Is ohio lost for dems?

Author: Dr.Franklin ,

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  • Dr.Franklin
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    even though obama won it twice, the state has been trending more and more red over the years and now the margin is 8% for trump, thats a greater margin than texas and minnesota

    granted iowa is showing the same trend but the soon-to-be 17 elecotal votes is a much bigger prize

    so is Ohio lost for Dems?
  • Dr.Franklin
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    this also means ohio wont be a bellwether anymore like Missouri which is the most important take away from this
  • bmdrocks21
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    --> @Dr.Franklin
    Until they have something to offer to the White working class, I'd say that yes, it is lost for them.
  • Dr.Franklin
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    good point, they are some good things repubs can take away like in Flordia and ohio and some bad things eve though trump won
  • thett3
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    Ohio is pretty much ground zero for the Democratic betrayal of the working class. It’s GONE until the next realignment comes 
  • bmdrocks21
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    I think that if Republicans really care, they will start taking the opioid epidemic seriously. It is killing thousands of their people in West Virginia and Ohio.

    But the Republican party doesn't demonize the "backwards, mouth-breathing hicks and yokels" in those areas like the Democrats do. Dems pretend to care about the working class, but that really only means the working class that votes for them.
  • lady3keys
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    Ohio is pretty much ground zero for the Democratic betrayal of the working class. It’s GONE until the next realignment comes 
    I'm probably going to regret this, but how have the Democrats betrayed the working class in Ohio? 

    I live in Ohio.  I am college educated.  But,  I really DO want to know what betrayals you are talking about.  They must be there and I'm just not seeing them.  I am still trying to understand the white working class fascination with Trump (aside from his "public" stance on abortion).   It seems to me that Trumpism works well for the rich, but behind the scenes it doesn't seem to really help the working class  very much.  They still had to work 2 and 3  jobs to make ends meet.  He was trying to take away any pretense of an "affordable" healthcare plan (not saying Obamacare was a great plan  --  but it allowed for preconditions and was affordable for my mother).

    I know a lot of people in Ohio who voted for Biden.  But everywhere I went, I saw nothing but Trump signs.  People kept saying that Biden wanted to raise taxes.  I heard that a lot!   But it just wasn't true, unless of course you made over 400K a year.  I heard a lot of conspiracies.  What I want to know now is the truth.  I'm an Independent.  I, obviously, voted for Biden.  But I really want to know more about these "SHY" Trump voters and why they exist.  I truly do not understand.  I hope Ohio isn't lost.  But Democrats better start paying attention to the white working class.
  • Dr.Franklin
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    --> @lady3keys
    its that Trump targeted these exact voters thus dems demonized them, they have also promoted welfare and the destabilization of the family

    its a combination of many things that lead these voters to support trump,
  • thett3
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    --> @lady3keys
    You won’t regret it. I’m nice 

    I guess my post was a little unfair to democrats because both parties have betrayed the working class. Why do YOU believe that Ohio has shifted so far to the right? You live there, so you probably have more insight than I do. To make a long story short, the way I see it is that Ohio is packed full of the kinds of people who have been getting absolutely shafted by the kind of neoliberal consensus that people like McCain, Bush, Romney, Obama, Clinton and Biden are all a part of. So many factory towns have been absolutely screwed as the powers that be have decided we dont need heavy industry here anymore. 

    NAFTA was a bipartisan effort but with rare exceptions it’s now republicans who are fighting for the worker on trade, which is a massive deal in states like Ohio, Wisconsin, and Pennsylvania. President Donald Trumps efforts to fight for American workers on this front have been mostly ineffectual but the gesture is important. I’m hoping that a new consensus emerges and we move more towards an economy like Germany has where it’s a modern society but they still have a lot of industry and don’t try to pigeonhole everybody into going to college 
  • lady3keys
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    --> @thett3
    NAFTA was a bipartisan effort but with rare exceptions it’s now republicans who are fighting for the worker on trade, which is a massive deal in states like Ohio, Wisconsin, and Pennsylvania. President Donald Trumps efforts to fight for American workers on this front have been mostly ineffectual but the gesture is important. I’m hoping that a new consensus emerges and we move more towards an economy like Germany has where it’s a modern society but they still have a lot of industry and don’t try to pigeonhole everybody into going to college 
    I was born and raised in Ohio and I still don't understand them. 

