God created evil first. Think about it.

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I have spent many years contemplating this issue and at first, I realised the easy solution that atheists use which is to say that God is equally responsible for evil as good and therefore isn't a good guy/chick/thing.

The fundamental cause of good is that evil must be stopped. Think hard about this. In a situation where everyone is neutral, you can't be a good person because the others will repay you back anyway, negating how good you are. If everyone gives as good as they get and acts reasonable, noone and nothing needs to be good at all. What this then means is that the only genuinely active agents, morally, are the evil ones.

In a scenario where everyone is neutral and one evil person shows up, it then means that there is a victim or two and the others staying neutral hurts that person and causes that person to need to be evil in order to even things out again and have equal wealth and health to the others. Thus, the opportunity to be good to that victim and/or be evil to the evildoer only arises due to the initial active evil agent. You can only have good be viable due to the evil breaking away from the default of neutrality. 

God must have first created us selfish and brutal, not the other way around, and what happened was that he/she/it discovered the true beauty lies in having good people to prevent the evil.



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@RationalMadman.

It's unlikely that a true atheist would care about such things.

A true atheist would say that good and evil are simply variable human concepts.

Even some deists might come to the same conclusion.

Various deists might consider good and evil differently...This would largely depend upon where when and how they were formatively conditioned.

Some Christian deists might say that God created us and just left us to get on with things....This would seem pretty logical, as this is what we actually do.....So if I "think about it" and if I was less sceptical of fantastical creation hypotheses,  I would probably concur with this logical Christian approach.

Just be tolerant and respectful of others....There we are, that's my advice....No god required.
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@zedvictor4
I agree, usually atheists are as ignorant and wilfully refusing to think in-depth about the morality of God as Theists themselves are.

I am tolerant of this, what I want is to come to a place on the Internet where people like to chat about it and not be told to stfu and move on like I will everywhere else.

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@RationalMadman
If everyone gives as good as they get and acts reasonable,
The Law of the Prophets Matthew 7:12.


.....and one evil person shows up, it then means that there is a victim or two

"But I tell you not to resist an evil person. But whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also". Matthew 5:39


God must have first created us selfish and brutal, not the other way around, and what happened was that he/she/it discovered the true beauty lies in having good people to prevent the evil.

 Why did god seem to have terminated Satan's punishment of crawling on his belly &  eating dirt for the rest of his days?

"You will crawl on your belly and you will eat dust all the days of your life". Genesis 3:14
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@Stephen
I am talking about god of reality, not that fictional character but the actual god.

Even if we take the Christian God, who is said to have made good first so isn't the god I am referring to, we see the same dilemma. Evil came first, logically.

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RationalMadman,

YOUR QUOTE: "God must have first created us selfish and brutal, not the other way around, and what happened was that he/she/it discovered the true beauty lies in having good people to prevent the evil."


NO!  Yahweh/Jesus/Ghost did not create Adam and Eve selfish and brutal at the beginning of Creation, because they were sinless at the start of creation within the contradicting Genesis chapters one and two. It was the insidious women that created evil first by not following YJG to stay away from the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge, and then she passed it on to Adam by giving him the forbidden fruit. This is the start of how women are to be looked down upon as 2nd class citizens within the scriptures because Eve transgressed first. Therefore, since Eve screwed up first, Yahweh/Jesus/Ghost gave Eve severe pain in her future child birth, and made it so that Adam would rule over as the man. Again, where women are to be  2nd class citizens, praise!


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@BrotherDThomas
The most ironic part, if you know enough about Jewish Pagan stories, is that it was also a complete lie that Eve was the first female to sin, rather Lilith was and she was deemed to be a non-human succubus (even though physiologically she could reproduce with humans and even produce fertile half-demon offspring making her a different breed that's in our species).

Also interestingly, due to Adam resisting Lilith, the test with Eve and the apple was his second test, not his first. The storyline doesn't add up once you know of the Pagan side of things.

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RationalMadman,

I am so sorry that you had to BLOCK ME from conversing with you in the normal way upon this forum. Certain members have to perform this insidious act, like you have done, when they can’t discuss matters that I have given them, but to only run away from them instead. Nonetheless, I will address your continued bible ignorance below:

Your quote that falls flat upon its face relative to my post to you herein: “Don't call my bluff too readily though, I will floor you with my superiority.”


YOUR BIBLE IGNORANCE HAS NO BOUNDS IN YOUR POST #7 QUOTE: "......it was also a complete lie that Eve was the first female to sin, rather Lilith was ..... ".

