Can God make something he cant lift?

Author: Melcharaz

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#1
Melcharaz
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This is more a thought experiment than an actual discussion. People attribute omnipotence to God and say things like. "He cant make a 4 sided triangle." Or. " he cant make a rock he cant lift." 

But really, isnt this silly? All he would have to do is change meaning of tri angle. And make himself weaker. We humans can do this. So why cant God? 

Consider calvary. Jesus (who was God in flesh) couldnt carry his cross. Now under the idea of omnipotence, this is impossible. But we forget that power to be weak is also a power. We humans can do something similar. 

We can lift weights and over time bench 175 lbs. But if we choose to not exercise or eat right for say, 30 years. We would be so weakened that we cant even get up cause we weigh 400+ pounds. Or the opposite, so fragile and weak, we break bones lifting over 45 lbs.
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@Melcharaz
Sure he can weaken himself, but that isnt the point of the question.

Assuming god can lift infinite weight, we must remember that weight is a number, and infinity is NOT a number. When he creates a weight, he must specify a weight value for his creation, an actual number. And he can lift any number. Thus he cannot create something he cannot lift not because its beyond his power, but because there is no possible number that is equal to or greater than infinity. Whatever weight he creates, he can lift it.
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@ MELCHARAZ

This is more a thought experiment than an actual discussion. People attribute omnipotence to God and say things like. "He cant make a 4 sided triangle." Or. " he cant make a rock he cant lift." 

But really, isnt this silly? All he would have to do is change meaning of tri angle. And make himself weaker. We humans can do this. So why cant God? 


Yes! we know!!!!

Indeed, the  apologist for the bible are forever changing words and their meanings to the biblical scriptures to fit their arguments and agenda.  I was told here once that when the bible says "touch"  it actually means "light". I have also been told that when the bible or god says "kill" , it doesn't mean kill".  But one of my favorites of the apologists is that when the bible and god state that he/god created "everything" and "all things"  it doesn't actually mean that god created " everything" and "all things".  Which blows a whole clean through the creation story right there, doesn't it?


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@Melcharaz
It is a silly question when you consider that when you lift any object, you have actually moved the entire Earth.  The movement is such that the centre of gravity remains the same.

Now the movement of the planet is ridiculously small due to the relative mass of the two objects, but you do move the entire earth.
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@Nemiroff
Cool post. God would be considered a maximal Being, that can do whatever is possible. 
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#6
Melcharaz
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Assuming god can lift infinite weight, we must remember that weight is a number, and infinity is NOT a number. 

Infinite
limitless or endless in space, extent, or size; impossible to measure or calculate.

Number
an arithmetical value, expressed by a word, symbol, or figure, representing a particular quantity and used in counting and making calculations and for showing order in a series or for identification.

Infinite isnt something that cant be measured, just something that has no end to being measured.  A number after all is basically language that asserts a value.  Saying infinite and using infinite symbol are the same. 

This how ever goes into a different topic. And i discourage this conversation in this thread.

#7
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this question is another way of asking, 'can an unstoppable force move an immovable object'? it sets up an illogical scenario however you frame it. the way i answer this, is that can make an unstoppable force, or he can make an immovable object, but he can't do both at the same time. so the key is time. God can create a rock he can't lift, or he can lift any rock, but it's illogical to say he can do both at the same time. 
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He can do both at the same time. He just has to be in a weaker vessel. Jesus both could and couldnt bear his cross. He couldnt because he was weakened. God can do anything he wants. Its man's lack of knowledge of God that imposes limits.

You wouldnt say that you cant and can lift 2 lbs at the same time, would you?
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#10
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The only thing God cannot do, is what he said he would not do. Because of his nature and choice.
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@Melcharaz
A 4 sided triangle would not be a triangle, and why would God make something he couldn't lift, this kind of thinking is just grabbing at straws.
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#12
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We use sides as a factor of understanding. Again, you let what you think you know, limit God. Even the bible says he can do everything.
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#13
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Logic is under him, not equal or above him
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it also depends on whether u think God can be illogical or not. if he can be illogical, then there's no limit on him and it's not possible to make sense of anything related to God and limits. if God can't be illogical, see my last post. 
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@n8nrgmi
You cannot give what you do not have.  Thus if you have logic, it is necessary for God to have logic in order for Him to have given it to you.
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The point of the question is to play word games. One word game is by saying Can God make a 4 sided triangle, well no he cannot. That is just word salad at that point. No different than asking "Can God purple a bird kitchen toilet platoon?" It doesn't mean anything just a random spattering of words, it also relies on the incorrect definition of omnipotent, which does not mean "capable of anything", and really just means "most high". 


