I Didn’t Ask Anyone To Die For Me.

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11.28.2020 07:48PM

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11.28.2020 07:48PM

I didn't ask anyone to die for my crimes or sins or misdemeanours.

By all accounts, and after all the claims made by Christians of humans having “free will” someone did take it upon themselves and committed suicide on my behalf and I didn’t have a say in the matter.

And the idea that I would ask or want anyone to suffer for my crimes or sins is abhorrent and it appals me. Neither my brother nor Jesus is my keeper. And I will suffer and `bare my own cross, ' as it is I that am responsible for my own actions.

But who does the bible say is responsible for our crimes/sins?

The bible seems to suggest we alone are responsible. Deuteronomy11:16 “ take heed of yourself”.

And when the omnipotent lord God himself, he having unlimited power, appears to be unable to locate Able asks his brother;

Genesis4; 9 “Where is Abel your brother?”

He said, “I do not know. Am I my brother's keeper?

“Am I my brother's keeper?”

Is this to say that I am not responsible for anyone but myself, my actions and my own behaviour?

Nowhere will we find a single reference where Jesus admits to his inner circle of coming to specifically do die for their sins. There are a few verses that could be crowbarred into suggesting that he did as much, such as John 3:16, but it will be a struggle to squeeze these words into the mouth of Jesus and sins are not even mentioned, only belief.

I find it appalling that someone is said to have taken responsibility for something I am alleged to have done and had suffered what the scriptures describe as the most vicious, cruel and sadistic death ever dreamed up by humans, voluntarily!

I find also applauding that someone had taken it upon themselves to actually “sacrifice” themselves without my knowledge or consent! On my behalf.

I have directly asked people on this forum (one being a man of the cloth), wouldn’t they too be appalled and find it abhorrent if someone just took it upon themselves to take responsibility for their own sins, crimes and mistakes and sacrificed themselves via an horrific death? I have had no follow up response as of yet.

And as an afterthought:

We notice too that god doesn’t address Cain's reply of responsibility but exiles him for his crime of murdering his brother. Cain complains at gen 4:14 that “it will happen that anyone who finds me will kill me.” but it is never explained who will actually kill Cain considering there were only four humans on the planet at the time of the murder and with them now being a man down leavening only three?

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@Stephen

I didn't ask anyone to die for my crimes or sins or misdemeanours.

By all accounts, and after all the claims made by Christians of humans having “free will” someone did take it upon themselves and committed suicide on my behalf and I didn’t have a say in the matter.

And the idea that I would ask or want anyone to suffer for my crimes or sins is abhorrent and it appals me. Neither my brother nor Jesus is my keeper. And I will suffer and `bare my own cross, ' as it is I that am responsible for my own actions.

You dont no what give it means because you have the mean soul. Jesus he gived his soul and nobody they didnt asked him because he gived and you should never look into the moth of the horse that is a gift or you will miss out.

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@Stephen

I didn't ask anyone to die for my crimes or sins or misdemeanours.

Heroes aren't asked. They selflessly volunteer.

....someone did take it upon themselves and committed suicide on my behalf and I didn’t have a say in the matter.

If you had had a say, you couldn't have then called it "suicide" could you? The other person has free will too, and did not need your "say" to make his own choices.

And the idea that I would ask or want anyone to suffer for my crimes or sins is abhorrent and it appals me.

The idea that you would ask is wholly your idea. If it is abhorrent and appalling, why are you entertaining it? That idea isn't in the bible.

Neither my brother nor Jesus is my keeper. And I will suffer and `bare my own cross, ' as it is I that am responsible for my own actions.

OK. Then what exactly is your problem? Has anyone tried to stop you from being responsible for your own actions? The bible agrees that you are responsible for your own actions.

I find also applauding that someone had taken it upon themselves to actually “sacrifice” themselves without my knowledge or consent! On my behalf.

So you're miffed that Jesus didn't inform you first and then ask your permission?

I have directly asked people on this forum (one being a man of the cloth), wouldn’t they too be appalled and find it abhorrent if someone just took it upon themselves to take responsibility for their own sins, crimes and mistakes and sacrificed themselves via an horrific death? I have had no follow up response as of yet.

