Committed by Faith

Author: Stephen ,

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  • Stephen
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    I do at times feel genuinely sorry for Christians. Many feel committed by faith to the belief that the bible has all the answers that matter, but pick and choose among those answers and ignoring whatever makes them feel uncomfortable.
     
    Most Christians have, and do profess to want a church that operates ‘by the book’ soto speak yet they dispute endlessly over what their book actually means and disregard the very clear implications of its texts whenever it suits them.
    What I have come to realise about Christians is that many are simply unable to discern the difference between explaining and explaining away, or between ideas and ideologies.

    To bring up any inconsistency, contradiction or an anomalous verses  is completely anathema to Christians.
    Saul of the New Testament who became Paul, for instance, can never seem get his story straight concerning his Road to Damascus moment, if we are to take the scripture seriously.

    Acts 9:4 King James Version (KJV)
    And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?
     
     Acts 9:7
    And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man.



    Acts 22:9 
     And they that were with me saw indeedthe light, and were afraid; but they heard not the voice of him that spake tome.


    Acts 26:14
     And when we were all fallen to the earth, I heard a voice speaking unto me, and saying in the Hebrew tongue, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.

    Yes, this, ^^^^^^^^^ from one of the founders of the early Christian Church

     Christians will usually put these many inconsistencies down to irrelevant minutia while totally ignoring the fact this apostle  supposed to hearing the voice of a dead man “risen”and all is supposed be a “ god inspired” gospel truth. 



  • ethang5
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    --> @Stephen
    For the life of me, I saw no inconsistency except the one you tried to slip in.

    Examples:
    one of the founders of the early Christian Church
    Paul founded no church

    this apostle  supposed to hearing the voice of a dead man 
    Nowhere in scripture does it say Paul heard the voice of a dead man.

    all is supposed be a “ god inspired” gospel truth.
    Nowhere in this passage does it say it is a “ god inspired” gospel truth.

    You can't find contradiction, so you manufacture one, and then pretend its in the script.

    I do at times feel genuinely sorry for Christians.
    It isn't christians who need pity.
  • Stephen
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    Paul founded no church
     
    Paul is generally considered one of the most important figures of the Apostolic Age[10][11] and in the mid-30s to the mid-50s AD he founded several churches in Asia Minor and Europe. He took advantage of his status as both a Jew and a Roman citizen to minister to both Jewish and Roman audiences.

    Nowhere in scripture does it say Paul heard the voice of a dead man risen
    Read what I wrote and not what you believe I wrote. What was jesus if he wasn't a deadman risen? Are you now denying the resurrection.

    Nowhere in this passage does it say it is a “ god inspired” gospel truth.
    And I didn’t say that it says that in bible. 
    You can't find contradiction, so you manufacture one, and then pretend its in the script. 
    Are you suggesting that those verses I have produced as examples of contradictions  are not from the Book of  Acts?  The anomalies are there to see.
    Acts 9:4 King James Version (KJV) contradicts Acts 26:14 which contradicts Acts 22:9 which then contradicts Acts 9:7.

     
    One says Paul feel down and then another says they all fell down, One says they "heard not the voice"  another says "I heard a voice speaking unto me" then another verse tells us they all heard a voice 

     
    And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man.

    Get over it. The blinding muddled mind of these gospellers or Paul himself just cannot get their stories straight, and it gets worse.
  • Stephen
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    Here these two gospellers cannot even agree of who was Joseph's father. And Luke seems unsure about Jesus' paternal parenthood

    Matthew 1:16 King James Version (KJV)
    16 And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.

    Luke 3:23 King James Version (KJV)
    23 And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli
      
  • Mopac
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    --> @Stephen
    Why do you feel it is necessary for every account to be the same in scripture when scripture itself doesn't teach the idolatry of scripture?


    It is good there are inconsistencies in scripture. Because Christians are supposed to worship THE TRUTH not writings.


    The scriptures are intended to get people to this point and even guide people who are already at this point. The scriptures are for teaching, not to be taken as God.


    So you are mistaken in believing that undermining scripture undermines true religion.

    In doing what you are doing, you are actually missing the entire point of what scripture is teaching.


  • Stephen
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    --> @Mopac
    So you are mistaken in believing that undermining scripture undermines true religion.
    I think you'll find that the scriptures "undermine" themselves. Thus proving, the scriptures as and of themselves, are unreliable.

    In as few words as possible could you tell me, what is "Paradise" Mopac?
  • Mopac
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    --> @Stephen


    The scriptures are reliable for what their intended use is.


    I would call paradise "Godliness with contentment".
  • Mopac
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    --> @Stephen
    Let me ask you something now.

    Why do you crusade against the faith?

  • Stephen
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    --> @Mopac


    Why do you crusade against the faith?
     Is that what you think I am doing? My you flatter yourself. I am not stupid enough to believe I could rock anyone's faith. And it isn't my intention at all. I notice that you haven't even tried to explain why a so called god inspired work would be riddled with nearly 200 contradictions.

