more prevalent due to the problems Social Media brings to the forefront.
    I agree, in some aspects, Social Media is cowardly

    What are your thoughts on Social Media and it's consequences as suggested above?  Do you think my statement has merit?
    In some aspects, Social Media gives the "uncourageous" a voice..... that can be good or bad

    But more importantly, things that have been going on literally for hundreds of years are now being brought to an audience who never saw it before...things like police brutality, Blacks having Cops called on them for trivial matters, Racial Profiling etc...

    The excuse of " I didn't know it was happening" is now becoming unacceptable
  • ravensjt
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    Hey Casual_Leftist


    The definition you use is Institutional Racism, but what social racism not done by institutions of power? Unless the definition of power is more broad?
    There is still power in being White in America....not just for being an "Elite White" but just by being White in and of itself

    I would never say that Whites dont struggle or have burdens, but I am saying that their Race is never an obstacle to their struggles..... Thats  Power


    What if a Korean where to walk into a convenience store owned by a black person and the black owner said to the Korean "Get out of here, I hate Asians, you eat dog, you steal, get out!" - would that be an act of racism given that the store owner has the "power" granted to him by legal title of the store and personal rights of self defense and property ownership?
    Great example.....

     Racism refers to social actions, practices or beliefs or political systems that consider different races to be ranked as inherently superior or inferior to each other......

    Prejudice or discrimination practices (like your situation) refers to a positive or negative evaluation of another person based on their perceived group membership....

    When I use the word "Power" I am talking on a socio-economic level with systemic structures etc.


    The example I keep falling back to is the situation in South Africa.... now, if they decide to kill the White Farmers because they are White then that would be an example of Black Racism 
  • DBlaze
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    --> @ravensjt
    I think the world is getting smaller.  Things you wouldn't hear about in other states that was only reported on local news to a specific area back in the day, is now being sent country wide via 24 hour news networks and social media.  I still think things like this are happening less and less, but more and more peoplpe are hearing about it, which then causes more minorities to stand up to authority figures, which whites just don't do, we do what they say, and if we don't, we admit that we deserved what we got.  If you look at every video that is questionable as far as discrimination, police brutality, or the like, something combatant was said by the "victim" that just would not be said by white people in the same situation (you can say that whites wouldn't be in that situation in the first place, there may be some truth to that), but if we were, we wouldn't talk back.   You had mentioned on DDO in the past about classes that young blacks take to prepare them to combat potential racism, prejudice, or profiling and how to deal with it in the future.  

    If these classes do exist, what I would take from that class is to expect it because it is inevitable, when it may not necessarily be the case in each of these situations.  Are they also taught not to consider the circumstance before jumping to the racist conclusion?   I would venture to say that most situations blaming racism are just a misunderstanding, but people are quick to pull the race card, then become irate because of it blowing an absolutely innocent misunderstanding way out of proportion.
  • ravensjt
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    I think the world is getting smaller.  Things you wouldn't hear about in other states that was only reported on local news to a specific area back in the day, is now being sent country wide via 24 hour news networks and social media.  I still think things like this are happening less and less, but more and more peoplpe are hearing about it, which then causes more minorities to stand up to authority figures, which whites just don't do, we do what they say, and if we don't, we admit that we deserved what we got.  If you look at every video that is questionable as far as discrimination, police brutality, or the like, something combatant was said by the "victim" that just would not be said by white people in the same situation (you can say that whites wouldn't be in that situation in the first place, there may be some truth to that), but if we were, we wouldn't talk back.   You had mentioned on DDO in the past about classes that young blacks take to prepare them to combat potential racism, prejudice, or profiling and how to deal with it in the future. 
    I agree that things are happening with less frequency, I have it better than my father did (who was born and lived under Jim Crow as a teenager) and he certainly has it better than my grandfather (who's grandmother was enslaved)

    As far as Blacks handling a situation differently than Whites, I dont know if that's true, you may be right but thats only because of the underlining tension that alrdy would exist between a Policeman (Black or White) and a Black Male.