Or you ignore their "follow ups" and repost your question as if there was no answer. That behavior is usually referred to as spamming.

...there were only four humans on the planet at the time...

Who told you that?

So your entire post can be boiled down to, "I find this idea appalling" (Never mind that the idea is yours to begin with) My response is, "OK, you find it appalling, so what?" I mean, what response do you expect to a thread where you tell us you don't like something?

I'm trying to understand your intention here.

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@ethang5

And the idea that I would ask or want anyone to suffer for my crimes or sins is abhorrent and it appals me.
That idea isn't in the bible.

I know. That is why I find it so appalling. No one did ask him to do it. Just who did he think he was going around taking the blame and responsibility of others. I still haven't found a single bible reference where anyone asked him to do this on their behalf. Or one where he himself tells anyone that his mission was take responsibility for others and die for their crimes, where the bible suggests the complete opposite and that we are responsible for out own "sins";

Deuteronomy11:16 “ take heed of yourself”.

Genesis4; 9 “Am I my brother's keeper?”

And what's more, not a single one of his disciples appear to have had a clue that this was his mission here on earth.

And to state another biblical fact, Jesus himself says very little about his mission that he was sent to do, such as:

“ I have come to preach good news to the poor....toproclaim freedom for the prisoners and recovery of sight for the blind, to release the oppressed, toproclaim the year of the Lord’s favour.....” Luke 4:18-19, and this bias verse "I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel." Matthew 15:24 . And that is about it really.

So Nope. Not a thing there about dying for someones responsibilities. Indeed, if at all he was a "Messiah" his mission would have been to free the Jews from the Roman yoke which he failed to do.

It is also odd that we are ONLY informed of these so called " heroics of selflessness" years after he was dead, by Christians like me , that had never met him.

I have directly asked people on this forum (one being a man of the cloth), wouldn’t they too be appalled and find it abhorrent if someone just took it upon themselves to take responsibility for their own sins, crimes and mistakes and sacrificed themselves via an horrific death? I have had no follow up response as of yet.
Or you ignore their "follow ups"

" follow up's" in those cases were only noticed by their absence, their absences were not hard to ignore.

...there were only four humans on the planet at the time...
Who told you that?

The same thing that "told you" it was true. #28 & #29 . (be careful)

I'm trying to understand your intention here.

I am not surprised there, I have to be honest. I can only say that it may well be because you have ignored the question entirely and went for the man instead of the ball.. No surprises there, then. Maybe you should leave it there and let those more qualified than you to try explain away or simply answer .

Off you go.

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11.29.2020 04:51PM

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@Stephen

And the idea that I would ask or want anyone to suffer for my crimes or sins is abhorrent and it appals me.

That idea isn't in the bible.

I know. That is why I find it so appalling.

Lol. OK then.

No one did ask him to do it.

Heroes aren't asked. They selflessly volunteer.

I still haven't found a single bible reference where anyone asked him to do this on their behalf.

Why are you looking for it?

And what's more, not a single one of his disciples appear to have had a clue that this was his mission here on earth.

Lol. Jesus told them several times. Perhaps this is like your Lot story where you thought the 2 angels had not lifted a finger.

Not a thing there about dying for someones responsibilities.

Why should there be? Jesus didn't die for anyone's responsibilities. You're upset that the bible DOESN'T say what DID NOT happen??

It is also odd that we are ONLY informed of these so called " heroics of selflessness" years after...

If you read scripture carefully, you'll see it.

...he was dead, ...

He's not dead.

...by Christians like me , that had never met him.

When did you become a Christian?

" follow up's" in those cases were only noticed by their absence, their absences were not hard to ignore.

OK. They are there and the Gentle Readers can see them so there is no point in embarrassing you.

...there were only four humans on the planet at the time...

Who told you that?

The same thing that "told you" it was true. #28 & #29 . (be careful)

I'll take it that you were guessing off the top of your head.

...you have ignored the question entirely...

You ramble. Ok, so what exactly is your question?

...try explain away...

