Denominations

Author: Tradesecret

Posts

Total: 43
DeusVult
DeusVult's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 107
0
1
1
DeusVult's avatar
DeusVult
0
1
1
-->
@RoderickSpode
Hasn't the Catholic church changed it's views on social issues at times?
Nope.

Take artificial contraception.  Up until the Lambeth conference in 1930 where the Anglican Church made a minor exception to the use of Artificial contraception, every Christian denomination condemned its use.  Now every Christian denomination except for the Catholic Church permits its use.

The Catholic Church's official teachings do not change with time.
RoderickSpode
RoderickSpode's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 1,044
2
2
2
RoderickSpode's avatar
RoderickSpode
2
2
2
-->
@DeusVult
Nope.

Take artificial contraception.  Up until the Lambeth conference in 1930 where the Anglican Church made a minor exception to the use of Artificial contraception, every Christian denomination condemned its use.  Now every Christian denomination except for the Catholic Church permits its use.

The Catholic Church's official teachings do not change with time.
Well, they eventually acknowledged heliocentrism over geocentrism. And they held to the popular scientific claim of geocentrism because they believed it paralleled scripture. And as I understand it, accepting evolution is optional.
DeusVult
DeusVult's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 107
0
1
1
DeusVult's avatar
DeusVult
0
1
1
-->
@RoderickSpode
The whole Galileo thing was more political than scientific.

Galileo was also in error - the sun is not stationary and the orbits are not circular.  It was ultimately about Galileo being arrogant.

Copernicus was a Catholic priest and when he presented his theory to the Pope it was well received.  However, the problem was the same reason that a heliocentric model was rejected by the Greeks.  There was no means of seeing a parallax.  The Jesuits  and universities were not forbidden from investigating a heliocentric model - only that they were not able to say it was true until it had been proven to be so.

The Church has always been open to science.  Faith & Reason combined have always been at the centre of Catholicism.
RoderickSpode
RoderickSpode's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 1,044
2
2
2
RoderickSpode's avatar
RoderickSpode
2
2
2
-->
@DeusVult

The whole Galileo thing was more political than scientific.
How so?


Galileo was also in error - the sun is not stationary and the orbits are not circular.  It was ultimately about Galileo being arrogant.
He obviously wasn't in complete error. But that's not really the issue. Wherever he was in error has nothing to do with the Catholic church's view on geocentrism and heliocentrism.


Copernicus was a Catholic priest and when he presented his theory to the Pope it was well received.  However, the problem was the same reason that a heliocentric model was rejected by the Greeks.  There was no means of seeing a parallax.  The Jesuits  and universities were not forbidden from investigating a heliocentric model - only that they were not able to say it was true until it had been proven to be so.
There seems to be some Catholic sources that say it's blasphemy to deny a geocentric model because of those given authority to speak as an oracle for God had declared it so.


The Church has always been open to science.  Faith & Reason combined have always been at the centre of Catholicism.

Being open to science doesn't seem any different than being open to atmosphere, water, vegetation, etc. I think what you mean is they are open to scientific theories and claims. And that I have a hard time with because I understand the conflict around Galileo's time involved the stars' and planets' reference in scripture. If a scientific theory conflicted with scripture, how could they accept it?

DeusVult
DeusVult's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 107
0
1
1
DeusVult's avatar
DeusVult
0
1
1
-->
@RoderickSpode
The Galileo thing popped up at the same time at the Protestant revolt was in full swing.  The Protestants were accusing the Papacy of denying the Bible for not condemning Galileo outright.   Galileo on the other hand was saying that not only did you have to believe him, but that the Church had to change its teachings.  As the Church's claim that it is the sole authority issues of Faith, this made it extremely difficult on the Pope. 

When Galileo wrote a defense of his position, what he wrote could be interpreted as calling Pope Urban VII "Simplicio" - a simpleton.  He forced the Pope to act.  He was however protected by the Pope from a much harsher sentence than he could have been convicted with.

The Church's position was to follow the consensus of the best scientists.  When they asked Galileo to prove his position by showing the parallax that must exist if his position was true, he couldn't.  Yet he demanded that they accept his position as true.  When there is an objection that you cannot answer, you cannot demand that standard model must be rejected.  As noted Copernicus said the same thing, but he was not labelled a heretic - the Church took it into consideration with interest. 