    It's interesting that you mention how Blacks can combat racism/prejudice etc, because this is another example of "privilege".... Thats something that Whites just dont have to teach their children (not as fervently as Blacks do at least)

    If these classes do exist, what I would take from that class is to expect it because it is inevitable, when it may not necessarily be the case in each of these situations.  Are they also taught not to consider the circumstance before jumping to the racist conclusion?   I would venture to say that most situations blaming racism are just a misunderstanding, but people are quick to pull the race card, then become irate because of it blowing an absolutely innocent misunderstanding way out of proportion.
    While I have a measurable amount of sympathy for Whites because to criticize a Black seems to be a death sentence to ones personal integrity, I often have to remind myself that the fault lies with the Whites Ancestors and they are to blame... It's the sins of the father being shown when this happens

    I dont know the intentions of people who say racist things but then claim "they aren't racist"

    But the onus is on the attacker, not the one being attacked....By claiming "Race Card" the accuser is attempting to not only erase the original offense; but also they are attempting to victimize the victim yet again, by accusing her of wrongdoing.
  • DBlaze
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    --> @ravensjt
    We now live in an era of victims.  Have you noticed?  It's not only blacks and minorities, it is anyone who has been hurt by anyone else in the past, it's bullies, it's corporations, it's the government, it's capitalism, it's healthcare or lack there of, it's ancestors, it's old white men, it's minorities, it's immigration, it's illegal immigration...etc. (I have found myself doing this as well). The truth is we live in the best country in the world.... But....    We are now a country of placing blame on everyone else but ourselves.... not taking responsibility for our actions, which we are mostly responsible for.  If we are unhappy, there is always someone to blame, and if there is someone unhappy that complains about it, people feel empathy, without even knowing the full story and get unhappy for them.

    We have a right to be happy, we have a right to be unhappy, we have a right to be mean to people, we have a right to have a bad day and take it out on people that don't deserve it, we have a right to make a mistake.....

    But it seems that we have forgotten that most of the blame for where we are and what situations we have gotten ourselves into is mostly our own fault.  (at least 75%)

    I think this is an era of spoiled people who will never be satisfied with what we have.
  • ravensjt
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    --> @DBlaze
    We now live in an era of victims.  Have you noticed?  It's not only blacks and minorities, it is anyone who has been hurt by anyone else in the past, it's bullies, it's corporations, it's the government, it's capitalism, it's healthcare or lack there of, it's ancestors, it's old white men, it's minorities, it's immigration, it's illegal immigration...etc. (I have found myself doing this as well). The truth is we live in the best country in the world.... But....    We are now a country of placing blame on everyone else but ourselves.... not taking responsibility for our actions, which we are mostly responsible for.  If we are unhappy, there is always someone to blame, and if there is someone unhappy that complains about it, people feel empathy, without even knowing the full story and get unhappy for them.
    Hmmm.... I agree with your assessment although I think we may disagree on where the accountability lies... for example:

    I think your statement could be read as saying that minorities who are impoverished need to "pull themselves up by the bootstraps" and stop blaming "The Man"...... or:

    It could be read as "minorities who suffer today are still feeling the leftovers from a Jim Crow Era".... and that the System has made it harder for some to achieve than others.....

    So does the blame lie with the Minority or the System? Who's not taking Ownership?


    But it seems that we have forgotten that most of the blame for where we are and what situations we have gotten ourselves into is mostly our own fault.  (at least 75%)
    Many times it's our fault but my percentage would be much lower (probably closer to 40%). Many people are born into opportunities and chances.


    I think this is an era of spoiled people who will never be satisfied with what we have.
    Spoiled People are the results of being privileged.... not all people have that blessing Bro. Not to mention part of being spoiled is to look at others trying to achieve and telling them that they are playing "The Victim"

    Know what I mean?

  • DBlaze
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    --> @ravensjt
    Hmmm.... I agree with your assessment although I think we may disagree on where the accountability lies... for example:

    I think your statement could be read as saying that minorities who are impoverished need to "pull themselves up by the bootstraps" and stop blaming "The Man"...... or:
    True to a point.

    It could be read as "minorities who suffer today are still feeling the leftovers from a Jim Crow Era".... and that the System has made it harder for some to achieve than others.....
    Also True to a point.  Can they both be true?  Some people have the chance and don't realize it because of what is taught to them, where others have minimal chance, but create the chance for themselves and succeed.

    So does the blame lie with the Minority or the System? Who's not taking Ownership?
    It lies with both...  yes many people are born into opportunities and chances, and the people that are not do have to "pull themselves up by the bootstraps"  just like everyone else does, the decisions made still have consequences, nothing changes that, and everyone has obstacles, they all need to be approached differently depending on the circumstances. 