Try to explain what away? Why what Jesus didn't do (die for our responsibilities) isn't mentioned in the bible?? Really?

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#6

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11.29.2020 04:59PM

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11.29.2020 04:59PM

I'm trying to understand your intention here.
I am not surprised there, I have to be honest. I can only say that it may well be because you have ignored the question entirely.

Ok, so what exactly is your question?

Its there to read and answer to it for yourself . It hasn't gone anywhere, #1

And the idea that I would ask or want anyone to suffer for my crimes or sins is abhorrent and it appals me.

That idea isn't in the bible.

I know. That is why I find it so appallingly and shockingly sick . Doesn't it bother you at all? That someone has taken the blame for your crimes and has died saving your sorry scraggy worthless arse?

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11.30.2020 03:03AM

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@Stephen

Ok, so what exactly is your question?

Its there to read and answer to it for yourself . It hasn't gone anywhere, #1

It certainly hasn't gone to your post.

That idea isn't in the bible.

I know. That is why I find it so appallingly and shockingly sick

Lol. You find it sick that a disgusting idea ISN'T in the bible?

OK Einstein.

Doesn't it bother you at all? That someone has taken the blame for your crimes and has died saving your sorry scraggy worthless arse?

Not at all. I didn't ask Him to. He volunteered.

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11.30.2020 07:34AM

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@ethang5

Doesn't it bother you at all? That someone has taken the blame for your crimes and has died saving your sorry scraggy worthless arse?
Not at all.

I didn't ask Him to.

And that is my point. I didn't either and I wouldn't have been so spineless & cowardly as you appear to be to accept this grievous and deadly offer had I been given a choice, my continence simply wouldn't allow it.

He volunteered.

That isn't entirely true, is it. He was sent here. Unless you can show me where the scriptures say he wasn't and came of his own free will?

talking of which :

Stephen wrote: By all accounts, and after all the claims made by Christians of humans having “free will” someone did take it upon themselves and committed suicide on my behalf and I didn’t have a say in the matter.#1
ethang5, wrote: The other person has free will too, and did not need your "say" to make his own choices.

Well that is only your own thoughtless, selfish, cowardly and spinless opinion, that doesn't hold one single ounce of truth . What is mine is mine. Unless of course, you are saying my sins were not mine to begin with?

Ok, so what exactly is your question?

How many times? It is there to read and answer for yourself . It hasn't gone anywhere, #1

And you keep avoiding it?

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11.30.2020 11:49AM

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@Stephen

Doesn't it bother you at all? That someone has taken the blame for your crimes and has died saving your sorry scraggy worthless arse?

Not at all. I didn't ask Him to.

And that is my point. I didn't either and I wouldn't have been so spineless & cowardly as you appear to be to accept this grievous and deadly offer had I been given a choice, my continence simply wouldn't allow it.

Jesus made no offer to me. You can't disallow something that happened 2,000 years before you were born. But I would have been a blazing idiot to have rejected someone paying my bail when I couldn't pay it AND I was guilty as hell of the crime.

He volunteered.

That isn't entirely true, is it. He was sent here. Unless you can show me where the scriptures say he wasn't and came of his own free will?

You really need to read your bible.

talking of which :

Stephen wrote: By all accounts, and after all the claims made by Christians of humans having “free will” someone did take it upon themselves and committed suicide on my behalf and I didn’t have a say in the matter.#1

ethang5, wrote: The other person has free will too, and did not need your "say" to make his own choices.

Well that is only your own thoughtless, selfish, cowardly and spinless opinion, that doesn't hold one single ounce of truth.

You think its untrue that other people have free will and do not need your "say" to make their own choices?

What is mine is mine. Unless of course, you are saying my sins were not mine to begin with?

Your sins are yours, and you will die and pay for them if you reject Jesus' payment for you. That of course is your right, but I myself prefer good sense to stupidity.

Ok, so what exactly is your question?

How many times?

Only once. You spamming the question again is not me asking again.

It is there to read and answer for yourself . It hasn't gone anywhere, And you keep avoiding it?

Yeah, avoiding it must be why I asked. Lol.