    My parents worked in factories.  My mother re-married a farmer.  He voted for Biden because of what Trump did with China.  I'm not aware of many farmers who were in favor of Trump.  But boy, the construction workers, the factory workers, the department and grocery store workers, the truck drivers, the secretaries, the working-class protestants . . . etc . .   To me, it seemed fairly simple.  Whenever I asked, I got short sentences in response like, "Biden wants to take our freedom away" or "Biden is going to raise taxes" or "Democrats will legalize late term abortion".  And they "seemed" to believe these things, even though they are not true.  To me, it seemed like they believed them because Trump was charismatic and the Democrats MOST CERTAINLY were, and are, NOT!

    I guess I wanted to know if there was more to it than that.  Did all these people ONLY watch Fox News?    Were they responding to Trump's drama and emotionalism or to his actual intention of acting in their best interests?  Did they really think Dr. Fauci should be "fired" like they chanted?   . . . or that Obama should be "locked up"?  Would they like someone to chant that about them with no proof?  JUST WHO WERE THESE PEOPLE WITH TORCHES?   Oh my God!  They were from Ohio?   Ohhhhhh   Nooooooooooooooo!

    You see my delimma?
  • lady3keys
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    --> @thett3
    I’m hoping that a new consensus emerges and we move more towards an economy like Germany has where it’s a modern society but they still have a lot of industry and don’t try to pigeonhole everybody into going to college 
    Sorry.  Forgot to answer this.  I ABSOLUTELY agree with this.  People spend years developing "mad skills" and we treat that by condescending and belittling.  I think there should be automatic degrees given for people who spend years honing a specific set of skills.  If you cannot afford college, then "work years earned" should come into play.   It might take a hell of a  lot longer, but this way you are always working TOWARD something ---  toward something you earned and should be recognized for.  There should be other caveats as well, but you get the idea.
  • lady3keys
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    --> @Dr.Franklin
    its that Trump targeted these exact voters thus dems demonized them, they have also promoted welfare and the destabilization of the family

    its a combination of many things that lead these voters to support trump,
    I'm not sure about the welfare thing or the destabilization of the family, but there is truth to the idea that Democrats demonized the "Trump Base".  It wasn't so wise of the dems to put Trump supporters down as "ignorant" or "beneath them".  I grimaced a little each time I heard that.  But they were hurling many, many hateful things as well.  I saw T-Shirts that read "I'D RATHER BE A RUSSIAN THAN A DEMOCRAT".  Really?  Honestly?  

    I'm Independent, but my Democrat friends VERY MUCH believe in family . . . . they just believe in family for EVERYONE!
  • Dr.Franklin
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    --> @lady3keys
    its tough now for americans to make a good living without fear or worry and these voters blame dems for good reasons
  • lady3keys
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    --> @Dr.Franklin
    its tough now for americans to make a good living without fear or worry and these voters blame dems for good reasons
    I'm not sure what you mean by "good reasons"???
  • ILikePie5
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    --> @lady3keys
    I'm probably going to regret this, but how have the Democrats betrayed the working class in Ohio? 
    No reason to regret it. We value civil discourse.

    I live in Ohio.  I am college educated.  But,  I really DO want to know what betrayals you are talking about.  They must be there and I'm just not seeing them.  I am still trying to understand the white working class fascination with Trump (aside from his "public" stance on abortion).   It seems to me that Trumpism works well for the rich, but behind the scenes it doesn't seem to really help the working class  very much.  They still had to work 2 and 3  jobs to make ends meet.  He was trying to take away any pretense of an "affordable" healthcare plan (not saying Obamacare was a great plan  --  but it allowed for preconditions and was affordable for my mother).
    Every coin has a flip side. No one disagrees that we should cover pre-existing conditions. The question is whether the govt should do more than that or let the markets establish healthcare, because market forces are very powerful.

