Top 20 debaters of DART 2020 according to RM

Author: RationalMadman ,

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Posts in total: 56
  • RationalMadman
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    1. Oromagi "Genius of Research,  MMA Kingpin."
    2. Ragnar "Tai Chi Guru of the BoP shift"
    3. Whiteflame "Extremely Charismatic Nerd"
    4. Ramshutu "Merciless Exploiter of Weaknesses"
    5. RationalMadman "Kung Fu Multidisciplinary Beast"
    6. Blamonkey "Hermitic Ninja"
    7. Alec/TheUnderdog "Jiu Jitsu Propagandist"
    8. Trent0405 "Valiant Knight of Solid Citation"
    9. TheRealNihilist "Brutally Aggressive Case Builder"
    10. MisterChris "Karate Propagandist"
    11. SemperFortis "High IQ Chameleon"
    12. Zaradi "Revered Wielder of Philosophical Artillery"
    13. Discipulus_Didicit "Ramshutu's Apprentice"
    14. Intelligence_06/User_06 "Prodigy of the Dark Arts"
    15. Bsh1 "Rhetoric Warrior of the Left"
    16. Speedrace "Sumo Master of the Defensive Rebuttal"
    17. Imabench "That Legend Everyone Forgot They All Remember"
    18. bmdrocks21 "Merciless Underdog"
    19. Death23 "Drunken Fist Zombie"
    20. ArmoredCat "Brick-Breaking Rebuker"

  • MisterChris
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    --> @RationalMadman
    Interesting list. Why is Bsh1 so low?
  • MisterChris
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    --> @RationalMadman
    Also, I like the nicknames
  • RationalMadman
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    --> @MisterChris
    Why shouldn't he be? He only beat me due to Whiteflame completely misunderstanding my case and only wins on very popular sides of very mainstream topics. I have never once seen Bsh1 take an unconventional stance or carry out a creative noobsnipe. He's a machine of popular deduction and those ranked above him do what he does better or are more creative (or both).
  • MisterChris
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    --> @RationalMadman
    Haven't seen him debate personally, so I can't comment. We'll see what the others think though
  • RationalMadman
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    --> @MisterChris
    It takes a few clicks and some time and you will have seen what I have seen. He is uncreative, 'copy paste edit mainstream argument' robotic but he is very good at being it compared to most who try to be that way.
  • RationalMadman
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    --> @MisterChris

    okay, he has taken a stance supporting polygamy but let's not ignore that his opponent was barely trying whatsoever, his opponent's weakness is why he won. I guarantee he will have stumbled if Wylted was more like Thett3, Ragnar, Oromagi or someone like that.
  • MisterChris
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    --> @RationalMadman
    Looking at it, I think he's pretty darn good. Not sure where I'd rank him though. 
  • RationalMadman
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    --> @MisterChris
    That's because he debates similar to you.
  • MisterChris
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    --> @RationalMadman
    I'd have to examine his arguments more closely to see if that's true, so I'll take your word for it. We structure our cases very different but the arguments themselves may be very similar
  • RationalMadman
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    --> @MisterChris
    You don't structure that differently, he just makes it look prettier, you make it look chunkier as you mimicked Oromagi.

    The whole 'vote Pro' or 'vote Con' thing at the end is something Bsh1 was the first to make mainstream on this website. On DDO that was more normal I think.
  • RationalMadman
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    --> @MisterChris
    I didn't rank this solely based on 'superior rank will defeat inferior rank in a 1v1' there's quite a few factors involved and tbph me and ramshutu are joint fifth but I don't want to deny his success in the ring just because he was the main reason outside of the ring that I lost mine (voting).
  • MisterChris
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    --> @RationalMadman
    You don't structure that differently, he just makes it look prettier, you make it look chunkier as you mimicked Oromagi.

    I'd say I've drawn inspiration from Oromagi's style, but I think by now I've made my own more unique style. Sort of a fusion between Ragnar and Oromagi's cases. 

    But yeah, chunkier
  • RationalMadman
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    --> @MisterChris
    Ragnar's style is itself based on Bsh's it just has more formatting than Bsh1 tends to use. Idk why this is important, the skill of the debater isn't always in formatting.

    I personally don't like Oromagi's formatting style at all, it actually gives me a headache to read at times because parts that are emboldened or capitalised should just be left plain and lowercase for a smoother read, that doesn't mean he's less of a debater but let's say he was equal in other areas to another, then yeah it would factor in.

    Oromagi's only weaknesses are his formatting and that he tends to be less aware of how his case can go wrong than most top-tier debaters. What he does instead is hyper-builds attacks onto the opponent's case by researching things no one else would think of and using quotes and data in a destructive combination that allows his case to look less damaged. 

    When he is against me, for instance, you will find that he rarely addresses my rebuttals as much as focuses on the points of himself I failed to destroy, he then builds them more and angles them very gently back at my rebuttals. He basically regenerates health, rather than being high in armour or magic-resist, if we talk from an RPG perspective. Ramshutu and I are much more defensive than the top 3 debaters, who are primarily offensive. Ramshutu and myself react a lot more to the pace and structure of our opponent, putting in less effort vs a lazier opponent and more effort vs a tryhard (even if they are weak at debating). This is because we both structure our cases 'around' the other, generally speaking. His only non-forfeiting loss is against me and he also has beaten me brutally by baiting me well to debate something that simply is too hard to prove in the debating arena, I don't regret taking it though as I am happy to lose sometimes. Losing is a part of winning, it's healthy to lose and humble yourself.
  • BearMan
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    aw man...