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#10

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11.30.2020 02:27PM

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11.30.2020 02:27PM

Stephen wrote: By all accounts, and after all the claims made by Christians of humans having “free will” someone did take it upon themselves and committed suicide on my behalf and I didn’t have a say in the matter.#1
ethang5, wrote: The other person has free will too, and did not need your "say" to make his own choices.

Well that is only your own thoughtless, selfish, cowardly and spinless opinion, that doesn't hold one single ounce of truth. What is mine is mine. Unless of course, you are saying my sins were not mine to begin with?

You think its untrue that other people have free will and do not need your "say" to make their own choices?

No I haven't said that. I have said "what is mine is mine". They don't have free will to take what belongs to me.

What is mine is mine. Unless of course, you are saying my sins were not mine to begin with?
Your sins are yours, and you will die and pay for them if you reject Jesus' payment for you.

But however can this be true. My sins , according to your own scriptures have been washed away AND paid for with a horrendous torturous and agonising death of a blood sacrifice THAT NO ONE EVEN ASKED FOR.!!!!!!! I don't know if I should laugh at the sheer stupidity of it all or pity him because he may have been mentally ill.

You will die and pay for them if you reject Jesus' payment for you.

Where in the scriptures does it say that?

Doesn't it bother you at all? That someone has taken the blame for your crimes and has died saving your sorry scraggy worthless arse?
Not at all. I didn't ask Him to.

And that is my point. I didn't either and I wouldn't have been so spineless & cowardly as you appear to be to accept this grievous and deadly offer had I been given a choice, my continence simply wouldn't allow it.

You will die and pay for them if you reject Jesus' payment for you.

Well that`s the point of this thread isn't it, princess. I want to, and am prepared to, take responsibly for my own crimes. But he's already done it and he's dead.

And by all accounts my freedom of choice was taken from me before I had the chance to even object. You are silly and thoughtless sometime aren't you.

Here is the original question and you have avoided it four times now. Take it on or please leave the thread.

Who does the bible say is responsible for our crimes/sins?#1

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#11

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12.01.2020 07:30AM

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@Tradesecret

The bible clearly talks of God completing what he begun[ ...................................] Yet it also clearly talks of humans being responsible for their own sin and needing to be saved from it. #33 Tradesecret

And where about is it that the bible " clearly talks of humans being responsible for their own sin"?

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Tradesecret

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Tradesecret

12.01.2020 08:58PM

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@Stephen

That is correct Stephen, in relation to your opening poser. No one who is a sinner would ask Jesus to die for them. And the question is why? Human nature. Total depravity. Dead in sin. Slave to sin.

C. S Lewis once gave an interesting example of human nature. A man walks out of a bank after robbing it. He has a bag of money in one hand and a gun in the other. He looks across the street and sees a police officer. What ought he do? What would we be the right thing to do? Put his gun down and the bag of money - get down on his knees and give himself up. That is what he should do - that would be the right thing to do. But what will he do? He will do what his human nature will tell him to do. Either shoot the police officer or run for his life.

A sinner confronted with the reality of a holy God does the same thing. What ought he do? Fall on his knees and ask for forgiveness. What does he do? "All day I have held out my hand to you, and not one - came to me." They join forum sites and try and prove God does not exist.

Sinners - would never ask Jesus to die for them. God however does not seek for people's permission to do anything. He is God. And to suggest that he needs your permission is demonstration only that the god you choose not to believe in is not the God of the Bible.

Oh by the way - I never read anything past the opening poser.

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12.02.2020 07:43AM

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@Tradesecret

That is correct Stephen, in relation to your opening poser. No one who is a sinner would ask Jesus to die for them.

I don't believe I asked that. There are only two questions in my op.

And the question is why?

No the questions were :

(1)But who does the bible say is responsible for our crimes/sins?

(2) In relation to Genesis4: 9 Is this to say that I am not responsible for anyone but myself, my actions and my own behaviour?

I never read anything past the opening poser.