    I know a lot of people in Ohio who voted for Biden.  But everywhere I went, I saw nothing but Trump signs.  People kept saying that Biden wanted to raise taxes.  I heard that a lot!   But it just wasn't true, unless of course you made over 400K a year.
    Well Joe Biden did say he wanted to repeal “Trump Tax Cuts” which gave 65% of Americans a tax cut.



      I heard a lot of conspiracies.  What I want to know now is the truth.  I'm an Independent.  I, obviously, voted for Biden.  But I really want to know more about these "SHY" Trump voters and why they exist. 
    It’s simple. Cancel Culture. The average college undergrad is afraid to talk about liking Trump for the fear of losing their jobs, friends, and even family. I’m a college student at one of the most liberal colleges in the nation. I’m genuinely afraid that if I say something about Trump, I will be penalized in terms of my grades. In my Instagram and Snapchat feeds, all I see is liberals saying if you support Trump, unfriend me. I have yet to see a conservative say that. That being said, ofc there are people that are like you that value other people’s judgements. I have friends on the opposite side that are just like you, and I respect them for it. Politics shouldn’t come in the way of relationships.

    I truly do not understand.  I hope Ohio isn't lost.  But Democrats better start paying attention to the white working class.
    They really should. The heart of White Working Class workers lies in Ashtabula, Trumbull, and Mahoning Counties. Trump won the first two my margins larger than 2016, and ended up flipping Mahoning County (Youngstown) as well. It’s not so much as a Democrats vs Republican. It’s Trump vs Democrat/Republican/Media.
  • lady3keys
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    It’s simple. Cancel Culture. The average college undergrad is afraid to talk about liking Trump for the fear of losing their jobs, friends, and even family. I’m a college student at one of the most liberal colleges in the nation. I’m genuinely afraid that if I say something about Trump, I will be penalized in terms of my grades. In my Instagram and Snapchat feeds, all I see is liberals saying if you support Trump, unfriend me. I have yet to see a conservative say that.

    Cancel Culture?  I hate it.  And, for the record, I hate extreme PC culture too.  I dislike having to CONSTANTLY edit absolutely everything I say.  It's exhausting.  But, of course, I do make a distinction between racial slurs and being called out for using the word "stupid" in reference to a malfunctioning printer (it WAS stuuuuuuuuuuuupid --- I don't care what Kelly from HR said!). 

    But seriously,  I'm sorry you have that experience.  I have the exact opposite where I am.  At work I'm usually okay.  I work in tech and a lot of us are moderate or liberal.  But outside of work, wow!   I once got in a HUGE argument with some guys at the DMV simply because one of them overheard me say Biden's name to my friend standing next to me.  He told his friends and they all moved toward me and an argument ensued.  We were kicked out.  I tried to walk to my car . . . but NO, they followed me.  It wasn't until the manager of the DMV came back out and threatened to call the police that they finally left me alone.

    Needless to say, I didn't celebrate in the streets when Biden became the President-Elect. 

    But do you really think that is the biggest reason people voted for Trump?



  • bmdrocks21
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    --> @lady3keys
    Whenever I asked, I got short sentences in response like, "Biden wants to take our freedom away" or "Biden is going to raise taxes" or "Democrats will legalize late term abortion".  And they "seemed" to believe these things, even though they are not true.  
    Restricting gun rights *check*
    Going to raise taxes *(corporate *check* income *check*)*
    Legalize late term abortion (doubt they would have the balls try it nationally, so I'll give you that one)
  • lady3keys
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    --> @bmdrocks21
    Restricting gun rights *check*
    Going to raise taxes *(corporate *check* income *check*)*
    Legalize late term abortion (doubt they would have the balls try it nationally, so I'll give you that one)
    1. Restricting gun rights:    He only wants universal background checks and an eventual ban on assault weapons. 
    2. Raising taxes:                     He is ONLY raising taxes on people whose income is over 400K a year (don't know much about corporate taxes, so I won't comment there).
    3. Late-term abortion:         It has nothing to do with "the balls to try it".  They don't believe in it!  No one does!  (I'm not saying there isn't some wierdo faction out there).
    As for restricting gun rights . . . . aren't you SICK of school shootings and Walmart massacres?   No one wants to take your gun to defend your home or to make anyone stop hunting.  They just want to stop the ability of some sicko to mow down 15 people in 30 seconds.  THIS IS JUST COMMON SENSE.  Major assault weapons are for the military.  That is who they were designed for!
  • ILikePie5
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    --> @lady3keys
    But do you really think that is the biggest reason people voted for Trump?
    Yup. Just a take a look at the polls. Horribly wrong. Why? They overestimated Biden’s vote with people that hold a bachelor’s degree by a mile. People either outright lied to pollsters, or hung up after learning they were talking to a pollster.