 There seems to be some Catholic sources that say it's blasphemy to deny a geocentric model because of those given authority to speak as an oracle for God had declared it so.
Yeah.  The Church itself has said that its authority does not extend into the scientific realm.  Jesus did not leave that authority to the Apostles.  If by some means the flat earthers are correct and the Geocentric model is correct, the Church would accept that.  The salvation of souls is not dependent on the relative movement of the sun and earth.

 If a scientific theory conflicted with scripture, how could they accept it?
It didn't.  However, the Protestants screaming that it did made patience to resolve the situation difficult.  As the Pope's primary concern is the salvation of souls and the unity of the faith he was forced to act.
RoderickSpode
RoderickSpode's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 1,044
2
2
2
RoderickSpode's avatar
RoderickSpode
2
2
2
-->
@DeusVult

The Galileo thing popped up at the same time at the Protestant revolt was in full swing.  The Protestants were accusing the Papacy of denying the Bible for not condemning Galileo outright.   Galileo on the other hand was saying that not only did you have to believe him, but that the Church had to change its teachings.  As the Church's claim that it is the sole authority issues of Faith, this made it extremely difficult on the Pope. 

When Galileo wrote a defense of his position, what he wrote could be interpreted as calling Pope Urban VII "Simplicio" - a simpleton.  He forced the Pope to act.  He was however protected by the Pope from a much harsher sentence than he could have been convicted with.

The Church's position was to follow the consensus of the best scientists.  When they asked Galileo to prove his position by showing the parallax that must exist if his position was true, he couldn't.  Yet he demanded that they accept his position as true.  When there is an objection that you cannot answer, you cannot demand that standard model must be rejected.  As noted Copernicus said the same thing, but he was not labelled a heretic - the Church took it into consideration with interest. 
Why is the Catholic church so staunch on Transubstantiation? There's certainly no scientific evidence of it. And miracles that defy natural science are generally visible and made clear.


It didn't.  However, the Protestants screaming that it did made patience to resolve the situation difficult.  As the Pope's primary concern is the salvation of souls and the unity of the faith he was forced to act.
When you say It didn't, do you mean heliocentrism doesn't  conflict with scripture. If so, I would agree with that. But my understanding was that the Catholic church's authoritative position was that it did conflict with the holy scriptures. Are you saying it was only the Protestants that opposed heliocentrism?

RoderickSpode
RoderickSpode's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 1,044
2
2
2
RoderickSpode's avatar
RoderickSpode
2
2
2
-->
@DeusVult
Yeah.  The Church itself has said that its authority does not extend into the scientific realm.  Jesus did not leave that authority to the Apostles.  If by some means the flat earthers are correct and the Geocentric model is correct, the Church would accept that.  The salvation of souls is not dependent on the relative movement of the sun and earth.
I agree. Do you feel that if an evangelical Christian missionary leads an Indonesian village to Christ, that none of the villagers would be saved because the missionaries are not part of the Catholic church?
DeusVult
DeusVult's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 107
0
1
1
DeusVult's avatar
DeusVult
0
1
1
-->
@RoderickSpode
Why is the Catholic church so staunch on Transubstantiation? There's certainly no scientific evidence of it. And miracles that defy natural science are generally visible and made clear.
Because this is what Jesus told them.  It is his body and blood.  

When you say It didn't, do you mean heliocentrism doesn't  conflict with scripture. If so, I would agree with that. But my understanding was that the Catholic church's authoritative position was that it did conflict with the holy scriptures. Are you saying it was only the Protestants that opposed heliocentrism?
At the time Protestants did oppose heliocentrism.   There were some Catholics who did oppose it and some who were open to it.  The Church had great respect for the teachings of Aristotle, and Aristotle had been a proponent of the Geocentric model.  Thus the majority of scientists of the time believed the Geocentric model to be accurate.  Without conclusive proof the Church was not willing to contradict the teachings of so esteemed a philosopher.  That doesn't mean that they refused to.  You have to remember the Church does not act quickly, it takes time to review and consider.

