Science is not objective.

Author: 3RU7AL

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TwoMan
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@zedvictor4
I am saying that objectivity requires facts. A human mind does not generate facts, as such; it observes and experiences them. Subjectivity requires the feelings, opinions, etc. of a mind.
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@3RU7AL
I read a little and your going to need to make it more readable and much shorter.

Don't spend a lot of time on it if you can sum up your conclusions in two sentences that'd be great. This way I will more easily understand what you have written previously.


3RU7AL
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@Paul
I believe it is a mistake to imagine noumenon as some sort of "thing" when it is merely an amorphous concept that acts as a place-holder for both "what we don't currently know" (Mysterium Invisus) and "what may be fundamentally unknowable" (Magnum Mysterium).

In all likelihood, it is conceptually, literally, ultimately and completely beyond our ability to comprehend.  All of this makes it very very very difficult for me to believe that we can consider (with any degree of confidence whatsoever) that noumenon is itself comprised of 100% pure, uncut, "objective reality".
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@3RU7AL
Science has already found the limit of our understanding in quantum mechanics. Renowned particle physicist Richard Feynman said, if you think you understand quantum mechanics you don't understand quantum mechanics, and he's right. What he meant by that to put it bluntly is that no human will ever be able to understand quantum mechanics. The universe probably has an infinite number of things going on that we will never see or be able to do science on.

Your perspective is human, but you can know how things work objectively.

Do you know how an internal combustion engine works objectively?

TwoMan
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@Paul
How an engine works would be considered a knowable "phenomenon".

An engine as it exists independent of human sense or perception would be considered an unknowable "noumenon".
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@Paul
How can you know if "quantum physics" or "dark energy" is Mysterium Invisus (merely undiscovered) or Magnum Mysterium (fundamentally unknowable)?

Please present your preferred definition of "objectivity" so we can compare notes and make sure we are talking about exactly the same concept.

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@TwoMan
If a tree falls in the forest and nobody is around to hear it, it makes a sound.

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@3RU7AL
Quantum physics is fundamentally unknowable for humans.

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@Paul
If a tree falls in the forest and nobody is around to hear it, it makes a sound.

Actually, it makes a vibration. That vibration is translated into sound by ears and a brain so, technically, it doesn't make a sound.
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@Paul
Quantum physics is fundamentally unknowable for humans.
You seem to be making assertions that are beyond your epistemological limits.

How can you know if quantum physics is unknowable and not simply (currently) unknown?

How can you possibly claim to know this?
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@3RU7AL
Because particles commonly do things like being in two places at the same time and a whole bunch of other crazy things that utterly cannot happen in our world.

Is there an analogue you can think of in our world that you could use to explain how to be two places at the same time?

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@Paul
A revolving door is a type of door that can be both open and closed at the same time.

The fact that there are different rules, does not mean that it is somehow impossible for us to learn them at some future point.

Most of physics is counter-intuitive in one way or another.

People used to think that if you drove a car over sixty miles per hour, the air would be blowing by too fast for a human to breathe.
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@3RU7AL
Sorry but saying something is alive and dead is a contradiction, not a tautology. Logical definitions included.
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@3RU7AL
Most of physics is counter-intuitive?

How so?

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@3RU7AL
Instead of the above tell me if you understand how an internal combustion engine works.

I'm not going to disparage you if you don't I need to know because if you don't I'll have to think of another example that I could use.

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@MagicAintReal
In logic, a tautology (from the Greek word ταυτολογία) is a formula or assertion that is true in every possible interpretation. A simple example is "(x equals y) or (x does not equal y)" (or as a less abstract example, "The ball is green or the ball is not green"). (wiki)
3RU7AL
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@Paul
I know generally how an engine works.  Please present your example.

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@TwoMan
--> @Paul

If a tree falls in the forest and nobody is around to hear it, it makes a sound.

Actually, it makes a vibration. That vibration is translated into sound by ears and a brain so, technically, it doesn't make a sound.
If a tree falls in the forest, and no human surveys the forest before or after, and if there is zero evidence that there was a tree or that it fell, does the "sound" technically "exist"?

The answer is obviously no (based on the definition of exist).
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@TwoMan
In other words, can a hypothetical tree make a real sound?
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@3RU7AL
Is the way it works counter-intuitive?

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@Paul
There are many aspects of an engine that seem counter to common sense.

Why use two overhead cams when one will do the job?

Why use eight pistons when one is more efficient?

Why use and inline cylinder configuration vs. flat or rotary?

Why would anyone choose to travel with several gallons of highly toxic combustible petrol/gasoline/diesel within a few feet of themselves?

The earliest combustion engines were much more primitive than today's modern versions, this means that the improvements we've collectively made to the design were non-obvious/counter-intuitive and were generally arrived at through a process of trail-and-error.
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@Paul
There are some interesting TV shows "Mind Games" and "Mind Field" and "The Brain w/ David Eagleman" that illustrate how reality is very often counter-intuitive.



TwoMan
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@3RU7AL
If a tree falls in the forest, and no human surveys the forest before or after, and if there is zero evidence that there was a tree or that it fell, does the "sound" technically "exist"?

The answer is obviously no (based on the definition of exist).
Are you suggesting that for something to exist it must be verifiable by a human? I'm not aware of a definition of "exist" with that stipulation.
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@TwoMan
Are you suggesting that for something to exist it must be verifiable by a human? I'm not aware of a definition of "exist" with that stipulation.

Exist:  To have actual being; be real.

Real: Being or occurring in fact or actuality; having verifiable existence.


Fact: Something demonstrated to exist or known to have existed - Knowledge or information based on real occurrences: an account based on fact.


Fact: A thing that is indisputably the case.


(IFF) exist requires real (AND) real requires fact (AND) fact requires demonstration and indisputability (THEN) exist requires demonstration and indisputability.
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@3RU7AL
I think I'll just stick to the definition of "exist" that does not require human verifiability. "To have actual being" is sufficient. Whether or not something can be demonstrated to exist is beside the point.
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@TwoMan
I think I'll just stick to the definition of "exist" that does not require human verifiability. "To have actual being" is sufficient. Whether or not something can be demonstrated to exist is beside the point.
How would you distinguish "exist" from "fantasy" (or "does-not-exist")?

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@3RU7AL
How would you distinguish "exist" from "fantasy" (or "does-not-exist")?
I wouldn't. How would you? How can be verifiability be verified?

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@TwoMan
How can be verifiability be verified?
Verifiability can be verified either directly or indirectly through a trusted proxy.
TwoMan
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@3RU7AL
How can you be certain your trusted proxy isn't a fantasy? And on and on we go.....

All I am saying is that existence is independent of human verifiability.
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@TwoMan
All I am saying is that existence is independent of human verifiability.
Ok, that is an interesting metaphysical choice.

What if someone told you there is an alien base on the dark side (the side always facing away from us) of earth's moon?

Do you think it would be fair to say, "an alien base on the dark side of earth's moon exists"?

What are your general standards of evidence?