    I’ll give you a case sample: Texas’ 3rd Congressional District: the most educated district Republicans held coming in 2020. The most recent poll conducted by the DCCC showed Biden +11 in that district. Van Taylor the representative was losing 44-42-8. Trump won the district by about 6 points (less than 2016 but not by the margins poll was predicting) Van Taylor won 55-43. In fact, this was the trend in all of Texas. Chip Roy won, Troy Nehls won, Tony Gonzalez won, Beth Van Duyne won. All of the district were Democratic leaning districts per the polls. I’m a suburban resident. I saw two signs maximum compared to the 10-15 I saw in 2018. Why?
  • ILikePie5
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    --> @lady3keys
    1. Restricting gun rights: He only wants universal background checks and an eventual ban on assault weapons.  
    Handguns kill more than “Assault Weapons.” Why isn’t Joe banning them if your goal is to prevent deaths?

    1. Raising taxes:                     He is ONLY raising taxes on people whose income is over 400K a year (don't know much about corporate taxes, so I won't comment there).
    Simply false. He said he’d repeal the “Trump Tax Cuts” which gave 65% of Americans a tax cut. Repeal that and taxes go up, not stay the same.

    1. Late-term abortion:         It has nothing to do with "the balls to try it".  They don't believe in it!  No one does!  (I'm not saying there isn't some wierdo faction out there).
    It’s either abortion up till birth or no abortion at all. You can’t set an arbitrary method that goes against science. If you believe life begins after coming out of the womb then abortion should be legal up till the third trimester. The other side is life begins at conception. There’s no scientific argument that life begins somewhere in the middle.

    As for restricting gun rights . . . . aren't you SICK of school shootings and Walmart massacres?   No one wants to take your gun to defend your home or to make anyone stop hunting.  They just want to stop the ability of some sicko to mow down 15 people in 30 seconds.  THIS IS JUST COMMON SENSE.  Major assault weapons are for the military.  That is who they were designed for! 
    I don’t think you know what an “Assualt Rifle” is. No one wants mass shootings. But that’s all you hear about in the media. How many times have you heard of a gun saving lives? Just take a look at Sutherland Springs, where a man with an AR-15 stopped a shooter. 
  • lady3keys
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    Yup. Just a take a look at the polls. Horribly wrong. Why? They overestimated Biden’s vote with people that hold a bachelor’s degree by a mile. People either outright lied to pollsters, or hung up after learning they were talking to a pollster.
    Okay.  So you're saying people didn't want to tell anyone they were voting for Trump.  And this makes sense if what you are saying about Cancel Culture and being a Trump supporter is true.  On a college campus this makes even more sense.  But in general?  The Trump supporters in Ohio were loud, arrogant and defiant.  And it can't be Cancel Culture in general, because Trump is the King of Cancel Culture. 

    What I mean is that Cancel Culture publicly shames people for not conforming to whatever seems to be culturally relevant at the time.  Trump does this to everyone and every group that goes against ANYTHING he says or does.  He doesn't just stop there either.  He calls them names.  He gets hundreds of people to CHANT and humiliate them publicly.   He fires them for simply doing their job, if in the course of doing that job, they might disagree with him (such as with the path of a hurricane or the existence of a virus).

    I'm beginning to think that things are changing so fast now (i.e.  the hi-tech or the LGBTQ community) that people just want to slam on the breaks sometimes.   And I get that.  But why Trump?   Are they really that afraid of the extreme liberals?  I see them as harmless I guess.  But I suppose to their victims they are most certainly not!  I've just seen so many of Trump's victims.  And this week alone, he has fired so many more, putting in more Trump loyalists despite their expertise or viability.