    The two Marys went to the tomb. Matthew.28:1.

    The two Marys and Salome went to the tomb. Mark.16:1.

    Several women went to the tomb. Luke.24:10.

    I would call paradise "Godliness with contentment".

    Yes that is what you would call it . I want to know what the bible means by "Paradise"?
  • Mopac
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    --> @Stephen
    What would you say you are doing?



    It sounds like you are asking something contextual. Paradise is Godliness with contentment. That is my answer. Perhaps you are thinking something different.
  • Stephen
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    --> @Mopac
    Paradise is Godliness with contentment. That is my answer. Perhaps you are thinking something different.

     I get the impression that many Christians believe that Paradise is some kind of (up there) heavenly abode, but you are saying it is simple contentment a state of being/ecstasy even?, Strange though how some bible references to Paradise suggests that it is a place. 
  • Mopac
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    --> @Stephen
    A state of being can be said to be a place.
  • Stephen
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    --> @Mopac
    A state of being can be said to be a place.

    I agree , i.e. a mental place/state - 'cloud nine' -   'he is in a bad place',etc  The scriptures also mention a 3rd heaven which I am assuming is a mental state and not a place. 

    But I would like to know what the BIBLE means by Paradise. You have given me what YOU believe Paradise to mean, what you haven't given me is what the bible means by "Paradise". 

    The bible seems to suggest a physical place depending which of the many bibles one cares to read: it is a long list..

    2 corinthians 12:4

    But he was taken up into paradise, where he heard things too wonderful to tell. 

    was snatched away to Paradise 

    that I was caught up to paradise 

    How that he was caught up into paradise

    "up" and "into" seem to suggest a physical celestial skyward abode.

    And who can ignore this;>

    And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

    "in" paradise.

    So what is the bible suggesting paradise to mean in these verses above?

  • Mopac
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    --> @Stephen
    Yeah, and Jesus says to eat his flesh and drink his blood. It is clear from the scripture itself how people interpreted that one. You wouldn't use this as proof that Christians are to be cannibals would you? I'd hope not.

    But even besides, idioms sometimes are difficult to translate. I think you are missing the obvious, that even the word that gets translated into "paradise" cane from a description of a physical place, like a park. Calling attention to "in" or "up to" doesn't really demonstrate what you are trying to say as much as the word that gets translated into paradise.

    Yet, both of these scriptural examples of paradise can be said to be a state of being. The first clearly by context refers to revelation that Paul has had. The second to the peace an executed man would receive in a very unpeaceful situation.






    So there are clearly other ways of examining these examples that makes good sense. 






  • Stephen
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    yeah, and Jesus says to eat his flesh and drink his blood. It is clear from the scripture itself how people interpreted that one. You wouldn't use this as proof that Christians are to be cannibals would you? I'd hope not.
     
    No because as you say, JESUS made it QUITE CLEAR what each REPRESENTED and was only SYMBOLIC of his flesh and blood. It wasn't an ambiguous statement that could be taken any other way that the one he made very clear. Stop being silly
     
     But the scriptures DO NOT make the meaning of PARADISE clear at all do they? It is ambiguous as you have shown, by giving your own opinion on what it COULD mean. . Otherwise You wouldn’t have had to guess what is meant by the word PARADISE would you? So Don’t take me for some kind of idiot 
    I think you're missing the obvious,
    Yes that ole’chestnut, “I don’t understand and am missing the point'. You’re like a broken record once your back is against the wall. JUST SAY 'YOU DON’T KNOW' , because you don’t.
     
    the word that gets translated into "paradise" cane from a description of a physical place, like a park.
     
    Ah yes, good ole mistranslation, but you seem to have managed to translate it as you see it haven’t you? So it is a place then?

    Calling attention to"in" or "up to" doesn't really demonstrate what you are trying to say.
    IN indicates something enclosed and UP is a direction, Is what I am CLEARLY saying.

    What the hell is a matter with you, do you not understand the simplest of English or do you just want to put your own definitions to what you believe something means?

    In this case put together these very simple two letter  words appearing in  these verses are INDICATING being ENCLOSED in something in  a  SKYWARD DIRECTION, how are you failing to see that?

    So there are clearly other ways of examining these examples that makes good sense. 
     
    There are, but you haven’t been able at all to tell me what THE SCRIPTURES MEAN by the word “paradise”,have you now?

     So try this:
     What did Jesus mean when he PROMISED :

    And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise. ?

  • Mopac
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    --> @Stephen
    I just want you to know that I interpret your unreasonable fanaticism as insecurity. 









  • Stephen
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    --> @Mopac
    I just want you to know that I interpret your unreasonable fanaticism as insecurity. 
     What fanaticism?  These are the gospels that you read and adhere to, this is all your fantasy. A fantasy that you cannot explain  and can't answer for. 

    What did Jesus mean when he PROMISED :

    And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise?

