Then why baptize him.

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09.14.2020 03:15PM

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@Tradesecret

Tradesecret wrote: " Because I take the view that the evidence is there [in the bible] and it is clear."

I have asked you to show us this "clear" biblical evidence the John baptised Jesus a Priest and a King ?

Yet, I also add, that for me this is clear evidence. Hence I did not lie.

So where is it! ?

#32

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09.15.2020 01:49AM

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@Stephen

@Tradesecret

It always seemed weird to me that after John baptizes Jesus, and the heavens open and God speaks out that Jesus is his son, John then later sends out messengers to ask Jesus if he's the messiah. Did John not see the heavens open or hear God's voice? That sounds like it should be pretty convincing.

In the same way, it also strikes me as weird that John would send out those same messengers if he knew he had anointed Christ as the messiah king. Why do you think he did that?

#33

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09.15.2020 02:09AM

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@Castin

It always seemed weird to me that after John baptizes Jesus, and the heavens open and God speaks out that Jesus is his son, John then later sends out messengers to ask Jesus if he's the messiah. Did John not see the heavens open or hear God's voice? That sounds like it should be pretty convincing.

In the same way, it also strikes me as weird that John would send out those same messengers if he knew he had anointed Christ as the messiah king. Why do you think he did that?

It is a good question. But I think both questions are answered in a similar way. People, including John the Baptist can be convinced of something at one stage and then not far removed, especially when they are in prison, or depressed, can question everything they believe.

Think of the Israelites in the desert wandering for 40 years. They had witnessed God deliver them from Egypt with mighty miracles - they had seen the Red Sea become walls and rain down on the Egyptians. They had witnessed Moses' face shine with the glory of being in God's presence - and yet they still grumbled about water and food and that they would starve.

And think about Jesus' disciples - they saw him heal people - they saw him feed 5 thousand people and then they worried about there not being enough food a couple of days later.

Were they dumb? Did they not get it? Do people in our life time learn the lessons from history? Do children need to be reminded over and over again not to do certain things? We know it is wrong to lie - but most of us do. Why? We know it is wrong to steal but we will justify why we don't need to pay our taxes.

I see people experience the wonders of God and then start doubting - and then come back to church and then leave. People are fickle. People forget things in the heat of the moment or when tough times come.

In John's case - knowing Jesus is the messiah, even annointing him as such, does not mean that you understand what his role was going to be. I think most of the people in Jesus' time - disciples included, had no idea that the messiah was coming to save people from the wrath of God by dealing with their sin. Most people would have got caught up in the idea that the messiah was coming to save their people from the Romans. I suspect John would have got caught up with "fake news" as well. HE was human, not perfect, subject to wanting God to pour out his wrath on the enemies of God. So when Jesus as the annointed messiah did not take this path - John questioned himself - especially now he was in prison - why was Jesus not taking it up to the Romans? Why was he not declaring himself the King of Israel as the heir of David?

This is why Jesus told John's disciples to go back and tell him what he was doing? Jesus was reminding John the purpose of the messiah was quite different to what the people of Israel and even John was expecting. I hope this answers your question - if it does not please tell me what more you would like to know.

Just to clarify my response and answer. John's doubts arose because he, like many people of that time, and perhaps many people of our time, had a distorted picture of what the messiah was coming to do. Jesus was not coming to save them from the Romans, but to save them from the wrath of God. Jesus' response to John demonstrated he was doing exactly as the prophets said he would do.

#34

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09.15.2020 02:53AM

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@Tradesecret

That's actually a pretty good answer. I tip my hat to thee.

I guess it's still hard to wrap the mind around John's doubt, after passages like:

The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him and declared, “Here is the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world! This is he of whom I said, ‘After me comes a man who ranks ahead of me because he was before me.’ I myself did not know him; but I came baptizing with water for this reason, that he might be revealed to Israel.” And John testified, “I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it remained on him. I myself did not know him, but the one who sent me to baptize with water said to me, ‘He on whom you see the Spirit descend and remain is the one who baptizes with the Holy Spirit.’ And I myself have seen and have testified that this is the Son of God.”