    Unfortunately, the sins of white ancestors, does not automatically mean that white people of this day and age should be blamed for it, or it should be taken out on them.  This is a form of jealousy.  Everyone has something that they want.  I want a yacht, that doesn't mean that I hate everyone who has one for having it, or hate  someone born into it (who did not earn it themselves), for being advantaged, privileged, or rich.


    But it seems that we have forgotten that most of the blame for where we are and what situations we have gotten ourselves into is mostly our own fault.  (at least 75%)
    Many times it's our fault but my percentage would be much lower (probably closer to 40%). Many people are born into opportunities and chances.

    And many are not.

    The percentage is a tough thing to discern, but at lease we agree that there is some personal responsibility.


    I think this is an era of spoiled people who will never be satisfied with what we have.
    Spoiled People are the results of being privileged.... not all people have that blessing Bro. Not to mention part of being spoiled is to look at others trying to achieve and telling them that they are playing "The Victim"

    Know what I mean?

    Yes, but people trying to achieve is different from people complaining and expecting reparations, and many expecting reparations or hand-outs don't try because they believe the system should give them the opportunities instead of looking for them on their own, I call that spoiled.  They are sitting around waiting for something to happen.

    Spoiled is not owned/designated to only the rich and privileged... just like I believe blacks can be racist.  I'm still confused on how you or anyone else can say that they cannot be.  I don't think I will ever understand that.

    When a black person says they don't like white people, that to me is racist.  I have heard that from mainstream artists, and on the streets and apparently it is okay.  I beg to differ.  

    I don't like a lot of black people, but I don't like a lot of white people either,  I don't like a lot of Asians too, but to say I don't like a whole particular race is racist.  This is based on personality and not the color of their skin.  
  • Outplayz
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    --> @triangle.128k
    Ultimately i think it's a bit unfair to compare the two bc blacks did go through a lot more than Asians have. Another thing that separates Asians from blacks is that they come here with a lot of wealth already. Making it easier to succeed. However, what Asians do well is not play a victim card. Even if they don't have wealth, i've never seen or heard of an Asian say they have no privilege. They just work hard and make something for themselves. It doesn't matter how much is stacked against them, they work towards a goal of succeeding. I've also noticed that with middle easterners. One would think if you look like Osama Bin Laden you would think everyone hates you... but, nope. Middle Easterners will just make fun of themselves, and joke about it... but i haven't noticed a victim mentality. 

    So, working hard towards succeeding i think is a smart direction to take, and to not feel like a victim. I think a large portion of the black community has just conceded this. It may have something to do with IQ too.. i don't know. I do know Asians have the highest IQ by country and that seems to correlate with success. However, middle easterners have lower than average IQ and they are still successful... So not to sure about IQ. What i do know is the best of the best middle easterners come here, so maybe that is why there are a lot of successful ones here. It really has to do with how much wealth you bring with yourself here and where you start. Blacks unfortunately don't have this head start but in my opinion they do in other ways such as affirmative action. They can get into good schools, they can make something of themselves... I just think in the end of the day, they have allowed people telling they can't succeed get into their communities minds. 

    Today, anyone can succeed if they try. There will always be racists, but i personally rarely come across one. Actually, in the OC where i live... people are more racist towards Asian than blacks. Bc Chinese people are buying all the houses here. In any case, i don't see much racism. I remember a friend of mine in high school was doing so good until he let a victim mentality in. Then he started to fall apart. Committing crime and going to jail. So another thing the exacerbates a victim mentality is the choices you make.    
  • Plisken
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    --> @ravensjt
    A few refinements

    Racism refers only to a belief as with any other ism, and the belief is not necessarily as simple as a statement of "superiority" of race absent context.  That's sufficiently summed under the term, "idiocy", but perhaps best  conveyed with its respective form of racial tribalism.  Of course, to sustain the status the racially based tribe people must be convinced of a threat to their community on the basis of race or a superiority of race.  

    Racist is used in conjunction to describe an actor or action based upon racism.


    Living without a particular obstacle is NOT power. Force*distance=work  Power=force*distance/time That's why when you encounter an obstacle on the highway, you dip into your power reserve (gas tank ie cash in the bank) to increase the amount of force from a harder working engine in order to maintain the same distance over time.  If you happen to live next to a tunnel and the next person happens to live on the other side of the hill thereby presenting an obstacle, that is not power.  People expended energy they had stored to apply force to the hill and displaced it over time, and THAT is power.  Your living by the tunnel is *partially* a RESULT of power insofar as power is required.