    I think half the nation voted for Trump because he was emotionally interesting to watch, spoke simply and gave them permission to engage their pettiest instincts.  I think they were sick of politicians and rightly so.  But Trump has all the elements of a good soap opera, not a good president   ----  a lack of MORAL INTEGRITY and a LOT OF CONFLICT.   But a president isn't supposed to get down in the mud with the people.  He is supposed to be the best of us, or at least attempt to be a shining example.  He called people names; so Americans started doing even more of it.  He wanted to build a wall; so Americans starting building hundreds of their own.  We are now more divided than ever.

    I don't want that. 

    So, I am glad there is a letter going around condemning Cancel Culture with so many famous names on it.  But Trump, the President of the United States puts down more people and organizations in 1 day of tweets than most of us could muster in a year.  Knowing this, how could Cancel Culture then be the reason that people voted for Trump?  Trump seems to embody the worst of what Cancel Culture is.
  • bmdrocks21
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    --> @lady3keys
    1. Restricting gun rights:    He only wants universal background checks and an eventual ban on assault weapons. 
    Patently false. That's all he wants? Not allowing law suits against gun companies for misuse of their products? Ban "high-capacity" magazines? Forcible registration of assault weapons (aka the first step towards confiscation)? Take guns from people convicted of MISDEAMEANOR hate crimes? End all online sales of firearms? If firearms are "accessible" to children, they can be prosecuted even if the kid never even saw or touched the gun? 

    No, he just wants "universal background checks and an eventual ban on assault weapons". I guess he just never read his website. https://joebiden.com/gunsafety/

    1. Raising taxes:                     He is ONLY raising taxes on people whose income is over 400K a year (don't know much about corporate taxes, so I won't comment there).
    Said he is repealing Trump tax cuts. Those included middle class tax cuts. Corporate taxes are going to be raised from 21% to 28% if he gets his way.

    1. Late-term abortion:         It has nothing to do with "the balls to try it".  They don't believe in it!  No one does!  (I'm not saying there isn't some wierdo faction out there).
    Depends. New York passed a bill that allows abortions in the third trimester and use ambiguous, undefined terms such as "health" as a valid reason for abortion. It is de facto late-term abortion, not explicit.

    As for restricting gun rights . . . . aren't you SICK of school shootings and Walmart massacres?   No one wants to take your gun to defend your home or to make anyone stop hunting.  They just want to stop the ability of some sicko to mow down 15 people in 30 seconds.  THIS IS JUST COMMON SENSE.  Major assault weapons are for the military.  That is who they were designed for!

    Well most of the perpetrators are thugs who acquire them through illegal means. We have a gun trafficking problem, not a gun problem.

  • lady3keys
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    Handguns kill more than “Assault Weapons.” Why isn’t Joe banning them if your goal is to prevent deaths?
    As I said before, he only wants to stop sickos from mowing down 15 people in 30 seconds.  The goal is to NOT to "prevent death", it is to prevent "unnecessary death".  If you kill someone protecting your family, so be it.  You needed your gun.  You did not need an assault weapon.  But to kill 15 with a single flick of your finger?  THAT IS NEVER OKAY, unless you are in the military and fighting a war.  Responsible gun ownership is all that Biden wants.  No citizen should ever want or need that kind of fire power. 

    It’s either abortion up till birth or no abortion at all. You can’t set an arbitrary method that goes against science. If you believe life begins after coming out of the womb then abortion should be legal up till the third trimester. The other side is life begins at conception. There’s no scientific argument that life begins somewhere in the middle.
    I'm not going against science.  Heaven Forbid!!!  I love science (especially layman-level quantum physics)!  I'm not suggesting a time when life begins.  But I do know that it takes quite awhile for the tissue in the brain to even develop (not the brain stem which starts a little earlier).  I believe in abortions in the first trimester ---  under certain conditions  ---  incest being foremost among them.

    I don’t think you know what an “Assualt Rifle” is. No one wants mass shootings. But that’s all you hear about in the media. How many times have you heard of a gun saving lives? Just take a look at Sutherland Springs, where a man with an AR-15 stopped a shooter. 

