Scathing critique of Karl Marx.

Author: Greyparrot

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#31
HistoryBuff
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@ILikePie5
If they ignored it, they should’ve backed off lol. They chose to support the Austrians anyways.
When the Kaiser realized the Austrians had ignored Germany's advice, he pushed for the Austrians to accept the Serbian's response. 

Well ya, but that’s not what I’m saying. I’m saying even if Austria attacked earlier, the Russians would’ve come to the defense of Serbia.
Why? If the Austrians had attacked right away, it would have been seen internationally as Austria defending itself against serbian aggression. The French would have stayed out and the Russians would have had no chance of beating Austria/Germany. So Russia would have stayed out too. 

If the Germans kept their mouth shut and sued for peace then the Austrians never would’ve declared war on Serbia. The only reason the Austrians attacked was because of the blank check provided by the Kaiser.
The Kaiser did try to get the Austrians to accept the Serbian response to the Austrian demands. They also tried to get the Russians to stop mobilizing since the Russian mobilization meant Germany had to attack. The Austrians wanted war and the Russians wouldn't stop their mobilization. That left germany with no choice but to attack. 

So the Germans didn’t ensue for peace lol. It doesn’t matter what the Kaiser wanted. Germany still as a nation rejected the peace. 
The leader of germany wanted peace. He pressured the austrians to make peace. He pressured the Russians to stop mobilizing so that Germany wouldn't have to go to war. Both the Austrians and the Russians ignored him. 

You misunderstand the nature of the alliance between Russia and France. France wouldn’t have come in unless the Germans did. The Russians didn’t need the French helping them if the Germans stayed out of it lol. 
I have not mistaken that. You have mistaken the Alliance between Germany and Austria. When Austria attacked Serbia and if Russia responded, then Germany was required by their treaty to defend Austria against Russia. The Alliance between France and Russia would then require France to defend Russia against Germany. So germany would not be able to stay out if russia intervened. 

Without Germany in the mixture, the war would’ve solely involved the Russians, Serbs, and Austrians, and in this scenario the Austrians would’ve lost and they knew it. If Germany had rejected Austrian demand then WWI wouldn’t have happened.
This doesn't make sense. The germans were required by treaty to defend Austria against the russians. 

Nope, the Russians would’ve come to their aid anyways. The Russians didn’t want conflict with Germany. They didn’t want conflict with the Austrians. If the Austrians has attacked, the Russians would’ve come, that’s practically certain since they had been supporting the Serbs since the beginning of the 20th century.
The russians had backed down to germany multiple times. There is no reason to think they wouldn't have done so again if they thought France wasn't going to back them up. Russia would have been annihilated by Germany. 

They only declared war because of the unconditional support by the Germans lol.
You are straight up admitting it is Austria's fault. The Austrians declared war and triggered WW1. The Germans did what allies are supposed to do, they helped to defend their ally. They phrased their support badly, but the Austrians triggered the war. It is really straight forward. I'm not sure why you keep pretending like is it somehow Germany's fault that the Austrians wanted a war with Russia. 
#32
ILikePie5
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@HistoryBuff
When the Kaiser realized the Austrians had ignored Germany's advice, he pushed for the Austrians to accept the Serbian's response. 
Irrelevant. He failed and Germans didn’t accept peace.

Why? If the Austrians had attacked right away, it would have been seen internationally as Austria defending itself against serbian aggression. The French would have stayed out and the Russians would have had no chance of beating Austria/Germany. So Russia would have stayed out too.
See that’s the thing, if Germany was out of the picture then it wouldn’t have mattered. The Austrians didn’t want the Russians to come and that’s why they asked for German help. If Austria didn’t ask the Germans they couldn’t attack thus preventing the war.

The Kaiser did try to get the Austrians to accept the Serbian response to the Austrian demands. They also tried to get the Russians to stop mobilizing since the Russian mobilization meant Germany had to attack. The Austrians wanted war and the Russians wouldn't stop their mobilization. That left germany with no choice but to attack.
Germany had a choice. To back out, but that was impossible after the blank check was given. The blank check emboldened the Austrians to attack plain and simple.

The leader of germany wanted peace. He pressured the austrians to make peace. He pressured the Russians to stop mobilizing so that Germany wouldn't have to go to war. Both the Austrians and the Russians ignored him.
Irrelevant. Germany didn’t accept the peace negotiations. If they didn’t want war they shouldn’t have provided a blank check. There’s a reason why you never give anyone a blank check lol.