#35

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09.15.2020 03:53AM

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@Castin

That's actually a pretty good answer. I tip my hat to thee.

I guess it's still hard to wrap the mind around John's doubt, after passages like:

The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him and declared, “Here is the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world! This is he of whom I said, ‘After me comes a man who ranks ahead of me because he was before me.’ I myself did not know him; but I came baptizing with water for this reason, that he might be revealed to Israel.” And John testified, “I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it remained on him. I myself did not know him, but the one who sent me to baptize with water said to me, ‘He on whom you see the Spirit descend and remain is the one who baptizes with the Holy Spirit.’ And I myself have seen and have testified that this is the Son of God.”

Again I hear you.

Like I said, sometimes our circumstances just make us doubt. I am talking to a guy who loves his wife and would give his life up for her. He had no doubt - about this at all - and then she cheats on him. It changed everything he thought he knew. John may well have known all these things about Jesus - at least theoretically, but I doubt that he was thinking of Jesus dying on a cross. Jesus told his disciples many times he was going to die - but they did not believe him. And this was despite the fact that they saw him doing miracles etc. Think of Peter, why would someone who could call Jesus - the Christ in one moment - then deny him in the next? Fear. Circumstances. Doubt arising because of what you see is not matching with what you think. This is life. Life is messy. It is hard. And I don't think the bible tries to hide this fact. It in my view gives it authenticity and credibility. It is not saying life is easy and that you will never have problems. But it is saying, you don't need to do it alone. And there is a God who cares for you.

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#36

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Continued from part 1 here https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/3526/john-the-baptist-part-1-confrontation?page=1&post_num

09.15.2020 06:15AM

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@Castin

It always seemed weird to me that after John baptizes Jesus, and the heavens open and God speaks out that Jesus is his son, John then later sends out messengers to ask Jesus if he's the messiah. Did John not see the heavens open or hear God's voice? That sounds like it should be pretty convincing.

In the same way, it also strikes me as weird that John would send out those same messengers if he knew he had anointed Christ as the messiah king. Why do you think he did that?

I have asked these questions and many others concerning the baptism of Jesus. One this thread of mine that was Part 2 of an ongoing topic. I asked about Johns doubt here>> https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/3538-john-the-baptist-part-2-doubt The reply's are ridiculous::

ber=1

Of the many questions we have to ask ourselves is, if we are to take this story at face value and true then why did John the Baptist want Jesus to baptize him?

In Christianity it is said baptism is an initiation of sorts into the Christian faith and family. Some say it also washes away our sins. So then this raises two more problems and two more questions. (1) This was no Christian ceremony as both Jesus and John were Jews. So what was the reason for baptism of any one of these Jews. (2) What sins had John the Baptist committed to have his sins washed away? Or what sins had Jesus committed to have his sins washed away?

John the Baptist on the one hand tells us he didn’t know Jesus,but if this indeed be the case, then how did he recognize Jesus as “the one to come”.

No one has disputed that John the Baptist had his own disciples before Jesus came on the scene which is just as well as the evidence is overwhelming. And John continued to have disciples after his arrest, which raises one of the biggest questions of all concerning this whole bullshit story. John eventually baptized Jesus, he then, so the gospels tell us that those present seen “a spirit like a dove from heaven”, not only does he tell us what he seen, he also tells what he heard and somehow this confirmed everything for him.

So then, John is totally convinced that he got the right man but then this happens.

John then gets himself arrested by all accounts and so begins to wonder and have serious doubt if he had actually baptized and anointed the right person??!!!! YOU JUST COULDN’T MAKE IT UP!!!