    :(
  • MisterChris
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    --> @BearMan
    lol, you should make your own list
  • SirAnonymous
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    --> @RationalMadman
    This list was worth it just for the nicknames. Well done.
  • seldiora
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    seldiora

  • RationalMadman
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    --> @seldiora
    So what? Bsh1 wasn't above whiteflame on your list.

    Also, beating someone once is like a poker tournament win, which you are happily calling luck in our debate. Even if you are saying that as a devil's advocate, the point I am making to you is that it's over many debates and the playstyle and a lot of other things, that we can determine superior players.
  • RationalMadman
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    --> @seldiora
    Bsh1 has also lost, so what about that? Is everyone who beat him ranked above him?
  • seldiora
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    also based on Whiteflame's consistency I feel like Oromagi's slightly below him. "The beast slayer" Larz may very well be capable of gaining a deserved win given his unusual victories over seemingly better debaters
  • RationalMadman
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    --> @seldiora
    I am not sure where you get your ideas from but whiteflame's consistency is due to him debating far less often and putting 100% effort into it with ease as he's only in 1 at a time. Oromagi takes on many and slays them all, often overkilling his opponent with brutal effectiveness.

    Oromagi has improved significantly over time, whereas Whiteflame has plateaud. As for why I consider Oromagi the superior DART debater, that's blatant even statistically but also based on that he strives to give everyone a challenge at some point, it's others who fear him.

    He's careful with his topics and sides but Whiteflame is even more so.
  • seldiora
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    I'm still not entirely convinced. Whiteflame feels more consistent with tackling extremely difficult opponents and trying to improve. He lost against Larz twice (including the Edeb8 about vaccination), the man who had managed to also defeat Raisor, who feels definitively better than Oromagi. His battle against TUF (https://www.debate.org/debates/2nd-DDO-Census-Debate-Syrian-Refugees/1/) proved his worth, with the latter having defeated Mikal, who is arguably the noob sniping king and debates far more varied topics than Oromagi (https://www.debate.org/debates/The-United-States-Should-Adopt-No-Gay-Zones/1/).

    He has also gone toe to toe against Fourtrouble (https://www.debate.org/debates/Assisted-suicide-should-be-illegal./1/), who has managed to tie thett3 (https://www.debate.org/debates/United-Nations-peacekeepers-should-have-the-power-to-engage-in-offensive-operations/1/), won against thett3 (https://www.debate.org/debates/Conservatism-and-Libertarianism/1/). Remember that even Roy, who established himself as a strong debater in politics, especially by defeating a gauntlet which had imabench and conservative politico, personally has only lost to Raisor, thett3, TUF, Daneille, and a handful of others ( https://www.debate.org/RoyLatham/debates/1/lost). The top tier debaters in DDO feel consistently raising themselves above Oromagi in quality of sheer debate, while Oromagi has only been up against bsh1 and lost against him. Bsh1's prowess has been proved throughout his debates in DDO and his debate against Blamonkey clearly infers that he is a level above Oromagi. The way Oromagi does kritiks seems cheating and he has never done one of the mainstream issues against an actual competent debater (no offense to Intelligence or MisterChris, they feel a level below bsh1/thett3/roylatham).
  • seldiora
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    Until Oromagi tries to battle Whiteflame for his 100th win though, I guess it's too hard to say for sure. Maybe he was too lazy before and so only Ragnar and Bsh1 were the competent debaters he faced. He might've been too lazy to battle thett3/raisor/mikal and the gang. After 90 more debates, he may have raised himself to bsh1/blamonkey level. It's difficult to say because Whiteflame's penetrating insight is definitely more obvious than Oromagi's.
  • RationalMadman
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    --> @seldiora
    What makes you think I'm trying to convince you? You are entitled to your ranking and I am entitled to mine. At the end of the day, Oromagi is the best debater in DART right now in every single category that is measurable. Did he play dirty at times and get unfairly voted to win because his opponent wasn't liked as much and he was known to vote for people who vote for him? That's another discussion to have and Mikal did similar things on DDO, though I will like to say a disclaimer 'theoretically'.

    The fact is that in all borderline situations, Oromagi has an unwritten arrangement with Ragnar now and Ramshutu before, as well as others here. He has gained a following who enjoy him winning for a variety of reasons, not always to be voted for in return. We can sit and deny this exists or admit it does and that he does it well, within the technical rules and is very good at playing as dirty as he can get away with, even making other efficient debaters look dirtier (like me) for doing the same thing he does when he debates users who have left the site, banned or not.

    Oromagi is a ferociously good debater and tactician, let alone strategist. Whatever you say about him, you cannot deny these things. I don't like him and he sometimes pretends to not dislike me but I respect his ability at what he does, because honestly he's the only guy here who pretty much equals me in every single category I excel at in debates, bar presentation, whilst being superior to me in many others. I think I could defeat him in weirder topics and also think I could defeat him in other arenas, games etc. He's a brilliant Internet debater on this website and this is due to all kinds of factors, including understanding voters.

    Unwritten vote-for-me-I-help-you-out is in many things in the Internet and even IRL in workplaces. You can't stop it, you can only prevent the written solid agreements and official verbal arrangements if someone else overhears or one of them snitches. Oromagi knows what he is doing in every regard, both dirty and honest, and wins every single fucking debate he has now.

    That is something to admit and respect, no matter what you think.