There were ways to read the scriptures both ways.  The Church would follow the thinking of St. Augustine:

"Usually, even a non-Christian knows something about the earth, the heavens, and the other elements of this world, about the motion and orbit of the stars and even their size and relative positions, about the predictable eclipses of the sun and moon, the cycles of the years and the seasons, about the kinds of animals, shrubs, stones, and so forth, and this knowledge he holds to as being certain from reason and experience. Now, it is a disgraceful and dangerous thing for an infidel to hear a Christian, presumably giving the meaning of Holy Scripture, talking non-sense on these topics; and we should take all means to prevent such an embarrassing situation, in which people show up vast ignorance in a Christian and laugh it to scorn. The shame is not so much that an ignorant individual is derided, but that people outside the household of the faith think our sacred writers held such opinions, and, to the great loss of those for whose salvation we toil, the writers of our Scripture are criticized and rejected as unlearned men. If they find a Christian mistaken in a field which they themselves know well and hear him maintaining his foolish opinions about our books, how are they going to believe those books in matters concerning the resurrection of the dead, the hope of eternal life, and the kingdom of heaven, when they think their pages are full of falsehoods on facts which they themselves have learnt from experience and the light of reason? Reckless and incompetent expounders of holy Scripture bring untold trouble and sorrow on their wiser brethren when they are caught in one of their mischievous false opinions and are taken to task by those who are not bound by the authority of our sacred books. For then, to defend their utterly foolish and obviously untrue statements, they will try to call upon Holy Scripture for proof and even recite from memory many passages which they think support their position, although “they understand neither what they say nor the things about which they make assertion.”
DeusVult
DeusVult's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 107
0
1
1
DeusVult's avatar
DeusVult
0
1
1
-->
@RoderickSpode
I agree. Do you feel that if an evangelical Christian missionary leads an Indonesian village to Christ, that none of the villagers would be saved because the missionaries are not part of the Catholic church?
The Church teaches that if a person is invincibly ignorant that the Catholic Church is the church of Christ, but lives out an exemplary life holding true to natural law would receive what is necessary from God to gain salvation (even if it need be instruction from an angel on his/her deathbed).
RoderickSpode
RoderickSpode's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 1,044
2
2
2
RoderickSpode's avatar
RoderickSpode
2
2
2
-->
@DeusVult
The Church teaches that if a person is invincibly ignorant that the Catholic Church is the church of Christ, but lives out an exemplary life holding true to natural law would receive what is necessary from God to gain salvation (even if it need be instruction from an angel on his/her deathbed).
Then this would probably mean that every believer not part of the Catholic church would be saved because they all would be ignorant about the Catholic church being the church of Christ. (A Baptist believer, Methodist believer, etc., believes they are in a church that's a part of the Body of Christ).
DeusVult
DeusVult's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 107
0
1
1
DeusVult's avatar
DeusVult
0
1
1
-->
@RoderickSpode
There is a difference between vincibly and invincibly ignorant.  Only God knows who.  Ignorance does not save you - the path is narrow.
RoderickSpode
RoderickSpode's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 1,044
2
2
2
RoderickSpode's avatar
RoderickSpode
2
2
2
-->
@DeusVult
Because this is what Jesus told them.  It is his body and blood.  
Jesus also said He was the Vine, and the Door. Why couldn't His reference to bread and wine be figurative?

How do you think the related verses would be translated into English if the bread and wine were symbolic?

At the time Protestants did oppose heliocentrism.   There were some Catholics who did oppose it and some who were open to it.  The Church had great respect for the teachings of
Aristotle, and Aristotle had been a proponent of the Geocentric model.  Thus the majority of scientists of the time believed the Geocentric model to be accurate.  Without
conclusive proof the Church was not willing to contradict the teachings of so esteemed a philosopher.  That doesn't mean that they refused to.  You have to remember the Church does not act quickly, it takes time to review and consider.