YES!!! The greatest prophet who had “ever lived” was now, even after seeing the spirit descend like a dove, and after hearing the voice of GOD HIMSELF!!!! “saying,this is my son and I love him” he sends some of his disciples to Jesus to ask:

2 When John, who was in prison, heard about the deeds of the Messiah, he sent his disciples 3 to ask him, “Are you the one who is to come, or should we expect someone else?”. Matthew 11:1-3

This ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ from the greatest prophet that ever lived.

We have to look at this closely. John The baptist prophesies of Jesus coming , he then witnesses a spirit landing on Jesus like “a dove” and also hears the voice of god,but then has serious doubts about Jesus being “the one”?

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#37

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09.15.2020 08:21AM

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@Tradesecret

Like I said, sometimes our circumstances just make us doubt. I am talking to a guy who loves his wife and would give his life up for her. He had no doubt - about this at all - and then she cheats on him. It changed everything he thought he knew. John may well have known all these things about Jesus - at least theoretically, but I doubt that he was thinking of Jesus dying on a cross. Jesus told his disciples many times he was going to die - but they did not believe him. And this was despite the fact that they saw him doing miracles etc. Think of Peter, why would someone who could call Jesus - the Christ in one moment - then deny him in the next? Fear. Circumstances. Doubt arising because of what you see is not matching with what you think. This is life. Life is messy. It is hard. And I don't think the bible tries to hide this fact. It in my view gives it authenticity and credibility. It is not saying life is easy and that you will never have problems. But it is saying, you don't need to do it alone. And there is a God who cares for you.

This ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ is absolute bullshit!!!! and for many reasons.

she cheats on him. It changed everything he thought he knew.

What had Jesus done that changed Johns mind and caused him to doubt even after a confirmation from the lord god almighty himself? This is the greatest prophet that ever born according to Jesus himself! " King James Bible Luke 7:28

"For I say unto you, Among those that are born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist"

Had Jesus got it wrong too?

John may well have known all these things about Jesus - at least theoretically,

Where is the theory? John had been sent as the forerunner to the Christ to "prepare the way for the lord". He seen the heavenly dove, he "heard the voice of the almighty" himself. What was "theoretical" about what John says he had witnessed? Theory doesn't even enter into it!

Jesus told his disciples many times he was going to die

John was never a disciple of Jesus.

Think of Peter

Why?

Doubt arising because of what you see is not matching with what you think.

Are you saying John was delusional about what he testifies to- after the fact- that he seen "the clouds part" a "heavenly dove" and "heard the voice of god" or are you suggesting John may have been schizophrenic?

It is not saying life is easy and that you will never have problems. But it is saying, you don't need to do it alone. And there is a God who cares for you.

This has absolutely nothing to do with the baptism of Jesus by John. It is simply another example of your filibustering clap trap as is the whole of your quote above.

Tell me, why did John at first sight of Jesus believe that it was Jesus that should be baptising him?

In Matthew 3:14, upon meeting Jesus, John said: "I have need to be baptized of thee"

#38

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09.16.2020 10:32AM

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@Stephen

I certainly did have many of those same thoughts, hence my confusion.

It is not that I find it outrageous that John would have had a moment of doubt in prison; I think Tradesecret's right, we see other men of faith in scripture have moments of doubt, even after they've witnessed miracles.

It's that John's doubt is such an abrupt, complete reversal. And one that is not given any real attention or elaboration in the narrative, even though it rather seems to demand it. Even after John's messenger questions Jesus in front of a crowd, Jesus doesn't really bat an eyelash that the man who baptized him and had a vision that he was the son of God is now asking him if he is the messiah - it's like their history is nonexistent in this scene. There is no "o ye of little faith" as in other cases where Jesus encounters doubt in his faithful. There is no "Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip?" reaction. And John's doubt should really be even more shocking than any apostle's, because his role as the second Elijah and the herald makes him greater than the apostles - they were not prophets.

The phrasing is odd to me, too. "When John heard about the deeds of the Messiah..." As if it is news to him that the son of God is performing miracles.

John the Baptist on the one hand tells us he didn’t know Jesus,but if this indeed be the case, then how did he recognize Jesus as “the one to come”.

