God and the BoP

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  • Juice
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    Religious people bear the BoP. Provide an argument against this statement. 


  • MisterChris
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    --> @Juice
    That statement doesn't need to be refuted, because it's true... and I say this as someone who leans theist in their beliefs.

    When someone says something exists and another person says "I see no proof of it existing," if the contested thing existing is not a truism, then the BoP naturally falls on the person making the claim. That doesn't mean there isn't a good case for God existing, though. Just as even though the BoP falls on those claiming abortion is a-ok, you can make a decent case for why it might be.
  • zedvictor4
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    --> @Juice @MisterChris
    Theists will always try and shift the B.O.P. because they have no actual proof of their claim.

    So you're right...Theists make the claim....It's their B.O.P.

    Atheists cannot disprove something that theists cannot prove.

    And if theists could actually prove the existence of their specific GOD....Then rational thinkers would cease to be atheists.
  • Intelligence_06
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    Theists bear the bop of course. Even if the atheists also do it still doesn’t make theists lack of it.
  • Utanity
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    --> @Juice
    Religious people bear the BoP. Provide an argument against this statement. 

    It is you who must be making the argument because you started the argument so then you must have to be proving the argument what you made because religious people don't know why you have to argue anyway so you really dont no what your argument is anyway.
  • Stephen
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    --> @MisterChris

    That statement doesn't need to be refuted, because it's true

    It is.

    It is  a universally accepted law that the Burden of Proof lies with he or she that brings the claim.

     But there really are pig ignorant theist  that will create a whole new argument around this universal accepted fact of law and all in a fruitless attempt not to prove or deny something, but simply to save face or  in a vain to be right.

     They will turn to the law of the Burden of Proof and where it lays when its suites them to do so, and so they should.  But will in the very next breath,  deny categorically that the same law applies when it come to the existence of God and controversial statements made in the biblical scriptures or made by themselves. There are a very recent examples of this on this religion forum. Here's just one https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/5083-the-god-topic where the author opening post includes this incredible retarded nonsense:   

    " What would be helpful in the discussion is this. For an atheist to produce any evidence that GOD does not exist".  #1


    I have to wonder at times - do they realise how ridiculous and retarded they come across when they stoop to this level of argument. It makes  any reasonable argument they feel they  have worthless and pointless. 
     
    She or He that denies  the universally accepted law of where the Burden Of Proof Lays automatically loses any argument. 
  • Lit
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    --> @Juice
    Religious people bear the BoP. Provide an argument against this statement.
    The burden of proof does not rest with man when it comes to God's existence or nonexistence. 
  • Tradesecret
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    --> @Juice
    Religious people bear the BoP. Provide an argument against this statement. 
    I don't agree at least when it comes to the question of the existence of God. Perhaps it might apply to other areas of religion. Yet that is quite distinct. 

    There is a principle relating to B.of P.  And that is that the person making the positive assertion ought to prove it. 

    Yet there are also exceptions to the rule. Burden of Proof - Courting The Law

    Generally, there are two situations in which the burden of proof takes exception to the aforementioned general rule:

    • where a disputable presumption of law exists or a “prima facie case” been proved in favour of one party; or
    • where the subject matter of a party’s allegations is in the knowledge of the opposing party.

    Similarly, there are other exceptions that relate to the burden of proof - such as relating to the elements necessary for the defense of insanity. In that particular situation - the burden shifts from the police who make the initial assertion that the defendant committed a crime - to the defendant to prove he or she is not sane. 

    In other situations the burden of proof shifts in relation to default or traditional assertions - where such a default position is considered an axiom.  If the assertion is axiomatic situation - then the burden of proof shifts from the positive assertion to those who attempt to refute it. 

    An example is reason. Reason or logic is considered an axiom - but the person who asserts that such is their axiom does not need to demonstrate that such axiom is true.  IT is assumed as such. It is impossible to prove logic is true without using logic. Logic therefore becomes a circular argument.   If someone uses something other than logic to prove logic is true, then that person by definition demonstrates that logic is not axiomatic.  