    That a population of say, 200,000,000 people does not contain the conditions observed to some degree in a population of 20,000,000 people residing in the same setting seems unlikely unless the smaller population is defined by its condition.  From a statistical standpoint it's more likely the the relationship is inverted from your postulation.   That is, it is more likely that members in the smaller  20,000,000 population may catagorically have a larger lack of first hand experience regarding the totality of obstacles faced by members arbitrated within the larger population.  This is one of many reasons why actionable reference with respect to a sustainable system of racial minorities and majorities is unethical, being of an inherently flawed nature, and with the casting of ignorance, widely considered immoral.

    Being spoiled has not to do with the alottment of privilege, rather it is only philosophically sustainable to conceptualize that it arrives from a lack thereof.  Being "spoiled" does not ensure the continuity of associated privilege either, potentially quite the opposite.  
  • ravensjt
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    --> @DBlaze
    Unfortunately, the sins of white ancestors, does not automatically mean that white people of this day and age should be blamed for it, or it should be taken out on them.  This is a form of jealousy.  Everyone has something that they want.  I want a yacht, that doesn't mean that I hate everyone who has one for having it, or hate  someone born into it (who did not earn it themselves), for being advantaged, privileged, or rich.
    No POC (person of color) who is "conscious" blames Whites living today for past transgressions, however, to deny the "leg up" that many Whites have is problematic especially when the stereotype is that Blacks are "lazy" or "whinny".

    That denial enrages many Blacks



    So, working hard towards succeeding i think is a smart direction to take, and to not feel like a victim. I think a large portion of the black community has just conceded this. It may have something to do with IQ too.. i don't know. I do know Asians have the highest IQ by country and that seems to correlate with success. However, middle easterners have lower than average IQ and they are still successful... So not to sure about IQ. What i do know is the best of the best middle easterners come here, so maybe that is why there are a lot of successful ones here. It really has to do with how much wealth you bring with yourself here and where you start. Blacks unfortunately don't have this head start but in my opinion they do in other ways such as affirmative action. They can get into good schools, they can make something of themselves... I just think in the end of the day, they have allowed people telling they can't succeed get into their communities minds.

    Judging intelligence by Race without looking at cause is called scientific racism. Nutrition, health and parental literacy in ones youth are what influence IQ Tests

    Those who come here from abroad have a very small "sample size" compared to Blacks, both in numbers and in historical placement here in the West. 

    Trust me, NOBODY is telling Blacks they cant succeed... if anything, Black Parents are telling their children that they must worker harder to succeed than any other Race in America

  • ravensjt
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    --> @Plisken
    Living without a particular obstacle is NOT power. Force*distance=work  Power=force*distance/time That's why when you encounter an obstacle on the highway, you dip into your power reserve (gas tank ie cash in the bank) to increase the amount of force from a harder working engine in order to maintain the same distance over time.  If you happen to live next to a tunnel and the next person happens to live on the other side of the hill thereby presenting an obstacle, that is not power.  People expended energy they had stored to apply force to the hill and displaced it over time, and THAT is power.  Your living by the tunnel is *partially* a RESULT of power insofar as power is required.

    The underlined is all I'll respond to, the rest is an analogy....

    Living without an obstacle is an advantage.......

    When the end goal is the same ( prosperity, peace, success etc) and one side has a "head start" or less obstacles in their path.... they are in the position of Power.

    I suspect you know this and that's why you used an analogy/red herring fallacy

    That a population of say, 200,000,000 people does not contain the conditions observed to some degree in a population of 20,000,000 people residing in the same setting seems unlikely unless the smaller population is defined by its condition.  From a statistical standpoint it's more likely the the relationship is inverted from your postulation.   That is, it is more likely that members in the smaller  20,000,000 population may catagorically have a larger lack of first hand experience regarding the totality of obstacles faced by members arbitrated within the larger population.  This is one of many reasons why actionable reference with respect to a sustainable system of racial minorities and majorities is unethical, being of an inherently flawed nature, and with the casting of ignorance, widely considered immoral.
    It seems unlikely that a population of 200 million can enforce their will and dominance on a population of 20 million?

    The 200 million should (by numbers alone) face worse hardship than the 20 million because there are more of them?

    What you claim discounts the history of Race in America....