1. In the contradicting creation narratives, EVE WAS THE FIRST WOMEN TO APPEAR ON PLANET EARTH! Therefore, Lilith is a moot issue!

2. Eve transgressed first and was the FIRST female to sin, not Lilith, period! “And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner.”  (1 Timothy 2:14)

3. You stating that the fruit was an apple is in no way supported within the scriptures, it was referred to as "the forbidden fruit!"

4. The "pagan side of things" that you erroneously stated is a moot issue relative to the Creation of the FIRST Man and Woman in Genesis one and two.  Understand? Get it? Huh?


You are excused once again with your complete ignorance of the scriptures.


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@BrotherDThomas
It is a matter of semantics to deny that a female demon of the succubus variety, who can reproduce with humans, isn't a woman of sorts. 
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@RationalMadman
God created evil first.

Not that I agree with a single thing that you have wrote on this matter, but what difference does it make? 1st or 2nd?
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@Stephen
If God created evil first, it means that God didn't know how to undo evil without ruining what we are.

It is very difficult to create beings with individuality and not creating the evil ones among them. The idea being that God ensured there'd be heroes to balance out the villains with a hindsight aspect.

The opposite would mean that God got so bored of us all caring and sharing that he/she/it intentionally made the evil ones be that way, in order for the 'show' to get more fun to watch.

I did believe this latter version for a long time but I am beginning to realise that God could have made reality far, far crueller if this was the overall aim, whereas God can't have made reality much nicer without making us all clones.
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RationalMadman,

Semantics aside for logical reasoning, reread my post #8 because you seemingly DID NOT grasp its full content relative to your outright mistakes concerning your topic!


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@BrotherDThomas
You are fixated on the Bible, I am not even asserting that the Biblical god is the god I am talking about. That is the primary cause of our misunderstanding.

While you may think you are funny or intriguing with the way you pretend to be a Christian fundamentalist in order to mock them, I find it dull and irritating.
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I am talking about god of reality, not that fictional character but the actual god.
And where did you come across this particular god?


If God created evil first, it means that God didn't know how to undo evil without ruining what we are.

If this god was able to create us, then he could just simply scrap his first model and recreate us all over again , perfect like the  biblical god is said to have done. Or is this god not as clever as the biblical god.

And you mentioned nothing about this particular god at all in your OP. Was that so you could just state anything in your defense concerning your thoughts, opinions or theory about this god that only you seem to know  there by leaving you holding all the cards , so to speak.



It is very difficult to create beings with individuality
I think you'll find society, surroundings and upbringing create individuality.....




.......and not creating the evil ones among them. The idea being that God ensured there'd be heroes to balance out the villains with a hindsight aspect.

Can you offer any evidence for those claims? Such as what material caused you to have this opinion about a god that only you seem to know.

P>S> It is so rude to have members on block when you can respond to their comments but they are unable to reply to your own, RationalMadman






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RationalMadman,

Your blatant assertion that you don't know in what God you are talking about speaks volumes where this is beyond any misunderstandings that YOU unfortunately possess!  

I don't pretend to be a Christian, because I am the ONLY TRUE Christian upon this forum relative to Jesus' Bible, bar none!  What I find dull and irritating, is the fact that you are so biblically ignorant, but yet you continue to bring forth your continued Bible ignorance as if it was a proud badge to wear! Surely you jest?  

May I suggest that to save yourself any further embarrassment as I have explicitly shown in my post #8 towards you,  just leave the Bible God of Jesus and His doctrine on the sidelines in your future posts, because you do not warrant any further discussion upon them, understood?  Yeah, you do.

You are excused.

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@Stephen
Not at all. Society and upbringing foster the opposite of individuality; conformity and mediocrity.
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@BrotherDThomas
I didn't even mention the Bible at all in this thread until you and Stephen did. You're the one who can kindly fuck off, I am not one to run scared. I don't care what you do to me, I promise you of that.
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@RationalMadman
You haven't addressed the questions I asked you. 
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RationalMadman,

YOUR LEADING QUOTE:  I didn't even mention the Bible at all in this thread until you and Stephen did."

Because of you not knowing in which God you were referring too in your embarrassing initial post, I felt that since you were floundering around like a fish out of water, I should "throw you a bone" and mention the Christian Yahweh/Jesus/ Ghost God since this is a Religion Forum. Your metaphysical constructs and unsubstantiated propositions seemingly are not vouchsafed in peer reviews, other than pure speculation and hearsay on your part, get it?   Besides,  you referenced Yahweh/Jesus/Ghost in your post #5! Whoops!

