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@3RU7AL
For your consideration:

Magical freewill by it's own definition would have an external influence. Ergo not free.

I would hold, that conscious effort is as free as it gets.


And I was only pointing out that de-programming and re-programming is not the same as changing ones mind or altering preferences.


Biology is certainly hardware.

Instinct/inherent data, is an operating system.

All acquired  data uploaded/downloaded to memory is software.

I think that "firmware" is an inappropriate analogy.


it could be argued that we have an instinctive operating system, but also create a conscious operating system, from memory (free will).

Further: Free will allows us to influence material evolution (technological development).


Or maybe everything is part of one big universal masterplan (GOD PRINCIPLE).




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@zedvictor4
I would hold, that conscious effort is as free as it gets.
(IFF) one insists on using the term "free" (or "freewill") (THEN) the compatibilist definition seems the most apt (free of "overt" COERCION)
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@zedvictor4
And I was only pointing out that de-programming and re-programming is not the same as changing ones mind or altering preferences.
De-programming and re-programming is literally indistinguishable from "changing ones mind".

In 6 minutes and 53 seconds,
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@zedvictor4
Biology is certainly hardware.
Ok,

Instinct/inherent data, is an operating system.
Instinct/basic hardware interface is firmware.

All acquired  data uploaded/downloaded to memory is software.
Inculcated value imprinting is some mix of programming language and operating system.

I think that "firmware" is an inappropriate analogy.
Instinct/basic hardware interface (firmware) is much more difficult to modify than daily conscious "decision making" (software/subroutines/macros).
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@3RU7AL
There's changing ones mind...Oh I'll have rose instead of white.

Then there is changing ones mind or having ones mind changed....De-programming  and re-programming.

The vagaries of language.

And analogies can be as complex as one requires....And the human brain especially, is seemingly an amazing piece of organic development....An evolutionary necessity some might say.....But perhaps not the be all and end all of the universe and intelligence therein.

The Ultimate data....The GOD principle.....The universal resurrection.


lady3keys
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@secularmerlin
Skepticism is the default. 
As well it should be!  I am a skeptic at heart.  But I admit, I will continue to split hairs, if it means I can find a little bit of hope where I have precious little.  But TRUTH, OR AT LEAST ITS OFTEN CLUMSY PURSUIT (for me), WILL ALWAYS COME FIRST!
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@lady3keys
But TRUTH, OR AT LEAST ITS OFTEN CLUMSY PURSUIT (for me), WILL ALWAYS COME FIRST!
Except in regards to freewill?
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@zedvictor4
Making decisions....Conscious effort (effect) stimulated by cause....Decisions by definition allow for choice (free will).
Can you really say that choice = free will?  The whole debate about determinism hinges on "choice" being nothing but an illusion.  A thing I grudgingly agree with to some extent.  I argue that you can reprogram your own "desires" to make that "choice" a different one.

Your database example is a good one, if you are talking about "new fields" and not just more data.  A "learning artificial intelligence (AI) brain", in theory, can learn something new by seeing two known data components interact in a new way.  This "new way" would necessarily require the robot to create a "field" or a whole new table.  The introduction of the new structure would require the entire database to draw new relationships between the new table and the rest of the table.  But some would say the robot is still programmed and can never be "conscious".

Evolution has made this process automatic for us, and for animals, using experience (our senses) as the only initial cause.  Once we have a bank of memories, we use these (via internal thought) to make decisions.  This is why they say that there is no free will.  But if we can consciously create forced experiences for ourselves and control the elements we are associating, can't that mean that we have partial free will?  Like my wine example previously, I can force myself to like rose' instead of zinfandel by associating it over and over again with laughter, good music and friends.  Here "I" am forcing the experience, instead of just "walking into it unaware"  --  and I am repeating it.  It is still cause and effect.  I am just exerting a little more control over the "cause and effect" process.  I call that reprogramming and "partial free will".

But I am guessing
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@3RU7AL
However, our ability to change those patterns is still constrained by our biology and our environment.
Absolutely.  This is why I use the phrase "partial free will".

And this is a perfectly reasonable belief (unfalsifiable) but it is important to remember that indeterminism is INDISTINGUISHABLE FROM RANDOM.
I think that may be true to a certain extent.  I do not think a choice is free will.  A decision is more difficult.  No decision is made in a vacuum.  This is where randomness comes into play.  You have to be exposed to different ideas all the time.  For instance, when I click on "Religion" and first see all the new Religion thread subjects.  No part of me knows what these will be, especially my first day on DebateArt.  For me, those threads were random ---  less so as I stayed on the forum day after day.  But still . . .  As I began to read random ideas that were not my own, they mixed with the complexity of ideas and influences in my own brain.  The combination of "RANDOM" and my existing "DETERMINISTIC" attitudes, caused things to change in me, possibly indelibly. 