    Drawing from federal and state law definitions, the term assault weapon refers primarily to semi-automatic rifles, pistols, and shotguns that are able to accept detachable magazines and possess one or more other features.  I, personally, care the most about the AR-15 type rifles.  As for Sutherland Springs, that is a ridiculous example because the shooter wouldn't have been there if semi-automatic rifles weren't available to citizens.  And if he had gone anyway, the death toll would have been much lower.  And the guy who stopped the shooter was a firearms instructor  --  not an average citizen.  If not, I would have to ask, what was an average citizen doing close to a church, armed with an AR-15?

  • ILikePie5
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    So, I am glad there is a letter going around condemning Cancel Culture with so many famous names on it.  But Trump, the President of the United States puts down more people and organizations in 1 day of tweets than most of us could muster in a year.  Knowing this, how could Cancel Culture then be the reason that people voted for Trump? Trump seems to embody the worst of what Cancel Culture is.
    Trump is the boss. If you don’t do what he tell you to do, you get fired. Simple. You keep your mouth shut and do the job. If you can’t do the job that is being asked, you will be replaced. That is astronomically different than getting fired just cause you’re a conservative Trump supporter lol. 

    I am interested to know where in Ohio you are specifically from. If you’re in the three counties I mentioned earlier, it makes sense why you see so much support. The shy Trump voter is the reason why the polls were wrong, cause let’s face it: conservatives aren’t going to go out of their way to key your car if you support Biden. Certain Democrats will. How many times has Trump specifically called out the general supporter of Biden and how many times has Biden called out Trump supporter of Trump. Biden called us ugly, chumps, liars, he even called a dude fat. I’m a firsthand witness to cancel culture and what Donald Trump says is not even close to what it is. He calls out career bureaucrats and officials.
  • lady3keys
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    --> @bmdrocks21
    1. Restricting gun rights:    He only wants universal background checks and an eventual ban on assault weapons. 
    Patently false. That's all he wants? Not allowing law suits against gun companies for misuse of their products? Ban "high-capacity" magazines? Forcible registration of assault weapons (aka the first step towards confiscation)? Take guns from people convicted of MISDEAMEANOR hate crimes? End all online sales of firearms? If firearms are "accessible" to children, they can be prosecuted even if the kid never even saw or touched the gun? 
    Okay.  I am really tired of hearing about "the first step towards confiscation".  No one is trying to pry your gun out of your fingers!  But WHY do you need more than a handgun????  Why?   I REALLY, REALLY WANT TO KNOW?


    1. Raising taxes:                     He is ONLY raising taxes on people whose income is over 400K a year (don't know much about corporate taxes, so I won't comment there).
    Said he is repealing Trump tax cuts. Those included middle class tax cuts. Corporate taxes are going to be raised from 21% to 28% if he gets his way.
    What I heard was that he was repealing the Trump tax cuts for the wealthy.  As for corporations, Amazon paid nothing for 2 straight years!

    www.cnbc.com › 2020/02/04
    After two straight years of paying $0 in U.S. federal income tax, Amazon was on the hook for a $162 million bill in 2019, the company said in an SEC filing on Thursday. ... In fact, thanks to tax credits and deductions, Amazon actually received a federal tax refund of $129 million.Feb 4, 2020

    1. Late-term abortion:         It has nothing to do with "the balls to try it".  They don't believe in it!  No one does!  (I'm not saying there isn't some wierdo faction out there).
    Depends. New York passed a bill that allows abortions in the third trimester and use ambiguous, undefined terms such as "health" as a valid reason for abortion. It is de facto late-term abortion, not explicit.
    What?  Really?  Unless by "health" you mean "death" --- then that is horrible.  New York really passed a bill like that?  I'll have to do some research on that tomorrow.  But really, that is truly unprecedented.  As for de facto late-term abortion, do you mean they passed an ambiguous law so that anyone wanting a late-term abortion could more easily get one?  I can't believe they would create a bill like that without spelling it out in VERY specific terms.  Like I said.  Horrible if true.