And I don't believe that for a second although you did entirely miss the questions in my OP............

and ignored this one raised entirely by a claim that you yourself have made?>

The bible clearly talks of God completing what he begun[ ...................................] Yet it also clearly talks of humans being responsible for their own sin and needing to be saved from it. #33 Tradesecret

And where about is it that the bible " clearly talks of humans being responsible for their own sin"?

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12.02.2020 09:15AM

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@Stephen

I didn't ask anyone to die for my crimes or sins or misdemeanours.

You didnt ask anyone for you to be borned but you was and you should be happy that your here and that the true god will look after you and all you have to do is thank him.

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12.02.2020 11:16AM

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12.02.2020 11:16AM

There are a few things I'm noticing here. The first is that this is about the notion of vicarious atonement -- if a man is responsible for his own actions and pays for his own sins (as some text indicates) then how can anyone, man or deity, replace that man and create atonement? Second is whether that being can effect that atonement when the individual does not subscribe to that being's authority, existence or power. Can a person be "cleansed" when he doesn't want to be, think he has to be, or through an agency which he thinks is wrong in doing so? And finally, if that atonement can somehow be performed, is there any loyalty or obligation that anyone would feel to that power, and should someone effectively be guilted into that feeling because some outside power chose on its own to swoop in an so the unbidden action.

As to the question of "you didn't ask to be born" the talmud records that the sages had a long argument about whether it is better or worse for man to have been born. They conclude "worse, but since man is here, he should make the best of it." So saying "thank you" for a condition admitted to be "worse" doesn't necessarily follow.

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@Stephen

You think its untrue that other people have free will and do not need your "say" to make their own choices?

No I haven't said that. I have said "what is mine is mine". They don't have free will to take what belongs to me.

Nothing was taken from you.

What is mine is mine. Unless of course, you are saying my sins were not mine to begin with?

Your sins are yours, and you will die and pay for them if you reject Jesus' payment for you.

But however can this be true. My sins , according to your own scriptures have been washed away AND paid for with a horrendous torturous and agonising death of a blood sacrifice THAT NO ONE EVEN ASKED FOR.!!!!!!!

That isn't what scripture says. Your sins have not been washed away AND paid for. You still have them.

I don't know if I should laugh at the sheer stupidity of it all or pity him because he may have been mentally ill.

You're here thinking someone has washed away your sins and you think someone else is pitiful?

You will die and pay for them if you reject Jesus' payment for you.

Where in the scriptures does it say that?

If you don't accept scripture what does it matter? Your sins have not been taken away. They still are yours.

Doesn't it bother you at all? That someone has taken the blame for your crimes and has died saving your sorry scraggy worthless arse?

Not at all. I didn't ask Him to.

And that is my point. I didn't either and I wouldn't have been so spineless & cowardly as you appear to be to accept this grievous and deadly offer had I been given a choice, my continence simply wouldn't allow it.

So, don't accept it now and die with your sin. Jesus' payment is not automatic. You must accept it, otherwise, your sins remain yours.

You will die and pay for them if you reject Jesus' payment for you.

Well that`s the point of this thread isn't it, princess. I want to, and am prepared to, take responsibly for my own crimes. But he's already done it and he's dead.

You still have your sin, so be happy. And Jesus isn't dead.

And by all accounts my freedom of choice was taken from me before I had the chance to even object. You are silly and thoughtless sometime aren't you.

Perhaps, but I have reading comprehension.

Here is the original question and you have avoided it four times now. Take it on or please leave the thread.

Who does the bible say is responsible for our crimes/sins?#1

Each person is responsible for their own sin.

Now you can post again saying I didn't answer you. Lol.

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@rosends

There are a few things I'm noticing here. The first is that this is about the notion of vicarious atonement -- if a man is responsible for his own actions and pays for his own sins (as some text indicates) then how can anyone, man or deity, replace that man and create atonement?

Vicarious atonement is not a biblical doctrine.

Second is whether that being can effect that atonement when the individual does not subscribe to that being's authority, existence or power.

The Bible says one must accept the atonement. But God's authority, existence, and power does not stem from the agreement of His creation. Everything is subject to Him whether it agrees or not.

Can a person be "cleansed" when he doesn't want to be, think he has to be, or through an agency which he thinks is wrong in doing so?