I have not mistaken that. You have mistaken the Alliance between Germany and Austria. When Austria attacked Serbia and if Russia responded, then Germany was required by their treaty to defend Austria against Russia. The Alliance between France and Russia would then require France to defend Russia against Germany. So germany would not be able to stay out if russia intervened.
Then what was the purpose of the blank check lol. The Dual Alliance was only if Russia was the aggressor on either Austria Hungary or Germany. The Austrians became the aggressors after the blank check. If the Germans had said no, we want peace and kept to the terms of the alliance, there wouldn’t have been the war.

This doesn't make sense. The germans were required by treaty to defend Austria against the russians. 
If the Russians were the primary aggressors which they weren’t. The Austrians attacked the Serbs first which lead to the Russians coming.

The russians had backed down to germany multiple times. There is no reason to think they wouldn't have done so again if they thought France wasn't going to back them up. Russia would have been annihilated by Germany.
France would back them up if the Germans attacked lol, that was what the Franco-Russian alliance was over.

You are straight up admitting it is Austria's fault. The Austrians declared war and triggered WW1. The Germans did what allies are supposed to do, they helped to defend their ally. They phrased their support badly, but the Austrians triggered the war. It is really straight forward. I'm not sure why you keep pretending like is it somehow Germany's fault that the Austrians wanted a war with Russia.
Then you don’t understand what the Dual Alliance was. It was a defense alliance. Not an offensive alliance. If the Russians came to defend the Serbs, Germany was not obligated to respond; that’s why Austria Hungary asked the Germans and they gave the blank check. The Germans thought the Russians were bluffing about helping Serbia and gave away the blank check. Without this assurance by the Germans, the Austrians wouldn’t have attacked the Serbs.
#33
Stephen
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@HistoryBuff
So how would you have kept the Muslim Ottomans/Turks out of this war which was an underlying problem to begin with .
have you switched topics? We were discussing whether the Germans were responsible for starting the war. Your question has nothing to do with that. 


Now that is not true is it? The thread is actually about " Scathing critique of Karl Marx, Author: Greyparrot,2 days ago".   But we are discussing how YOU would have ended the first world war as it was you that brought  WW 1 into the conversation saying " ww2 was a result of ww1" #19. I happen to agree with with that. But then you stated how you would have "ended that conflict (ww1) by " trying to solve the underlying problems that led to ww1 known as  the "The Great War". 

Where you say :

HistoryBuff wrote:  was a response to the crippling and heavy handed way the allies ended WW1.
Stephen wrote:  , "heavy handed " ?  You are hilarious at times.How would you have ended it?
HistoryBuff wrote: By trying to solve the underlying problems that led to the war. WW 1 started because of a complex series of alliances coupled with imperialism.

I have asked you ; So how would you have kept the Muslim Ottomans/Turks out of this war which was one of those  "underlying problems" that you mention, to begin with?  I asked this because The Muslim Ottoman Empire came into World War I as one of the Central Powers and were the cause of RUSSIA joining the war.

And now you seems to be crying that I am questioning you on your own statement concerning addressing "the underlying problems that led to the war" and that I have "switched topics" !!!. 

 WW1 started in July 28, 1914. Russia joined the conflict 5 November 1914. The Muslim Ottoman Empire's entry into World War I began when two recently purchased ships of its navy, still manned by their German crews and commanded by their German admiral, carried out the Black Sea Raid, a surprise attack against Russian ports, on 29 October 1914.  Now, do you see what I am getting at here? 

"The underlying problems" that YOU say you would have tried to solve has to include the Muslim Ottoman problem that provoked Russia into the the war. 

So can you manage an answer or do you wish to sweep the problem of the Ottoman Muslims part in the conflict under the carpet and pretend that I never asked it  in the first place?  Keeping in mind that this Muslim Empire was one of the Central Powers in the war  before Russia.

In case you have forgot:  So how would you have kept the Muslim Ottomans/Turks out of this war which was an underlying problem to begin with ? .#22




#34
Stephen
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@ILikePie5
Muslim Empires are never bad you islamophobe #23
A significant number of people in the former Kingdom of Bosnia converted to Islam after the conquest by the Ottoman Empire in the second half of the 15th century. 