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@Stephen
  But one of my favorites of the apologists is that when the bible and god state that he/god created "everything" and "all things"  it doesn't actually mean that god created " everything" and "all things".  Which blows a whole clean through the creation story right there, doesn't it?
The bible was not written in english and the english words used in place of the greek and hebrew words in the bible are often rough approximations, so it is fair to say that when the bible says "everything and all things", the precise meaning is going to have a lot to do with the original language used and in fact ancient hebrew is more of a vague language than greek or english, so there will be some issues with precision.
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@Singularity
The bible was not written in english and the english words used in place of the greek and hebrew words in the bible are often rough approximations.

So then, what do you propose the words "all" and  "things" and "everything" mean , in ancient Hebrew?


And how many times have you heard a theist say the words  " I only need the bible"?  Would this be the same  bible that doesn't actually state what it actually means then?
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@Malcharaz

You let what you think you know.


Yep you do.
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@EtrnlVw
I like to refer to it as "god cant do the illogical," such as create a value greater than infinity or create an object with exactly 3 corners and exactly 4 corners at the same time. God cannot do the absurd, because absurdities arent things, they are just word play.
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@Stephen

So then, what do you propose the words "all" and  "things" and "everything" mean , in ancient Hebrew?

Tell me the exact location of the words, so I can more easily pinpoint it. Depending on their locations a different Hebrew word is often assigned to it. Everything in one part of the book will be translated  from a different word than in other parts. 


And how many times have you heard a theist say the words  " I only need the bible"?  Would this be the same  bible that doesn't actually state what it actually means then?

I am sure they are referring to the same bible.  The problem is they are referring to an English translation because you probably don't speak the dead ancient hebrew language it was translated from, so the English translation is a good reference point for you and them.  Not a precise one, but decent. 

Let me just give some examples. Sometimes the word hell is seen in the bible. When translated from the New Testament it is often translated from the word meaning Hades in Greek. This is a literal underworld of the dead. When you see the word in the old testament, it is sometimes translated from the Hebrew word Sheol, which literally means place underneath the dirt. It would probably be more accurate to translate it to grave. 


So if a Christian is running to the bible for answers, I would advise them to also consult some bible scholars so they can accurately understand what they are reading. 





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@Singularity




Let me just give some examples. Sometimes the word hell is seen in the bible. When translated from the New Testament it is often translated from the word meaning Hades in Greek. This is a literal underworld of the dead. When you see the word in the old testament, it is sometimes translated from the Hebrew word Sheol, which literally means place underneath the dirt. It would probably be more accurate to translate it to grave. 

So all those words I have highlighted in your quote above all mean the same thing. They don't mean anything different.   Or  are trying to tell me they are all different when in truth these words all have the same meaning :  buried and in  the grave.



Tell me the exact location of the words, so I can more easily pinpoint it

 Did god create "all things" or not?

The Christian bible says: 



“You alone are the Lord.
You have made the heavens,
The heaven of heavens with all their host,
The earth and all that is on it,
The seas and all that is in them.
You give life to all of them
And the heavenly host bows down before You.



“For My hand made all these things,
Thus all these things came into being,” declares the Lord.


and to bring to light what is the administration of the mystery which for ages has been hidden in God who created all things;



For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him.

So;  simply tell me what the Ancient Hebrew means for "all things" and why- if at all - the Ancient Hebrew meaning is different from the Christian bible meaning.  


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@Stephen
So all those words I have highlighted in your quote above all mean the same thing. They don't mean anything different.   Yet you  are trying to tell me they are all different when in truth these words all have the same meaning. buried and in  the grave.

No, you misread. I would work on your reading comprehension skills. Sheol means under ground, like a grave.

Hades is a supernatural underworld where living entities exist such as the devil and fallen Angel's. 

The word all in the context you provided seems to mean the english equivalent. I assume you were arguing with some theist about whether god created evil things and the christian claimed that he didn't.  This person would be incorrect.  The bible is clear that god created all things, both good and evil. 


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@Stephen
You did ask at the end why it would be translated differently. I think this just may be an IQ thing and why you have trouble understanding. Concepts are encapsulated within words okay. English has words for things that don't exist in french, and Visa versa. These are both Latin based languages. Now imagine that ancient hebrew is not completely understood and vastly different from english. The problems with translation can be about 20 fold. We also have the problem compounded by the bible making some uncomfortable statements and in order to sell them to Christian's the bible sometimes needs to be translated in a comfortable way. Which is why in Genesis many say "man was created in my image" when it would be more accurate to translate it "man was made in our image" . 
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@Singularity
So all those words I have highlighted in your quote above all mean the same thing. They don't mean anything different.   Yet you  are trying to tell me they are all different when in truth these words all have the same meaning. buried and in  the grave.

No, you misread. I would work on your reading comprehension skills. Sheol means under ground, like a grave.

