I'm not convinced - why are you?

Author: SkepticalOne

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#151
Goldtop
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@Outplayz
Again, this is if you are of the opinion that every single claim of the supernatural is a negative. Remember, technically only one needs to be true for there to be something to it.
Unfortunately, not one has ever been shown to be true, so there is no evidence to date, let alone proof.

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#152
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@bsh1
Thank you for your insights and input. 😁
#153
Swagnarok
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Because in the end, not believing gives you nothing. Absolutely nothing. It gives you temporary relief but nothing in the long term. That's why hardcore atheism will never triumph over the masses.
#154
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Let's be clear: nobody accepts or rejects God simply because of "logic". Logic is a justification, but there are always other reasons. There are things people want, things that trump rationality. Maybe it's a desire to be unique, or to feel yourself superior. Maybe it's the opposite: maybe you're more afraid than you are proud. Afraid of hell, or simply of dying. You can always find some way to justify believing if that's what you want. And those justifications can't be dismissed entirely, so...
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#155
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@Outplayz
Don't misunderstand me, Outplayz. I'm not saying I think all claims of the supernatural are negative, but that I have no evidence to think they have merit. If you have evidence of something but can't share it, only one of us has evidence. That is not being close minded, but accepting evidence available to me to inform a coherent conception of reality.

Also, dont be so quick to say I cant understand where you are coming from. We have much in common - just not this! 😉

#156
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@SkepticalOne
Thanks!

#157
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@Swagnarok
They can be dismissed absolutely but it takes courage to accept that the life you are living is it, the wishful thinking that you wake up when you die is the same as believing in Santa. Grow up, face the facts and have a truly wonderful life. The truth sets you free.
#158
Outplayz
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@SkepticalOne
Don't misunderstand me, Outplayz. I'm not saying I think all claims of the supernatural are negative, but that I have no evidence to think they have merit. If you have evidence of something but can't share it, only one of us has evidence. That is not being close minded, but accepting evidence available to me to inform a coherent conception of reality.
Oh i'm sorry if anything came off as insinuating that your close-minded. I was actually being very cognizant to not say that bc i don't believe you are. I find nothing wrong in being a skeptic. Even myself, having gone through experiences, every time i've heard someone's impossible story i found myself doubting it. There is only a handful or less people i can think of that told me about a spiritual experience that i believed confidently. I am at default also a skeptic.

This is how i look at it. You have never experienced something so i understand the level of skepticism you have. Truly if i never experienced anything i would be the same. But i have so this shapes me differently in a way. Bc i am still guessing for convenience's sake. The experiences i had were pretty profound. Even if i can think critically of them i know i am making stuff up just to have an explanation. The way i look at it is that there is no way i am the only one. It could be, but i doubt i am the only one that has had profound unanswered experiences. So if there are other people that have had profound experiences as well to my level... and a lot of them, it's really hard for me to not consider it. I am assuming that others must have had profound experiences but i don't truly know. It could be somehow i am the only one... but, i don't like the thought of that... it would weird me out even more than i am already for having these experiences. So... i really can't look at it in any other way. But if others have had profound experiences... then it is unquestionable that something is going on, to me. I'm forced to believe this way and consider people's claims.

This answers your merit thing. I have really good reason to believe there is evidence. I get how hard it is for you to change who you are. Your life is shaped just as mine from your experiences or lack thereof in this situation. In one way, this is something really interesting to the point i can find people that have had experiences. I am actually pretty good after listening to someone for a little and their appearance, kinda knowing they may have had an experience. Bc it shapes you differently if it is profound... you can't stop thinking about it. It's kinda like mental abuse to be honest. One question is why do some experience it and some don't? I don't know... i have some ideas though but that's a different topic. With that said, it sounds like you are saying bc you haven't experienced it... then no one has, and/or you can't trust that they have to conclude it's any kind of evidence.  

This is another way i am shaped differently. Not only can i sorta tell someone has, i hunt them down, and this is probably the only topic i care about asking a person when i meet them. I have asked a lot of people.. honestly to put my own mind at ease. Although it still doesn't work bc i am skeptical of their stories even... but, i have heard some really crazy claims. I don't mean to assume, but i don't think this specific question is one that is on your mind when you meet people... i mean, why would it be. Unlike you i'm obsessed with asking people just to get confirmation i am not the only person... and, it doesn't look like i am. I challenge you to make this topic one you ask if you are comfortable too. I have ever since i was old enough to ask... bc my first experiences were as far back as i can remember. So i've asked a lot of people in person which of course helps me read them as well. Although i can't tell if someone is truly lying... the frequency i've heard a claim, and some claims pretty profound... followed by tears in one i specifically remember... it's really hard for me to say there is zero evidence... and especially if i add to this everyone i haven't met. Weak evidence, i admit that... but evidence none the less.     