  • Stephen
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    --> @Mopac
    I just want you to know that I interpret your unreasonable fanaticism as insecurity. 
    Ok, you have completely failed to explain what the scripture means by the word "paradise".  So read this verse from Matthew's gospel :

    Matthew 7:21 King James Version (KJV)
    Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

     
    and tell me,  What the gospel means by the word “heaven”? And where is heaven”?

  • Mopac
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    --> @Stephen
    You talk like an ambush journalist.

    You're a fanatic. You aren't really trying to get answers, you are trying to justify yourself.

    If this wasn't the case, you wouldn't be so rude.

    Maybe I'll drop in on another topic you make at a later time, and we can try this again.

  • Stephen
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    --> @Mopac
    You talk like an ambush journalist.
    So that exempts you from answering basic simple questions about these scriptures, does it?

    You aren't really trying to get answers,
    I can assure you there are very good reasons for the questions that I am asking. Questions that you should have no problem with. 


    you are trying to justify yourself.
    Justify myself????   for what?  I have nothing to justify at all. If you are going to enter into a conversation in defence of something I have highlighted, then you should at least have something to justify YOUR opinions and views if they are contrary to my own. but you cannot even manage that. This only makes me more curious. 

    If this wasn't the case, you wouldn't be so rude.
    How have I been "rude". I have asked you two basic questions concerning the scriptures, scriptures that you - I am assuming - have read, studied and followed, and you have failed miserably to  address them. Is all you have done is given me your own interpretation as to why YOU believe Paradise means. I want to know what it is that the gospels say these words mean. I have highlighted the pertinent part of these questions so you will have no trouble distinguishing between your own opinions and those of the scriptures.

    What do the scriptures mean by  paradise and where is it?
    What do the scriptures mean by heaven and where is it?

    Maybe I'll drop in on another topic you make
    it is not compulsory for you to do so, but you are more than welcome, mopac.
  • Mopac
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    --> @Stephen
    Ok, I'm cooled down. Pardon me for letting you offend me. 


    I already told you what I take paradise to mean.


    In the context of the Lord's prayer....

    "Thy will be done on Earth as it is in Heaven"

    That has to do with accepting God's sovereign will over all things, rather than seeing the world as being something other than what it should be. After all, God did it. To accept God's will as being done on Earth as in Heaven is to not have cognitive dissonance concerning how things actually are.


    Godliness with contentment is heaven here on Earth. 





  • Goldtop
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    --> @Mopac
    You're a fanatic.

    This, coming from a fanatic of a dictionary.
  • Mopac
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    --> @Goldtop
    I just want you to know that everytime you argue against an academically respected dictionary as having authority over the defining of terms, there are going to be witnesses who see this as the one thing that proves your position comes from arrogant posturing. That reason alone is enough to make it worth repeating. There are few behaviors of yours that more clearly expose you as a clown than that.


    But that isn't what this topic is about, so troll somewhere else or get ignored.






  • Goldtop
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    --> @Mopac
    No one is arguing against definitions in a dictionary. You yourself cannot argue the definitions of Leprechauns or Unicorns. But, to put any authority in the dictionary based on the existence of something, anyone with a working brain in their head would argue that.
  • Stephen
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    --> @Mopac
    I already told you what Itake paradise to mean.
     You have but how many times do I Have to repeat myself? I want you to tell me what the scripture means by the words paradise and heaven and where they are located.

     But you perfectly understand what the question is. Do I have to keep repeating it?
    on Earth as in Heaven 
    And there we are again, IN signifying to be  - enclosed-  in something.

    I can give you many more references to Heaven, try some of these:, maybe they will help you explain tome, what the scriptures mean is by “heaven” and where it is located.

    Matthew 7:21 King James Version (KJV)
    Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
     So this ^^^^ suggests "heaven" to something somewhere that can be entered into, but is it a place? or a state of mind?

     
    John 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.
     
    Is Jesus here^^^^^ suggesting a place, If so where is it?
     
    Luke 10:20 However, do not rejoice that the spirits submit to you, but rejoice that your names are written in heaven.”
    This^^^^ suggest  somewhere enclosed.

    Mark 13:32 “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.
    This^^^^ suggests that something or some can actually abide in this enclosed place this enclosed place.


    Mathew 24:30 - 31 “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. 
     
    This^^^^ again suggest someone; Jesus is actually in a place called “Heaven”.
     
     And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.
    Again ^^^ this is suggesting a place rather than a state of mind


    John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven,but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

    Again, this is suggesting Jesus is actually dwelling IN this place called heaven. and clearly stating it is UP i.e. that it is located SKYWARD.


     You insisted that these are not ambiguous statements. But the scriptures only give tantalising pointers to what  these words "paradise" and "heaven"  may actually mean. Your opinion on what you think these words mean are only as good as mine and therefore would be just as valid,  if we were to go by your standard of deduction.


    What do the scriptures mean by  paradise and where is it?
    What do the scriptures mean by heaven and where is it?

    Just say you don't know , if you don't know.