 There is no reason to be rude. Are you saying that to be underground in Sheol is only LIKE  being buried in a grave?  Or is it simply that you are trying to fudge the question.  Sheol (/ˈʃiːoʊl/ SHEE-ohl, /-əl/; Hebrew: שְׁאוֹל Šəʾōl), in the Hebrew Bible, is a place of darkness to which spirits of the dead go. 

Hades is a supernatural underworld where living entities exist such as the devil and fallen Angel's.


And for one to be in  the "supernatural underworld" known as Hades, would they be dead by any chance?


 So when the bible says god created "all things" it means exactly the same in ancient Hebrew as it does in the English bible?

How does  ancient Hebrew define the words  "departed spirit"?




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@Stephen
The translation of sheol you provided is wrong. It is a grave .


And for one to be in  the "supernatural underworld" known as Hades, would they be dead by any chance?
Don't be an idiot.  Having you body decay in a grave such as the word Sheol/grave implies is far different than having an immortal soul that resides in hades/hell. 

Sheol is not where spirits go. It is where bodies go. The ancient hebrews  had no concept of hell. 

"All things" in those instances seem derived from a few different hebrew words but the context implies the same meaning. Not sure why that is difficult to grasp

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@Singularity
You did ask at the end why it would be translated differently.

NOPE!  take some of your own advice, " I would work on your reading comprehension skills. " This is what I wrote exactly:
So;  simply tell me what the Ancient Hebrew means for "all things" and why- if at all - the Ancient Hebrew meaning is different from the Christian bible meaning.  #22 last line.

But you have answered that question and made it absolutely clear that there is absolutely no difference between the Hebrew meaning of "all things"  and the English meaning in the context that they are written..



I think this just may be an IQ thing and why you have trouble understanding.

Don't be so fuckin' rude and ignorant. I have asked genuine question. I didn't say ` please insult me if  YOU ARE STRUGGLING TO UNDERSTAND my  question' !



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@Stephen
NOPE!  take some of your own advice, " I would work on your reading comprehension skills. " This is what I wrote exactly:
So;  simply tell me what the Ancient Hebrew means for "all things" and why- if at all - the Ancient Hebrew meaning is different from the Christian bible meaning.  #22 last line.
Yes I reworded what you wrote. I accurately paraphrased that passage. That actually shows reading comprehension mouth breather
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@Singularity
The translation of sheol you provided is wrong. It is a grave .

So one would have to be dead then. AND  It wasn't MY definition.  I got the definition from >>>https://www.google.com/search?q=sheol&rlz=1C1DSGK_en-gbGB437GB453&oq=sh&aqs=chrome.3.69i57j35i39l2j0l2j69i60l2j69i61.12176j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8  BUT IT STILL REQUIRES ONE TO BE DEAD doesn't it! Inother words all of those words you spouted ALL mean the same thing. SEE #22

 


And for one to be in  the "supernatural underworld" known as Hades, would they be dead by any chance?
Don't be an idiot.  Having you body decay in a grave such as the word Sheol/grave implies is far different than having an immortal soul that resides in hades/hell. 

 More insults, what's that matter with you. These words  ALL mean grave. I am not disputing that, but you seem to be here. Singularity   #21





Sheol is not where spirits go. It is where bodies go. The ancient hebrews  had no concept of hell. 

I didn't say it was , " I would work on your reading comprehension skills. "



"All things" in those instances seem derived from a few different hebrew words but the context implies the same meaning.

And thank you for confirming that "in those [BIBLICAL} instances"  they mean exactly the same in Hebrew.


Not sure why that is difficult to grasp

I have never had any problem grasping that at all, ever .  That will be your fellow Christians who  have trouble with it. They just can't seem to grasp that when the bible or god says "all things",  that  it, and he, means ALL THINGS!!


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@Singularity
NOPE!  take some of your own advice, " I would work on your reading comprehension skills. " This is what I wrote exactly:
So;  simply tell me what the Ancient Hebrew means for "all things" and why- if at all - the Ancient Hebrew meaning is different from the Christian bible meaning.  #22 last line.
Yes I reworded what you wrote.

Doctored!


I accurately paraphrased that passage.

missing out the important part of  "IF AT ALL"


[A] -->@Singularity wrote; You did ask at the end why it would be translated differently.

NOPE!! This is what I wrote.  : >>>>>> So;  simply tell me what the Ancient Hebrew means for "all things" and why- if at all - the Ancient Hebrew meaning is different from the Christian bible meaning.  #22 last line.

What you did was rewrite and doctor the question , see [A]  above.  I didn't even suggest that it was "translated differently"  , YOU did that. My question was simple and it was clear. Like I have said, take some of your own pompous advice and " work on your reading comprehension skills. "