Also, dont be so quick to say I cant understand where you are coming from. We have much in common - just not this! 😉
Well, i am trying to paint a picture of where i am coming from just so you understand why i truly believe there is evidence. I understand why you don't have this in common with me, but your OP asks why am i convinced... i feel like i should explain that as succinctly as i can. But to be honest it is hard to elucidate bc i know how this has shaped me differently than it has you.
#159
EtrnlVw
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@Swagnarok
Because in the end, not believing gives you nothing. Absolutely nothing. It gives you temporary relief but nothing in the long term. That's why hardcore atheism will never triumph over the masses.

Acquiring beliefs is not always about getting something, as for me (and many others) I think about my beliefs first before I accept them or reject them, all my beliefs, and at the very least I make sure I know how they conceptually work and IF they can work.


#160
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@Swagnarok
Let's be clear: nobody accepts or rejects God simply because of "logic".

Let us be clearer, that  is baloney. Plenty of people come to the conclusion that there certainly is a Creator of kinds based on reasoning and logic alone. Many people look around at the world and it is obvious to them as well. Logic is based on reasoning and so I don't see how you can say this, especially if you're not a Theist or have spiritual beliefs and are just assuming things.

Logic is a justification, but there are always other reasons.

Are you saying people don't have justifications for their beliefs? perhaps you haven't been asking.

There are things people want, things that trump rationality. Maybe it's a desire to be unique, or to feel yourself superior. Maybe it's the opposite: maybe you're more afraid than you are proud. Afraid of hell, or simply of dying. You can always find some way to justify believing if that's what you want. And those justifications can't be dismissed entirely, so...

Or...….maybe it is rationality. How about justification based on logic and reasoning and not some silly motives? Do you know what the purpose of spirituality is for? it is not solely about beliefs, and those beliefs based on whims no....rather application and observation both collectively as well as individually and of course we are talking about perception beyond the physical experience, and this has been around for thousands of years it is no whim and neither are Theistic beliefs, they are based on logic and rationality. The practice of spirituality is objective by nature, because it exists independently of personal opinions and desires and so formed beliefs are not always based on being afraid of dying, or because someone wants to feel good about themselves ect ect..this is an assumption people make and really only applies to certain people if at all. Certainly doesn't apply to anyone in a debate forum hopefully. Either way it is an assumption with no real justification.


#161
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Let us be clearer, that  is baloney. Plenty of people come to the conclusion that there certainly is a Creator of kinds based on reasoning and logic alone.

THAT is pure baloney. Clearly, you have no concept reason or logic, which you've displayed countless times claiming God Worlds, Overlords and other such fantasies you've created in your mind.

Theistic beliefs, they are based on logic and rationality.
THAT is more baloney. Theistic beliefs are based on myths and superstitions, there is zero logic and rationale in your beliefs, especially. Delusion is the best way to describe them.

The practice of spirituality is objective by nature
THAT is uber baloney and is a contradiction to everything you have said about your beliefs. There's nothing objective about them at all.





#162
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@bsh1
I think it should be noted that existence having an origin doesn't demand agency - Skep1
I am not necessarily sure that the idea of God requires agency. Consider, for a moment, Spinoza's interpretation of God. That said, I think the origin of everything implies some degree of agency, for something must have caused everything to exist. Without a will urging things along, nothing could have come to exist, since there would be no materials in non-existence capable of reacting to create existence in the first place.

Also, with non-existence, you are bringing into consideration the concept of self-creation, which is a contradiction in terms. Something can't create itself because it would first have to exist before this could be done. Nothing is no-thing. A self-existent being (God) does not require a beginning in time or a cause.

#163
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@EtrnlVw

Let us be clearer, that  is baloney. Plenty of people come to the conclusion that there certainly is a Creator of kinds based on reasoning and logic alone. Many people look around at the world and it is obvious to them as well. Logic is based on reasoning and so I don't see how you can say this, especially if you're not a Theist or have spiritual beliefs and are just assuming things.
You've conflated logic with emotion, personal incredulity, ignorance and wishful thinking. That is all.
#164
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@PGA2.0
Special pleading is hereby ridiculed and rejected.
#165
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Special pleading is hereby ridiculed and rejected.
How am I special pleading? I agree with Bsh1 in his statement and added to that statement. If you think self-creation is possible then be my guest and state how it is possible. 

If nothing exists (non-existence) then how can nothing create something? If it a massive illogical assumption to believe it could.

God, the Creator brings into existence the creation. The creation is an act of His. He would have to exist before He created. He would not rely on the created order for His existence. To be "God" He would have to be the greatest conceivable being, or there would be another being or beings who would qualify. If there is no greater being (which is a definition of God) then He would have to be self-existing (i.e., not dependent on anything else for His existence, and not created).