I don't know the answer to this, either.

#39

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09.19.2020 03:28AM

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@Castin

@Tradesecret

Here we have in the 1st century of Israel, a man, performing a water ceremony - calling for repentant of sins and preparing the way as it were for the Messiah who would come.

What is curious is whether John started a new type of ceremony without revelation from God. Or whether he intentionally borrowed from the sects around that time - such as the Essenes. Or whether in fact he was in fact following on from the true and tried traditions of the OT.

I say the latter.

What we need to recognize about John is that he was a Levite. His father had been the high priest - or if not the high priest - certainly the priest whom had been selected to enter the Holy of Holies on behalf of Israel. That was where he had been struck dumb for not believing God.

So we have not just a prophet - dressed in similar clothes to Elijah, but also a Levite priest, performing a water ceremony - and something to do with the sins of the people.

We also have Jesus, a Son of David, born in Bethlehem, at the age of 30 coming to John to be baptized. How old was David when he was coronated? How old were the OT priests when they were ordained? And interestingly, how many eldest sons of tribes not belonging to Levi were given to the Levites as priests?

What OT water ceremonies do we know about? And please don't think of submersion, think of other methods?

I suggest that for Jesus to be anointed as king - he needed to be anointed by a prophet.
To be anointed to be a priest - he needs to be anointed by a Levite priest.
To be anointed as a prophet - like Elijah to Elisha - the hands of a prophet were suitable.

Marry all of this with the fact that God the Father was present in voice - God the Holy Spirit ascended either as or like a dove - and we have the two fold - or three fold witness required of all of these events.

It was to fulfill all righteousness -

This is of course my opinion - and also the opinion of many others.

Baptists - tend to think it is about identification with humanity. And I note that this is probably the case as well.

What we do know is that Jesus was sinless. Although I might note that I am not yet of the view to dismiss the fact that he might have been born with original sin. He was born of Mary - a human after all. Even if it is the case that he also conceived by the Holy Spirit. I am still considering my view about that thought. Yet it does not change my view about the fact that he JESUS was sinless whilst on earth - otherwise his resurrection would not taken place. It was only because of this truth that we have the resurrection.

What you said, TradeSecret, and more!

Baptism also represented a new birth or new beginning, which ties into righteousness. Israel passing through the Red Sea was a baptism into Moses and a new life freed from bondage in Egypt and also when Israel crossed the Jordon into the Promised Land, they were home. There are a lot of parallels between Joshua taking the people into that physical land and Jesus taking the New Covenant believer into the greater spiritual country. Notice it was just after Israel crossed the Jordon that Joshua chose and appointed twelve men from each tribe of Israel. The Lord Jesus, after He is baptized, calls and appoints twelve disciples. Remember also that in Egypt we see the promised Passover, then after crossing the Rea Sea, God establishes His covenant with Isreal at Mt. Sinai. So also, Jesus, after Baptism, comes to establish a New Covenant with His people, the New Israel, those born not physically but spiritually. This covenant is signified on Mt Calvary. Just as Moses made the covenant on behalf of the people at Sinai, so Jesus makes the covenant on behalf of the people at Calvary.

Our baptism is an identity with a new covenat community of righteous believers (our righteousness is Jesus Christ and what He has done on our behalf). When we are baptized we recognize our dying to our old life of sin and bondage and being renewed by His Spirit into a new life in Christ. Coming up out of the water is a symbolism of this new life, of becoming members of a new covenant, of crossing from the land of bondage (our spiritual bondages as opposed to OT Israels physical bondage) to freedom in Christ who took our punishment and burdens upon Himself for our sake.