    Being spoiled has not to do with the alottment of privilege, rather it is only philosophically sustainable to conceptualize that it arrives from a lack thereof.  Being "spoiled" does not ensure the continuity of associated privilege either, potentially quite the opposite
    Of course being spoiled means one is privileged....thats why it's synonyms are "pampered" and "coddled".
  • DBlaze
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    --> @ravensjt
    Do you think literacy is a big issue for parents and kids (as mentioned above)?  My neighborhood is mostly POC, and I have many conversations with blacks as we cross each others paths walking dogs, (it's a good way to meet people) I used to have a pit bull, or American Staffordshire Terrier (which is the same thing depending on who you ask and what books you read).  I have done extensive reading on the dogs because I owned one.  Her name was Avery, that is why I was DAvery on DDO.  She passed away a few years back.

    Now I own a Husky named Blaze, hence the new name.  
    Anyhow, I noticed that every black person that I have come across that has a Rottweiler calls them Rockweilers.  Literally, every single one, and not many have really heard of American Staffordshire Terrier that have Pit bulls.  I can only come to the conclusion that they have never read one single book about the dog that they own, which makes me think they don't care about the dog and it's well being.  So, we exchange pleasantries and I move on.... judging.  And yes I judge when they don't pronounce the kind of dog that they have correctly.

    Do you have any insight on this phenomenon?  Is it a cultural thing?  Or am I correct on my assumption that they have never really seen the word spelled out?

    Again, I am judging on the way they say the word, not the color of their skin. I have never heard a white person call it a Rockweiler.
  • Plisken
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    --> @DBlaze
    There are cultural colloquialisms which vary across the United states that get entire species "wrong" in the context of standardized organization for universal communication.  That doesn't mean they don't read books
      Maybe their great great grandparents didn't.  It means the books you read were not written by people who value every historical use in terminology.  
  • Plisken
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    --> @DBlaze
    There are cultural colloquialisms which vary across the United states that get entire species "wrong" in the context of standardized organization for universal communication.  That doesn't mean they don't read books
      Maybe their great great grandparents didn't.  It means the books you read were not written by people who value every historical use in terminology.  
  • DBlaze
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    --> @ravensjt
    You can still be all of those adjectives and not be an elite, or privileged, but I was more referring to all of the youth of today.  There a parents out there buying I phones outright (Freaking $1000) for kids that just can't afford them because they don't want the kid to be left out.  I have friends that are passing on health insurance for themselves so they can buy their kids non necessities.  I remember a time when my parents couldn't afford things, and they would flat out tell me, we can't afford that.  

    Maybe that is still happening these days, but I guess I just don't see it, or the definition of what is affordable has changed quite a bit.
  • Plisken
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    --> @ravensjt
    The underlined is all I'll respond to, the rest is an analogy....

    Living without an obstacle is an advantage.......

    When the end goal is the same ( prosperity, peace, success etc) and one side has a "head start" or less obstacles in their path.... they are in the position of Power.

    Rather, a headstart towards a common goal represents a position which does not require as much power, relative to the "other side" (of the hill).  The position of power, sticking with the hill analogy, would be on top, not by the tunnel.  

    An advantage implies the context of competition, which I have not addressed directly, however the knowledge of overcoming obstacles also has potential to be used to ones advantage to efficiently work over time, given the opportunity in circumstance.


    I suspect you know this and that's why you used an analogy/red herring fallacy
    Hmm, will try to clear things up then. 

    I did use an analogy, which was meant to illustrate the application of Truth written to refine a previous falacious statement on power for clarity.  The fallacy which the analogy is meant to address for reference within the thread is the associative leap regarding the relationship between power and obstacles, if that makes sense.  The underlined portion still stands, and the analogy is not a red herring.  I had to look up that term, believe it means a misleading way of distracting from the original topic.
  • Plisken
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    --> @ravensjt
    It seems unlikely that a population of 200 million can enforce their will and dominance on a population of 20 million?

    The 200 million should (by numbers alone) face worse hardship than the 20 million because there are more of them?

    No to both, the 200,000,000 by numbers alone is more lilely to have a larger body of people facing all manner of experiences, including an assortment of hardship, than the smaller population in the same setting unless selected for condition.  The inverse of what you postulsted is more lilely, meaning that it's more likely that members of the smaller population lack experiences of the larger than the other way around.  A population does not "face hardship".  



    What you claim discounts the history of Race in America....

