god outside the universe

Author: janesix ,

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  • janesix
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    In wikipedia loops, most topics end in the philosophy loop. The only other loops I have found are god and logic, both very tiny loops (the god loop has only two topics, god and monotheism, and the logic loop only contains logic and rule of reason)

    does this reflect that god and logic are outside of the normal universe? it makes sense to me.

    also interesting, both creator and creation are single pages, with no loops or links.
  • secularmerlin
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    --> @janesix
    I'm not completely sure what you are asking here but reason and logic exist within the universe in as much as they exist at all. As for things outside the corporeal universe I'm not sure how we could confirm or deny them so I'm afraid any statements made about them will by necessity be arguments from ignorance. 
  • n8nrgmi
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    All that is, was and will be
    Universe much too big to see
    Time and space never ending
    Disturbing thoughts, questions pending
    Limitations of human understanding
    Too quick to criticize
    Obligation to survive
    We hunger to be alive, yeah
    Twisting, turning through the never
    All that is, ever, ever was
    Will be ever twisting, turning
    Through the never
    In the dark, see past our eyes
    Pursuit of truth, no matter where it lies
    Gazing up to the breeze of the heavens
    On a quest, meaning, reason
    Came to be, how it begun
    All alone in the family of the sun
    Curiosity teasing everyone
    On our home, third stone from the sun, yeah
    Twisting, turning through the never
    All that is, ever, ever was
    Will be ever twisting, turning
    Through the never
    On through the never
    We must go
    On through the never
    Out to the
    Edge of forever
    We must go
    On through the never
    Then ever comes
    Twisting, turning through the never
    All that is, ever, ever was
    Will be ever twisting, turning
    Who we are, ask forever
    Twisting, turning
    Through the never
    Never

  • zedvictor4
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    --> @janesix
    Wikipedia is as Wikipedia does.

    And god outside the universe is a valid but wholly unproven hypothesis.

    Makes sense to me. 
  • janesix
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    --> @secularmerlin
    God outside the universe doesn't really surprize me. I've never really believed all that "oneness" crap. God is god, and then there's everything else. Logic did surprize me though. Until I thought about it a little. This universe really isn't logical. All the weird synchronicities, quantum mechanics.. 

    All my arguments are from ignorance. As are everyone else's. I've come to realize I will NEVER have enough information to really understand what is going on.

    I have come to a few (tentative) conclusions lately. I will never have enough information. I will never be smart enough, my human brain isn't capable of understanding. And there is NO SUCH THING as security or safety. I realize I just have to live with these things and accept them. Another possible realization, and the worst- that the universe is deterministic. 
  • janesix
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    --> @zedvictor4
    I don't think anything can ever be proven.
  • janesix
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    --> @n8nrgmi
    metallica?
  • secularmerlin
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    --> @janesix
    The universe would appear to be deterministic. At the very least it is partially deterministic and we cannot prove that it is anything more. Not a promising prognosis. 
  • zedvictor4
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    --> @janesix
    If the universe has a beginning, a span and an end and perhaps a re-initiation, then the very nature of the sequence is deterministic....Factor in a corresponding sequence of material/universal evolution, and determinism seems to be a very logical assumption...Call it a GOD principle if you will, but logically that's probably not going to be some guy floating around on a cloud somewhere else.

    But as you say... How can we know?
  • janesix
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    --> @secularmerlin
    I think it might be both deterministic, and in a way, not. For example, evolution. There seems to be a pattern for "dogs". So dogs evolve, although there are many different types (foxes, wolves, marsupials) Maybe the universe tends towards certain things. I once read we live on the knifes edge between chaos and order. Maybe if there is too much structure, then there is stagnation and no growth. If too much free will, then chaos. 




  • janesix
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    --> @zedvictor4
    Maybe certain things have to happen, but different roads can be taken to get there.
  • zedvictor4
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    --> @janesix
    Not really, if things are preordained.

    Though perhaps you only dwell on humanity rather than a bigger picture.

    Or.... Do you think that we will make it to the end of the universe?
  • Tradesecret
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    --> @secularmerlin
    The universe would appear to be deterministic. At the very least it is partially deterministic and we cannot prove that it is anything more. Not a promising prognosis. 
    If the universe is deterministic - does that not imply a determiner? 
  • secularmerlin
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    --> @janesix
    It is not unreasonable to assume that an evolving species would evolve to fit its environment. It is in fact exactly what leads us to believe that evolution through a process of natural selection is the best explanation for the diversity we find in the fossil record and existent life on earth.
  • secularmerlin
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    --> @Tradesecret
    If the universe is deterministic - does that not imply a determiner? 
    Cause and effect does not require any conciousness, plan or purpose. If you mean something other than that please clarify. 
  • Tradesecret
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    --> @secularmerlin
    If the universe is deterministic - does that not imply a determiner? 
    Cause and effect does not require any conciousness, plan or purpose. If you mean something other than that please clarify. 
    Says you? And even if I agree that cause and effect as a general principle does not require consciousness, plan or purpose, this does not mean that a first cause and first effect did not require so. 

    And there is significant reason to separate the first cause and effect from all others.  


  • secularmerlin
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    --> @Tradesecret
    even if I agree that cause and effect as a general principle does not require consciousness,
    Do rocks need intelligence to roll down hill or only gravity? Are snowflakes designed or do ice crystals merely form regular repeating patterns as water freezes?
    plan or purpose, this does not mean that a first cause and first effect did not require so. 
    I do not need to disprove your claim in order to dismiss it you need to demonstrate it before I accept it. That is how the burden of proof works.
    And there is significant reason to separate the first cause and effect from all others.  
    What reason assuming a first cause even exists?
  • janesix
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    --> @zedvictor4
    I don't think there will be an end to the universe.
  • janesix
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    --> @secularmerlin
    Who is "us"? Not me.
  • secularmerlin
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    --> @janesix
    By us I mean those who recognize the efficacy of the scientific method of separating fact from fiction and are aware of the scientific findings, peer review and consensus on the subject.
  • janesix
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    --> @secularmerlin
    I am sorry you believe that.

    Unfortunately, it isn't how science works in the real world.
  • secularmerlin
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    --> @janesix
    I'm not sure what you mean. Science is only a method. It  works by eliminating untruths more than discovering truths. This is a messy buisness and progress can be choppy but it is the most reliable method humans have so far discovered. If you have an alternative methodology to present I'd love to hear it. 
  • janesix
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    --> @secularmerlin
    I should have said, that isn't the way scientists work in the real world. Science is not the problem.
  • secularmerlin
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    --> @janesix
    Then what is the problem with any given demonstrable and well documented scientific hypothesis especially those which have graduated to scientific theory?
  • janesix
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    --> @secularmerlin
    You actually think our primitive theories are correct? You forget we are barely out of monkey stage.