YOUR FOUL LANGUAGE IN OBVIOUS DEFEAT TO THE BROTHER D!: " ...... You're the one who can kindly fuck off, I am not one to run scared ......."

Barring your despicable little boy language, YOU have RUN SCARED by blocking me from normally posting to you, H-e-l-l-o, anybody home today? LOL


RM, from this time forward, shhhhhhhhhhhh.


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@BrotherDThomas
RM, from this time forward, shhhhhhhhhhhh.
I'm not the one coming to the other's thread and harassing them while pretending to be a Christian just to mock and taunt them. You have absolutely zero positive impact on the website and its community and I am not afraid to call you out, I just don't go looking for a fight when there isn't one.

You came to my thread decided to bring up the Bible and troll, told me to get lost and shut up and think I am in the wrong. You are a bully and I will not bow down to you. This is actually a nice website to debate on and I am not going to go silent on it because of some threats by you.
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RationalMadman,

YOUR LYING POST TOWARDS ME!!:  "  told me to get lost and shut up and think I am in the wrong .... I am not going to go silent on it because of some threats by you."


LISTEN UP, barring the fact that you are WRONG in your comical inferences to the Bible, where have I allegedly performed your incidents above in my posts #6, 8, 12, 15, and 19?!  YOU ARE A BLATANT LIAR IN FRONT OF THE MEMBERSHIP in your vain attempt to try and save face in your comical biblical ignorance!

DEBATEART, TAKE NOTICE OF RATIONALMADMAN TURNING INTO A COMPLETE LIAR HERE ON THIS FORUM!  WHERE WILL HE HIDE IN DISGRACE?


Pathetic little boy antics, what did I expect? What was shown by RM in taking a LYING stance!


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@BrotherDThomas
Aside from the 'stop and shhhh' that I quoted are a plethora of examples of you doing the same thing to EtrnlVw and many more.

I do not need to quote your bullying, I simply report it and let others find out yoyr abuse for themselves. I didn't cone to you seeking a fight, you came seeking one with me. All you do is yell and taunt.

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evil is good and evil is pursuied for good reasons in peoples mind
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@Dr.Franklin
Can you please elaborate on what you are saying?
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@RationalMadman
a man steals to get money, he is pursuing the good thing of earning money but does it in a evil way
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This argument seems a bit like the chicken and egg question, which never made sense to me since an egg exists only because there was first the complete organism of all parts in which an egg ultimately developed as a means of procreation. But there is no beginning chicken, either. There have always been chickens. Trying to determine a first beginning status of good and evil is almost as unsatisfying because eternity is a construct of not only an infinite future, but also an infinite past, and the pair of concepts, good and evil, which are, after all, not physical constructed pieces of any being, but ideas of relevance occurring to beings. They are, as time itself, also co-extant in eternity.
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RATIONALMADMAN.,

I thought you said you NEVER ran away? What gives? You have completely RUN AWAY from the FACT that when I have called you out for LYING about me when I didn't within this thread, you insidiously put forth smoke screens to try in vain to HIDE BEHIND your embarrassment in front of the membership by adamantly seeing that you were WRONG in calling me a LIAR!  

YOUR POST # 20 OF WHICH I WILL SAVE TO PROVE THAT YOU ARE A LIAR!

1. YOU STATED THAT I TOLD YOU TO GET LOST ....  LIE!
2. YOU STATED THAT I TOLD YOU TO SHUT UP ....  LIE!
3. YOU STATED THAT I THREATENED YOU ....  LIE!

Now, sheepishly exit stage right to save yourself further embarrassment here at DEBATEART Religion Forum! Now we see what your TRUE Modus Operandi truly is, A LIAR!




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@fauxlaw
Assuming you're Christian (based also on your profile) there is no reason whatsoever to believe in an infinite past. 

Infinite past is possible if the entire timeline has an ending that is the beginning, that's the only way it's viable (so reality plays over and over again)

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@BrotherDThomas
I do run, I just don't run scared. When I run, it's because the other is not worth my time and energy.
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@RationalMadman
My OED defines eternal as:  "a. Infinite in past and future duration; without beginning or end; that always has existed and always will exist" I take it at its word. Only a finite mind cannot conceive eternity. Being a Christian, why must I reject an infinite past? Make it good, because I'm no 6-day creationist.