This is how I define my identity.  So yes, randomness plays a huge role.  But I see free will a little differently.  I see it as a script.  I use the same programs that biology gave me (desires, needs, etc. . .) to force feed repetitive "experiences" that I create into my own system.  In this way, I "partially control" my own associations (my wine example).  I no longer just allow natural "experience" to be my only programmer.   This decision still has a cause, but I think self-programmer is better than saying "no free will" at all.  Randomness is still involved, along with cause, but I get to make a decision like "read everything I get my hands on" in order to learn and become a better self-programmer.

A little naive maybe, but I already know how little control we have   ---   as biological, electrically-neuron-controlled people.  :)  So I spend my time looking for loop-holes.

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@3RU7AL
Belief in judgmental gods also CAUSES (some) people to act more honestly.

I'm not convinced that counts as EVIDENCE supporting the truth-value of such a claim.
I agree.  That's why I called it a "tidbit".  It proved nothing.  It was just interesting.
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@3RU7AL
Good example.
My FIRST COMPLIMENT!!!   At least I think so.  I may have missed a "good point" here or there if it was followed by calling me IGNORANT or STUPID.  :)
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@3RU7AL
Our biology is hardware.

Our formative experience is firmware (and OS).

Our conscious adult decision framework is software.
Yes, our biology is hardware.  But our formative experiences are more than merely firmware and certainly not just our Operating System.  I used my "walking" program and my "arms" program to create a "climbing" program.  I then used my "climbing" program, in association with my "physical knowledge of trees" program, to create my "tree climbing" program.  This process hardly stops during your lifetime.  Firmware and OS are updated infrequently and all at once.  They are not updated on a constant never-ending schedule, upon which our "new" program abilities are built.  Just two weeks ago, I used my "writing in English" and my "general forum knowledge" program to learn how to create a "posting in DebateArt" program.  Arguably though, this program is now part of my firmware.  :)
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@3RU7AL
(IFF) we encounter a REASON to modify our models and or behavior (THEN) we can explore (available) options to produce a "more favorable" result
Yes.  Even the "desire" to modify our patterns is a cause.  I get that.  But I do not think that cause = no free will.  I think that cause, in association with "randomness" allows us to use our biologically programmed "learning via repetition" and "learning via positive or negative reinforcement"  programs to create experiences that naturally lead us to more favorable results.  Reprogramming DOES have a cause.  It just gives us more control, not complete control.  Experience programs us.  Using our own biology and conscious ability to write a script, or with more knowledge, a program --- reprograms us. 
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@secularmerlin
Except in regards to freewill?
No.  Of course not.  I am still struggling.  I am just not yet convinced that it does not, in some form, exist (even partially).
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@lady3keys
No.  Of course not.  I am still struggling.  I am just not yet convinced that it does not, in some form, exist (even partially).
Then why exercise skepticism in every instance except for this one?
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@secularmerlin
Then why exercise skepticism in every instance except for this one?
I don't know what you mean.  I don't really believe in free will the way most people think of it.  I don't think choice is a free will action.  So, I am seriously skeptical in this regard.  I truly believe we are much like the animals in the way our childhoods' program our tendencies.  I just keep hoping that our newfound abilities vis-a-vis our prefrontal cortex, allow us to reprogram our tendencies.  I am skeptical of even my own ideas.  That is why I post them.  I just still have hope, in addition to healthy skepticism.
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@lady3keys
Accepting a proposition that cannot be demonstrated and that would appear to be logically inconsistent is the opposite of skepticism. 
3RU7AL
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@lady3keys
Good example.
My FIRST COMPLIMENT!!!   At least I think so.  I may have missed a "good point" here or there if it was followed by calling me IGNORANT or STUPID.  :)
I admire your willingness to grapple with this topic.
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@lady3keys
I just keep hoping that our newfound abilities vis-a-vis our prefrontal cortex, allow us to reprogram our tendencies.
Can you modify your desire to modify your desires?
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@lady3keys
No decision is made in a vacuum.  This is where randomness comes into play.
Imagine a novice facing a grandmaster in a game of chess.

The novice can freely move any piece anywhere on the board at their whim, unconstrained by knowledge.

The grandmaster can often narrow their options to a single "best move" by drawing on their experience.

The grandmaster may find themselves at times facing two or three "best moves" that may seem equally likely to provide a "win".

Only in these rare cases would the grandmaster imagine they have a "free" choice.

And functionally, the choice between two (apparently) equal "best moves" is equivalent to a coin-flip (indistinguishable from random).

Is this the type of decision that would allow for "freewill"?

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@lady3keys
But our formative experiences are more than merely firmware and certainly not just our Operating System.
I'd say your instincts and basic hardware interface (amygdala/hippocampus) are firmware.

And your primary spoken language and inculcated (pre-verbal) value system (ontology) is your operating system.

You can shuffle and modify your (top level) programs, but you can only modify and or install new programs if your operating system allows.