Gavrilo Princip..........He was a Bosnian by nationality but a Serb in terms of ethnicity.#25
 For hundreds of years, Islam ruled supreme in Serbia.
#35
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@Stephen
WW1 started in July 28, 1914. Russia joined the conflict 5November 1914.
What’s your source for this? The Russians joined the conflict as soon as Austria Hungary attacked Serbia.
#36
Stephen
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There are conflicting dates.  I have found other sources that suggest  August and another stating July and various days of November.. 

I was actually looking for a date that linked the Muslim Turks to the conflict. Regardless. The importance from my stand point is that Turkey was involved and was one of the Central Powers.  I want to know how HB would have " solved the underlying problems"  of the Turkish Muslim involvement.



The Ottoman Empire's entry into World War I began when two recently purchased ships of its navy, still manned by their German crews and commanded by their German admiral, carried out the Black Sea Raid, a surprise attack against Russian ports, on 29 October 1914....... Russia replied by declaring war on 1 November 1914 and Russia's allies, Britain and France, then declared war on the Ottoman Empire on 5 November 1914. The reasons for the Ottoman action were not immediately clear.[1][2]


If you were to tell me that entering the war is different to actually declaring war then I can accept that. I am still left with how HB would go about solving "the underlying problems"  of the Turkish Muslim involvement.
#37
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@Stephen
I have asked you ; So how would you have kept the Muslim Ottomans/Turks out of this war which was one of those  "underlying problems" that you mention, to begin with?  I asked this because The Muslim Ottoman Empire came into World War I as one of the Central Powers and were the cause of RUSSIA joining the war.
lol you clearly do not know very much about WW 1. The ottomans joined the war 3 months after Germany had declared war on Russia. And Germany declared war on Russia because they wouldn't stop mobilizing in response to Austria attacking Serbia. 

The Ottomans were not involved in the start of the war. They got involved because they signed an alliance with Germany. 

And now you seems to be crying that I am questioning you on your own statement concerning addressing "the underlying problems that led to the war" and that I have "switched topics" !!!. 
Since your comments don't make sense, I thought you had changed topic. But I now see you simply don't know what you are talking about since you seemed to think the Ottomans were involved in starting the war. 

"The underlying problems" that YOU say you would have tried to solve has to include the Muslim Ottoman problem that provoked Russia into the the war. 
again, no. The Russians mobilized to protect Serbia from Austria. The Germans declared war on Russia when they wouldn't stop their mobilization. The start of the war has nothing to do with the ottomans. 

So can you manage an answer or do you wish to sweep the problem of the Ottoman Muslims part in the conflict under the carpet and pretend that I never asked it  in the first place?  Keeping in mind that this Muslim Empire was one of the Central Powers in the war  before Russia.
What? I have already told you they joined the war 3 months after Russia, France, Austria and Germany were at war. So how exactly were they in the war before Russia?

Russia replied by declaring war on 1 November 1914 and Russia's allies, Britain and France, then declared war on the Ottoman Empire on 5 November 1914. 
this is Russia declaring war on the Ottomans, not Russia declaring war on Germany. They had been at war with Germany and Austria for 3 months already by this point. 
#38
Stephen
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@HistoryBuff
I have asked you ; So how would you have kept the Muslim Ottomans/Turks out of this war which was one of those  "underlying problems" that you mention, to begin with?  I asked this because The Muslim Ottoman Empire came into World War I as one of the Central Powers and were the cause of RUSSIA joining the war.
. The ottomans joined the war 3 months after Germany had declared war on Russia. And Germany declared war on Russia because they wouldn't stop mobilizing in response to Austria attacking Serbia. 

OK.  So going back to how you would have "ended the conflict by solving the underlying problems ",  How would you have kept the Muslim Ottomans/Turks involvement out of this war which was one of those  "underlying problems" that you mention? 



#39
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@Stephen
OK.  So going back to how you would have "ended the conflict by solving the underlying problems ",
The underlying problems were the imperialism of Europe. I'm not entirely certain what the best path to defuse that tension would be. But trying to cripple Germany was obviously not going to work. It was only going to make them come back angrier. 

 How would you have kept the Muslim Ottomans/Turks involvement out of this war which was one of those  "underlying problems" that you mention? 
The Ottomans were not one of the underlying problems. They were the "sick old man" of Europe. They got involved because they had an alliance with the Germans. I really don't know why you keep bringing them up. They were a relatively minor player in the war that had nothing to do with the war starting. Why do you think they are important to this discussion?