John came preaching a repentance of sins in which the sinful person was symbolically washed clean of their sin in the Jordon River. The problem with the OT was that sin was not taken care of for all time. Israel still had to offer the sacrifice of atonement one a year for the sins of the people. The baptism Jesus offers is a repentance of sin once for all time because His sacrifice is sufficient to do that. Bulls and sheep were not human beings. They represented the human being in that the sinful party identified with the bull as representing that human. The same is true of Jesus as the sacrificial Lamb. He offers Himself, a human being, so because He is without sin He is able to do more than animal sacrifices can. It was a man, the first Adam, who first sinned against God and was held accountable. It was the Second Adam, a man, who did not sin yet took the penalty for those who place their faith in Him as the greater sacrifice. With Him, God was well pleased.

Two other points. Jesus came to fulfill the Father's will that all righteousness would be met, which meant that He had to become a man and subject Himself to the Father. Baptism was an example for us to follow. As OT Israel was baptized into Moses, the New Covenant Israel is baptized into Jesus Christ. Second, notice that what is applied to God in the OT is applied or said of Jesus in the NT. The Covenant is a covenant in His blood. He comes to save His people. In the OT God makes a blood covenant with OT Israel. He saves His people from their bondage in Egypt.

#40

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09.19.2020 04:37AM

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@Tradesecret

So where is you "clear evidence" that the Baptist baptised Jesus a Priest and King?
Again I refer to my initial post in this topic. Yet, I also add, that for me this is clear evidence. Hence I did not lie. It may be that I was hasty in my conclusions. That is certainly a possibility. But also it would take more time to gather all of the evidence I have to suggest otherwise - and I simply can't be bothered at the moment do that. SO enjoy your win. Enjoy the pleasure you have at demonstrating that I could not find the evidence - that you too must have seen to make you come to the same conclusion.

Prophet:

Deuteronomy 18:15

“The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me [Moses] from among you, from your countrymen (brothers, brethren). You shall listen to him.

Fulfilled:

Acts 3:20-23 (AMP)
20 and that He may send [to you] Jesus, the Christ, who has been appointed for you, 21 whom heaven must keep until the time for the [complete] restoration of all things about which God promised through the mouth of His holy prophets from ancient time. 22 Moses said, ‘The Lord God will raise up for you a Prophet [a]like me from your countrymen; you shall listen to Him and obey everything He tells you. 23 And it will be that every person that does not listen to and heed that Prophet will be utterly destroyed from among the people.’

Priest:

John 17:1

[ The High Priestly Prayer ] Jesus spoke these things; and lifting up His eyes to heaven, He said, “Father, the hour has come; glorify Your Son, that the Son may glorify You,

Hebrews 2:17

Therefore, He had to be made like His brethren in all things, so that He might become a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people.

Hebrews 3:1

[ Jesus Our High Priest ] Therefore, holy brethren, partakers of a heavenly calling, consider Jesus, the Apostle and High Priest of our confession;

Hebrews 4:14

Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession.

King:

His heritage:

Matthew 1:6

Jesse was the father of David the king. David was the father of Solomon by Bathsheba who had been the wife of Uriah.

Matthew 22:45

So then, if David calls Him (the Son, the Messiah) ‘Lord,’ how is He David’s son?”

Mark 12:37

David himself calls Him (the Son, the Messiah) ‘Lord’; so how can it be that He is David’s Son?” The large crowd enjoyed hearing Jesus and listened to Him with delight.

Jesus as Messiah was to sit on David's throne. He was to have a KINGDOM.

Daniel 7:14 (AMP)

“And to Him (the Messiah) was given dominion (supreme authority),

Glory and a kingdom,

That all the peoples, nations, and speakers of every language

Should serve and worship Him.

His dominion is an everlasting dominion

Which will not pass away;

And His kingdom is one

Which will not be destroyed.

Matthew 2:2

“Where is He who has been born King of the Jews? For we saw His star in the east and have come to worship Him.”

Matthew 5:35

or by the earth, for it is the footstool of His feet, or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the great King.

Matthew 21:5

“Say to the daughter of Zion, ‘Behold your King is coming to you, Gentle, and mounted on a donkey, Even on a colt, the foal of a beast of burden.’”

Matthew 22:2

“The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who gave a wedding feast for his son.

Matthew 25:34

“Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.