Nope. But then the bible does not say he can.

...should someone effectively be guilted into that feeling...

Our feelings do not fool God. No one can be tricked, shamed, guilted, scared, or forced into salvation. Salvation is an action done by God on the person, it is not someone anyone does.

So saying "thank you" for a condition admitted to be "worse" doesn't necessarily follow.

Jewish sages do not speak for everyone. I don't think being born was worse.

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12.02.2020 02:23PM

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@ethang5

The Bible says one must accept the atonement.

Where?

#19

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https://www.fathommag.com/stories/why-accept-christ-to-make-salvation-count

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@rosends

The primary underpinning for “accepting Christ” comes from Romans 10:9, which says, “If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” The former follows the latter—a true belief leads to confession.

It’s important to keep in mind that salvation encompasses what God has done for us, not what we can do for Him. God has taken the initiative in His plan of redemption, reaching out to us through Christ. Hence, the answer regarding the question of salvation as given by Paul and Silas is, “Believe in the Lord Jesus …” (Acts 16:31 NIV). The Greek word translated “believe” in the passage is pisteuo, meaning “to believe, put one’s faith in, trust, with an implication that actions based on that trust may follow.”[2] Belief, then, encompasses more than just knowing about Jesus. One must also act on this knowledge, combining faith and trust and acting on it.

Salvation also entails repentance – a sincere willingness to radically change our behavior (see, for instance Matthew 3:2; 4:17; Mark 6:12; Luke 13:3-5; Acts 2:38). There is a certain degree of humility that is also required on our part in order to submit to Christ and receive salvation

https://www.focusonthefamily.com/faith/what-must-i-do-to-be-saved/

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12.02.2020 03:37PM

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@ethang5

You wrote, earlier, "Jewish sages do not speak for everyone. I don't think being born was worse."

The books of the Christian gospels don't speak for everyone. I don't think one has to "accept atonement."

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12.02.2020 04:00PM

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@rosends

I don't think one has to "accept atonement."

I know. But that is odd because you said earlier,...

...how can anyone, man or deity, replace that man and create atonement? Second is whether that being can effect that atonement when the individual does not subscribe to that being's authority, existence or power.

Perhaps you don't believe in atonement at all, or maybe your definition of the word differs from Christianity. But I am getting a whiff of contradiction.

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12.02.2020 04:24PM

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@ethang5

What you quote is a question I see as part of this discussion, not reflecting what I might or might not subscribe to. My initial statement about what I don't think is a reflection of my rejecting your source material, as you do not accept mine.

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@ethang5

I have said "what is mine is mine". They don't have free will to take what belongs to me.
Nothing was taken from you.

The freedom to bare my own responsibilities was taken from me. I was never asked AND YOU tell me "Jesus didn't need my permission".

So what are you even arguing about if you are now saying "nothing was taken from me"? And are you now saying that Jesus didn't sacrifice himself and didn't die for our sins or to take away the sins of the world ? And that Peter & Romans & Mark & Hebrews & others are all wrong and simply telling lies? Because if that is the case then I am in agreement with you.

What is mine is mine. Unless of course, you are saying my sins were not mine to begin with?
Your sins are and you will die and pay for them if you reject Jesus' payment for you.

Yes you have said that twice now and offered not a single piece of biblical evidence for your claim..... AGAIN!!! Yes I know my responsibilities are mine you hence the sole reason for this thread. And you keep telling me that "heroes do not need to be asked to sacrifice themselves here #3 ethang5 . When I asked you does it even bother you that someone took responsibility and DIED! for your crimes you flippantly said - "Not at all. I didn't ask Him to. He volunteered". #7 So if we still have ours sins what did Jesus die for?

Jesus either died for our sins or he didn't which is it?

But however can this be true. My sins , according to your own scriptures have been washed away AND paid for with a horrendous torturous and agonising death of a blood sacrifice THAT NO ONE EVEN ASKED FOR.!!!!!!!
Your sins have not been washed away AND paid for. You still have them.

Then why are you even arguing that he didn't need my permission to take responsibility for my sins and die for them ?