    I'm a little hesitant to delve into the history of Race in America before obviating the futility of racism as a reliable basis of reality, but I've not discounted the historical effect of racism.  The modern context of the American landscape spanning several generations is one of natives, immigrants and people decended from various migrants over vast historical, geographical, and socioeconomic circumstances that this thread has obviously not even begun to scratch the surface.  The OP is probably still curious about the rammifications and necessity of political action from the 1860's through the 1960's on the dark skinned Americans of African decent today.


  • Casual_Leftist
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    --> @ravensjt
    There is still power in being White in America....not just for being an "Elite White" but just by being White in and of itself

    I would never say that Whites dont struggle or have burdens, but I am saying that their Race is never an obstacle to their struggles..... Thats  Power
    It is **A** Power. Power comes in many forms both from institutions, from social etiquette/culture, Race, Money, The People, Barrels of Guns etc. I understand the concept of white privilege and how it is separate from economic privilege and the building of generational wealth. But the existence of White Privilege does not negate the possibility of a black person being racist in western countries. I'm glad you like my example because it shows how your provided definitions are not mutually exclusive. You say my example is your second definition - but the interaction clearly fits the first definition:

     Racism refers to social actions, practices or beliefs [of] political systems that consider different races to be ranked as inherently superior or inferior to each other......
    No, like I already said that's the definition of institutional racism.

    What I described was a black business owner telling a Korean man that he's not welcome because 1) "You eat dog"; 2) "you steal" - the first is an accusation that would imply eating dog is an inferior act. And that by simply being Korean he was a thief, which is an inferior social class, especially to a business owner.

    Racism doesn't need to be spelled out like the Spanish mestizo system or the South African legal code. It can happen in simple interactions like my example.

    Prejudice or discrimination practices (like your situation) refers to a positive or negative evaluation of another person based on their perceived group membership....
    What do you think of this equation Prejudice/Race = Racism. Prejudice based on Race is Racist. What about Prejudice/Sex= ??

    When I use the word "Power" I am talking on a socio-economic level with systemic structures etc.
    Wouldn't the black business owner be in a higher socio economic position than the shifty Korean patron vis a vis capitalism? Being black doesn't help, but when we do weigh in other privileges the black man is in the position to tell a customer to F off. Although that example couldn't specifically happen do to anti-discrimination laws, but it shows in theory blacks can be racist. Not everything said about honkies/crackers can be chalked up to frustrated reactions to oppression. Hoteps and black supremacists are clearly racist. Even the SPLC acknowledges this. They don't need to control the government to be racist.

    As I said before power comes from many places, I don't think we should gerrymander the definition of racism to just fit institutional power which blacks do have potential access to - and in some cases like Barry O and various other well-to-do blacks - do actually have.

    The example I keep falling back to is the situation in South Africa.... now, if they decide to kill the White Farmers because they are White then that would be an example of Black Racism 
    Why does it have to be so extreme as killing them? The alt-right propaganda also claims rape and killings are occurring. Mandela strove for reconciliation between the races, I understand how the most fertile farmland was unequally distributed by race. The "homeland" aspect of the Apartheid regime really did a number on the demographics - but that issue was something Mandela seemed to not address on his campaign for national unity. With all this said I think taking the land of white farmers w/o compensation because they are white would also be racist. But given the racist history the farm should be taken through 'eminent domain' (a source of power) and be bought at fair market value - if the SA gov would have trouble paying that much they could issue bonds (IOUs) to the farmers as compensation. It must be acknowledged for SA that just taking the good farmland from whites w/o compensation would only hurt the race relations Mandela sought to mend.
  • Plisken
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    --> @Casual_Leftist
    There is still power in being White in America....not just for being an "Elite White" but just by being White in and of itself

    I would never say that Whites dont struggle or have burdens, but I am saying that their Race is never an obstacle to their struggles..... Thats  Power
    It is **A** Power. Power comes in many forms both from institutions, from social etiquette/culture, Race, Money, The People, Barrels of Guns etc. I understand the concept of white privilege and how it is separate from economic privilege and the building of generational wealth. But the existence of White Privilege does not negate the possibility of a black person being racist in western countries. I'm glad you like my example because it shows how your provided definitions are not mutually exclusive. You say my example is your second definition - but the interaction clearly fits the first definition:

    If one's 'race' does not present an obstacle, which in reality it Truly can't, that is NOT a power as has been covered in this thread because "being white" cannot be demonstrated to apply force across distance over time. Obstacles with respect to race can only be presented by people who contrive them.