There were ways to read the scriptures both ways.  The Church would follow the thinking of St. Augustine:

"Usually, even a non-Christian knows something about the earth, the heavens, and the other elements of this world, about the motion and orbit of the stars and even their size and
relative positions, about the predictable eclipses of the sun and moon, the cycles of the years and the seasons, about the kinds of animals, shrubs, stones, and so forth, and this knowledge he holds to as being certain from reason and experience. Now, it is a disgraceful and dangerous thing for an


infidel to hear a Christian, presumably giving the meaning of Holy Scripture, talking non-sense on these topics; and we should take all means to prevent such an embarrassing situation, in which people show up vast ignorance in a Christian and laugh it to scorn. The shame is not so much that an ignorant individual is derided, but that people outside the household of the faith think our sacred writers held such opinions, and, to the great loss of those for whose salvation we toil, the writers of our Scripture are criticized and rejected as unlearned men. If they find a Christian mistaken in a field which they themselves know well and hear him maintaining his foolish opinions about our books, how are they going to believe those books in matters concerning the resurrection of the dead, the hope of eternal life, and the kingdom of heaven, when they think their pages are full of falsehoods on facts which they themselves have learnt from experience and the light of reason? Reckless and incompetent expounders of holy Scripture bring untold trouble and sorrow on their wiser brethren when they are caught in one of their mischievous false opinions and are taken to task by those who are not bound by the authority of our sacred books. For then, to defend their utterly foolish and obviously untrue statements, they will try to call upon Holy Scripture for proof and even recite from memory many passages which they think support their position, although “they understand neither what they say nor the things about which they make assertion.”

Is there a time frame on reviewing and considering?

At what point does the Catholic church call off further review and consideration?


DeusVult
DeusVult's avatar
Debates: 0
Posts: 107
0
1
1
DeusVult's avatar
DeusVult
0
1
1
-->
@RoderickSpode
Jesus also said He was the Vine, and the Door. Why couldn't His reference to bread and wine be figurative?
I'll give one Old Testament and two New Testament reasons.

The Old Testament is a prefigurement of the New.  The Jews had to eat the Passover Sacrifice.  Here Christians have to eat the Passover sacrifice - the body and blood of Jesus.

In the New Testament the 3 synoptic Gospels all have the clear institution of the Eucharist, where Jesus says “This is My body which is given for you; do this in remembrance of Me” &  “This cup which is poured out for you is the new covenant in My blood.".  Now if you look at the Gospel of John he doesn't have the last supper in his Gospel.  John instead discusses the feeding of 5,000 for truth of the real presence.

Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; he who comes to Me will not hunger, and he who believes in Me will never thirst...

“Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life. “I am the bread of life. “Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died. “This is the bread which comes down out of heaven, so that one may eat of it and not die. “I am the living bread that came down out of heaven; if anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread also which I will give for the life of the world is My flesh.”...

Then the Jews began to argue with one another, saying, “How can this man give us His flesh to eat?” So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in yourselves. “He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day. “For My flesh is true food, and My blood is true drink. “He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him. “As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who eats Me, he also will live because of Me. “This is the bread which came down out of heaven; not as the fathers ate and died; he who eats this bread will live forever.”

Here Jesus, says he is bread of life.  The Jews grumble.  Then he goes one step further saying that he is the bread and that you have to eat of this bread.  The Jews began to argue.  So  Jesus goes full bore.  He says truly, truly - i.e. I am literally saying unless you eat (and the word eat used in John is the word to gnaw like an animal on a bone) the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in yourselves.

So what happens?  Many of his followers leave him.  Now does Jesus stop them or clarify his teaching?  Nope.  He doubles down again.  He turns to the 12 and asks them are you going to leave also?  He doesn't back down, he doesn't clarify.  He meant exactly what he said.

The most ironic thing I have found in the bible is that those who turned away from believing that Jesus is truly present in the Eucharist is this verse:

As a result of this many of His disciples withdrew and were not walking with Him anymore.  John 6:66   It is the only 666 verse in the new testament.

So how does the early Church view the Eucharist?  

Therefore whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner, shall be guilty of the body and the blood of the Lord. But a man must examine himself, and in so doing he is to eat of the bread and drink of the cup. For he who eats and drinks, eats and drinks judgment to himself if he does not judge the body rightly.  - 1 Corinthians 11:27-29

If the Eucharist were symbolic, you could not be so bring judgment on yourself for being guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.  However, if it truly is the body and blood of Jesus, then you could bring judgement on yourself if you eat it unworthily.