And are you denying too that Jesus didn't pay for our sins with his blood sacrifice and as Christians and the scriptures are always at pains to tell us?

You will die and pay for them if you reject Jesus' payment for you.

Three times now. And no biblical evidence to support that claim. You have said "nothing was taken from me" and again you are back to talking about "Jesus' payment for me"

WHAT PAYMENT AND WHAT FOR?

Where in the scriptures does it say that?
If you don't accept scripture what does it matter?

You don't know do you. You're just another lying Christian that is desperate to win a argument through sheer bloody mindlessness now that you have well and truly painted yourself into a corner with your own contradictions and backpedaling.

One minute Jesus is a "selfless hero" that doesn't need my permission to take my responsibilities away from me , and the next your telling me " nothing was taken away from me". THEN WHAT THE FK ARE YOU ARGUING ABOUT!!!!!????

Doesn't it bother you at all? That someone has taken the blame for your crimes and has died saving your sorry scraggy worthless arse?
Not at all. I didn't ask Him to.

And that is my point. I didn't either and I wouldn't have been so spineless & cowardly as you appear to be to accept this grievous and deadly offer had I been given a choice, my continence simply wouldn't allow it. Obviously yours does.

Well that`s the point of this thread isn't it, princess. I want to, and am prepared to, take responsibly for my own crimes. But he's already done it and he's dead.
You still have your sin,

Well not according to you above or the scriptures. As I have said, and you ignored - my sins were washed away AND a blood sacrifice paid for by Jesus and his "heroic selflessness" sacrifice. You really are in a right muddle now aren't you.

Did Jesus die for my sins or not.? Have Christians been lying for over 2000 years as to why god sent his "ONLY son" to earth?

And by all accounts my freedom of choice was taken from me before I had the chance to even object. You are silly and thoughtless sometime aren't you.
Perhaps, but I have reading comprehension.

I don't think so. You have done a complete 180 ° contradicting and refuting all of your own earlier statements on this thread.

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@rosends

You asked me "where". A assumed you meant, " Where in the bible?" So I gave you the verses. I didn't need your acceptance, nor was I seeking it. I was being polite.

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@ethang5

I was being as polite as you were when you pointed out that Jewish sages don't speak for everyone. What you quoted is from something I don't see as "the bible."

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@rosends

How you choose to see it is immaterial. You asked where. I showed you. If you didn't know I was referring to the bible, or what the word "bible" means to me, then perhaps you aren't qualified for this conversation.

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@ethang5

If you didn't know to cite texts relevant to me as the one asking the question, then maybe you shouldn't be making unqualified claims or expecting everyone in the world to abide by your personal definitions.

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@Stephen

I have said "what is mine is mine". They don't have free will to take what belongs to me.

Nothing was taken from you.

The freedom to bare my own responsibilities was taken from me.

You do bare your own responsibilities. Nothing was taken from you. Why is that difficult for you to understand?

I was never asked AND YOU tell me "Jesus didn't need my permission".

He didn't. So why would He ask you?

So what are you even arguing about if you are now saying "nothing was taken from me"?

Lol! Your claim was that your sins and responsibilities were taken from you. I've been trying to get you to understand that nothing has been taken from you.

And are you now saying that Jesus didn't sacrifice himself and didn't die for our sins or to take away the sins of the world ?

No. I'm saying your sins have not been taken or " aid for" by Jesus. Why in the world would you think your sins were taken away by Jesus??

And that Peter & Romans & Mark & Hebrews & others are all wrong and simply telling lies? Because if that is the case then I am in agreement with you.

Peter & Romans & Mark & Hebrews & others are not referring to you.

What is mine is mine. Unless of course, you are saying my sins were not mine to begin with?

Your sins are and you will die and pay for them if you reject Jesus' payment for you.

Yes you have said that twice now and offered not a single piece of biblical evidence for your claim..... AGAIN!!!

I'm not here to teach you bible doctrine. This is Sunday school stuff. If you don't know it, you aren't equipped for this debate.

Yes I know my responsibilities are mine you hence the sole reason for this thread.