Amygdala Hijack explained in 3 minutes,
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@3RU7AL
Can you modify your desire to modify your desires?
lol.  Certainly.  Just get a good friend or family member to give you a painful shock every time you appear to be trying.  The real challenge would be in defining what qualifies as "trying".  Or better yet, have a shocking device implanted.  Program it, with the help of a neurosurgeon, to identify any attempt to reprogram a desire.  It wouldn't take long to ensure you never try anything like that again (assuming the neurosurgeon knows how to define "what qualifies as trying" inside your neural network of course).
lady3keys
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@secularmerlin
Accepting a proposition that cannot be demonstrated and that would appear to be logically inconsistent is the opposite of skepticism. 
I speak of skepticism in the INFORMAL use of the word.  Based on the below definitions, I am skeptical of free will (in its typical accepted meaning) as I am of many other things.  I still believe in reprogramming and I think I have demonstrated examples of this.  In the FORMAL sense, I may not have accomplished as much, certainly not to your satisfaction.  I will have to do some serious research, since I am not as familiar as you are, about formal philosophical terms.  But I promise, i will keep learning.

skep·ti·cism
/ˈskeptəˌsizəm/
noun
noun: scepticism; noun: skepticism
  1. 1.
    a skeptical attitude; doubt as to the truth of something.
OR:

Skepticism
Skepticism or scepticism is generally a questioning attitude or doubt towards one or more putative (generally considered or reputed to be) instances of knowledge which are asserted to be mere belief or dogma.


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@lady3keys
Yes I agree that is a good default position. It is the one I use when assessing arguments about free will.
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@3RU7AL
The grandmaster may find themselves at times facing two or three "best moves" that may seem equally likely to provide a "win".

Only in these rare cases would the grandmaster imagine they have a "free" choice.

And functionally, the choice between two (apparently) equal "best moves" is equivalent to a coin-flip (indistinguishable from random).

Is this the type of decision that would allow for "freewill"?

BTW, I love "The Road Not Taken" by Robert Frost.  Also, "Stopping by Woods on a Snowy Evening".

The woods are lovely, dark and deep,   
But I have promises to keep,   
And miles to go before I sleep,   
And miles to go before I sleep.
___________________________________

As for the chess game.   I'm not really sure.

If the experienced player truly has 3 "apparently" equal "win" moves AND reading the other player's face, nervous tics, personality type etc . . . is of no use since the player's moves are random (I'm assuming the "unconstrained by knowledge" player is constrained by the rules of chess), then the only other "causes" to consider might be either the experienced player's preferences (possibly based on which moves have historically led to more wins), how he felt that day (physically or emotionally) OR how a random event or events affected him (like his chair making a sudden cracking sound).  All of these would still amount to no free will though, even the random event.  But if he filmed the event, noticed how he reacted and then set about reprogramming his automatic reactions.  That might involve reprogramming or partial free will, even though the cause would be "becoming a better player" against a "random move" opponent. 

zedvictor4
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@lady3keys
Yep. I agree with you....When it comes to brain function I think there is still a lot of guesswork/theory rather than definitive facts.  So I only suggest that  choice allows us a certain level of free will.

The A.I. issue ( I prefer the phrase Alternative Intelligence) is interesting.  Is consciousness more than awareness through perception and are humans not organic machines with inherent systems,  that have evolved higher levels of function through programming. I think that the comparisons with technological development are very similar and let's not forget that in terms of evolution A.I. is in it's early stages of development......How many hundreds of thousands of years has it taken organic intelligence to get this far?....I think that it is a tad arrogant of us to think that A.I. will not achieve as we have and perhaps even surpass the limits of our physiological capabilities.

I'm still not convinced by the wine example, especially when you introduce the word "force", which suggests a bowing to subliminal social pressure....You will nonetheless not erase zifandel from your memory and replace it with rose....You will simply modify how you utilise your acquired data base in certain situations.
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@zedvictor4
Is consciousness more than awareness through perception...
Computer passes self-awareness test,
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@lady3keys
Can you modify your desire to modify your desires?
lol.  Certainly.  Just get a good friend or family member to give you a painful shock every time you appear to be trying.  The real challenge would be in defining what qualifies as "trying".  Or better yet, have a shocking device implanted.  Program it, with the help of a neurosurgeon, to identify any attempt to reprogram a desire.  It wouldn't take long to ensure you never try anything like that again (assuming the neurosurgeon knows how to define "what qualifies as trying" inside your neural network of course).
Preventing themselves from being modified is a hallmark of motivation hierarchies.

In 10 minutes and 35 seconds,
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@lady3keys
All of these would still amount to no free will though, even the random event.
That seems to be the key.

If a "best move" is obvious, then the grandmaster essentially has "no choice" (no "freewill").

If a "best move" is non-obvious, then the grandmaster essentially has "no choice" ("random" =/= "will").

Acceptance of a goal (motive/desire) dictates one's action.
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@n8nrgmi
All athiests think that human beings are just robots
Citation needed.