Matthew 27:11

[ Jesus before Pilate ] Now Jesus stood before the governor, and the governor questioned Him, saying, “Are You the King of the Jews?” And Jesus said to him, “It is as you say.”

Matthew 27:37

And above His head they put up the charge against Him which read, “THIS IS JESUS THE KING OF THE JEWS.”

Matthew 27:42

“He saved others; He cannot save Himself. He is the King of Israel; let Him now come down from the cross, and we will believe in Him.

18 days later

#41

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10.08.2020 01:07AM

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@BrotherDThomas

"Jesus rising from the dead is not a miracle. It was always going to happen because he had not committed sin"
how can Jesus in His Triune Doctrine not have committed any sins? As if Jesus' presence in the Old Testament wasn't sinful enough with his brutal killings of the innocents, how about the time in the New Testament when Jesus said this to His disciples: JESUS SAID: “I tell you that everyone who has will be given more; but the one who does not have, even what he has will be taken away from him. And these enemies of mine who were unwilling for me to rule over them, bring them here and slay them in front of me. After Jesus had said this, He went on ahead, going up to Jerusalem.….” ( Luke 19:26-28)

Jesus must have had enough of His murdering ways, as Yahweh God incarnate, in the Old Testament, so by proxy He wants His disciples to murder for Him! LOL. Even when uttering such a statement from Jesus as shown, IT IS A SIN to want others do your bidding for you in the way of murder!

Yes, we know, this parable is related to Jesus' 2nd coming, it is attributed to Jesus, and it is spoken by Jesus, nonetheless, it is SINFUL to state that Jesus wants His disciples to murder His enemies, especially when Jesus says to love your enemies, what a hypocritical irony from the mouth of Jesus ( Matthew 5:44-45 )!

I said Jesus did not sin. Brother alleges without any justification - not proves - that Jesus sinned because in a parable about the second coming, he symbolized as a king with all the powers and rights of a king to execute all treasonable offences, asks his servants or soldiers or whoever has the power to arrest them, to bring lawful execution on his enemies. Further, the Brother alleges without any justification- again not proves - that even conceding this is a parable and talking about the second coming that this is inconsistent with with loving your enemies and hypocritical. I assume that the Brother is alleging that hypocrisy is sinful.

In the first place - Jesus as King is lawfully able to execute anyone who commits treason. No Sin there. Secondly, Any one who the king delegates responsibility to do the executing is lawful. Again no sin there. Thirdly, The question of loving your enemies is a historical one - not an eternal one. The purpose is to bring your enemy to Christ. If at the end of history the enemy has not responded to the love of GOD and his people during history, then it is just to execute the enemy - who have shown no desire to run from their treason. No sin there either. The issue is - to be loving to your enemy in history - but in eternity - to show your enemy justice.

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#42

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10.08.2020 09:42AM

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@Tradesecret

I said Jesus did not sin.

Then what was the reason for his baptism given that John THE BAPTIST ( the lone voice crying in the wilderness) was shouting "repent" ones sins, come be baptised.? what did Jesus have to "repent"?

“And now what are you waiting for? Get up, be baptized and wash your sins away, calling on his name.” (Acts 22:16)

“Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. “(Acts 2:38)

“John appeared, baptizing in the wilderness and proclaiming a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins. And all the country of Judea and all Jerusalem were going out to him and were being baptized by him in the river Jordan, confessing their sins.” (Mark 1:4-5)

“And he went into all the region around the Jordan, proclaiming a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins.” (Luke 3:3)

The bible is clear . It is all to do with cleansing of ones sins yet here we have the son of god himself insisting John baptise him. WHY!?

You have said on another thread that Jesus baptism was not a ritual of repentance or the washing away of sins but a " ordination of him as Priest, Prophet and King" then later you qualify this claim telling us that you "take the view that the evidence is there [in the bible] and it is clear. " .#2 & #18 respectively.

I am still waiting for you to show us all this " very clear evidence".

#43

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