Then your thread is pointless.

And you keep telling me that "heroes do not need to be asked to sacrifice themselves.

Excuse me Sir? Could step in front of that bullet and sacrifice yourself for me? Thank you ever so kindly. (Hee,hee!!)

When I asked you does it even bother you that someone took responsibility and DIED! for your crimes you flippantly said - "Not at all. I didn't ask Him to. He volunteered".

All true, except for you thinking I was being flippant.

So if we still have ours sins what did Jesus die for?

I don't have MY sins anymore. YOU still have your sins. Who is this "WE"?

Jesus either died for our sins or he didn't which is it?

Read your bible. I'm not here to school you. Especially not when you have the arrogant attitude of someone who thinks he knows.

But however can this be true. My sins , according to your own scriptures have been washed away AND paid for with a horrendous torturous and agonising death of a blood sacrifice THAT NO ONE EVEN ASKED FOR.!!!!!!!

Your sins have not been washed away AND paid for. You still have them.

Then why are you even arguing that he didn't need my permission to take responsibility for my sins and die for them ?

He didn't. His not needing your permission to die does not mean your sins have been forgiven.

And are you denying too that Jesus didn't pay for our sins with his blood sacrifice and as Christians and the scriptures are always at pains to tell us?

You aren't a Christian.

You will die and pay for them if you reject Jesus' payment for you.

Three times now.

You will die only once.

And no biblical evidence to support that claim. You have said "nothing was taken from me" and again you are back to talking about "Jesus' payment for me" WHAT PAYMENT AND WHAT FOR?

I never said Jesus made any payment for you. Nothing has been taken from you and I haven't the foggiest idea why you think something has.

Where in the scriptures does it say that?

If you don't accept scripture what does it matter?

You don't know do you.

Again. Does it matter to you?

You're just another lying Christian that is desperate to win a argument through sheer bloody mindlessness now that you have well and truly painted yourself into a corner with your own contradictions and backpedaling.

Lol. Thanks for confirming that my responses don't matter to you.

One minute Jesus is a "selfless hero" that doesn't need my permission to take my responsibilities away from me,...

Which doesn't mean He DID take your responsibilities away from you.

...and the next your telling me "nothing was taken away from me". THEN WHAT THE FK ARE YOU ARGUING ABOUT!!!!!????

I'm not yet arguing, I'm listening to you foam. Calm down and read slowly.

Well that`s the point of this thread isn't it, princess. I want to, and am prepared to, take responsibly for my own crimes. But he's already done it and he's dead.

You still have your sin,

Well not according to you above or the scriptures.

Not the scriptures in the Bible.

As I have said, and you ignored - my sins were washed away AND a blood sacrifice paid for by Jesus and his "heroic selflessness" sacrifice.

Read my lips. YOUR sins have NOT been washed away AND a blood sacrifice has NOT been paid for YOU by Jesus and his "heroic selflessness" sacrifice. Now, if you think your sins have been washed away, please show us why you think such a ludacrous thing.

Did Jesus die for my sins or not? Have Christians been lying for over 2000 years as to why god sent his "ONLY son" to earth?

Have you even ever spoken to Jesus?

And by all accounts my freedom of choice was taken from me before I had the chance to even object. You are silly and thoughtless sometime aren't you.

It's funny how certain your are given your poor reading comprehension.

You have done a complete 180 ° contradicting and refuting all of your own earlier statements on this thread.

OK Stevie.

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@rosends

If you didn't know to cite texts relevant to me as the one asking the question,...

You asked me where something was. I told you. How "relevant" you find it is immaterial. My answer was restricted to the truth.

...then maybe you shouldn't be making unqualified claims or expecting everyone in the world to abide by your personal definitions.

I had no expectations. I gave you no definitions. You said in post #17, "So saying "thank you" for a condition admitted to be "worse" doesn't necessarily follow." I told you Jewish sages had no impact on what non-jews said or felt about being born.

If you took that as an insult, you shouldn't have. It wasn't an insult and was not intended to insult. As much as it might thrill you, there aren't "Jew haters" lurking under every rock.

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