    Similarly in relation to the existence of God. It is an axiom. Only God can prove the existence of God. If something other than God attempts to prove the existence of God, then God is not axiomatic.  
  • zedvictor4
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    --> @Tradesecret
    If you cannot prove that a specific GOD exists...Then I have nothing to prove

    If you can prove that a specific GOD exists....Then I have nothing to prove.

    It's the LAW of common sense.



    Your above rhetoric, designed to confuse, nonetheless just goes around the houses and back to the start....If you really want to move your argument forwards, then the only way, will be to unequivocally prove that a specific GOD exists.....BOP.
  • Tradesecret
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    --> @zedvictor4
    If you cannot prove that a specific GOD exists...Then I have nothing to prove

    If you can prove that a specific GOD exists....Then I have nothing to prove.

    It's the LAW of common sense.



    Your above rhetoric, designed to confuse, nonetheless just goes around the houses and back to the start....If you really want to move your argument forwards, then the only way, will be to unequivocally prove that a specific GOD exists.....BOP.
    My above rhetoric is not designed to confuse.  It is for clarification. It simply points out that the B of P is a rule which has exceptions.  Why is it that the atheist feels threatened by such evidence that the B of P is one which has exceptions? 
  • Stephen
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    --> @zedvictor4



    I wrote above:

     "They [theists] will turn to the law of the Burden of Proof and where it lays when its suites them to do so, and so they should.  But will in the very next breath,  deny categorically that the same law applies when it come to the existence of God and controversial statements made in the biblical scriptures or made by themselves".#6

    So I suppose it only correct that I have to prove my claim and produce an example of the accusation I made at  post #6

    In a response to a reasonable  question about scripture that  I  had asked :



    Stephen wrote: "52  the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints  who had fallen asleep were raised; 53 and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many.

     This^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ is the description of what is said to have happened at the exact time Jesus is said to have died, isn't it? A yes or no will do.
    Tradesecret;  I don't answer yes or no. I am not a witness to be cross-examined or to be led by a lawyer. #5

    I counsel all of my clients never to answer yes or no. Why would I not take my own advice? Life is more complex than black and white - yes and no answers.#15


    I love how people talk about things like facts when they don't have any way to ACTUALLY prove it.  None of this would pass a court room test. #11

    Notice above that  all those responses are court of law setting related.  Where we have words such as " advise & council"   "clients"  "cross examined" & "court room".


    After another attempt at getting an answer to the same question  I received this reply  (from a qualified lawyer no less) with more specific detail concerning where the Burden of Proof in law actually lays with: 

     " I am a Lawyer [........] I always counsel my clients that "no comment" is the only wise thing to do when being questioned by the police. I don't care how you read that - no comment is the right thing to do.  When we are in  a contested hearing, I, in the first instance, will counsel my client not to get into the stand to be cross examined. It is the role of the prosecutor to prove their case. It is not mine to prove we are innocent" .[  #20

    And I totally agree with that comment. I accept it because it is the  accepted law particularly in the western civilizations..


    Read then the change of attitude to this  accepted law when  it then we come to the existence of god>

    " What would be helpful in the discussion is this. For an atheist to produce any evidence that GOD does not exist".  #1

    And 

    My attitude to B of P is not actually the person who asserts must do so.  I think that is the way some people understand it.
     In other words, atheists are unable to prove God does not exist. Similarly,theists cannot prove God exists. We all know that as well.  It is a political point of view. 
    it would be the atheist who has the B. o P.

    Keeping in mind that I asked  someone  to simply confirm if or not that a verse in question was from the scripture and correct ; we see how  willing, fast and keen to bring  the court setting  and its law into a discussion forum and using the universally accept law when it suites them to defend their right and reasons for not answering a perfectly reasonable question.

    But  when the questions are about the existence of  god or  question about the scriptures that they don't like , then the  universally laws of B of P  fly clean out of the window and dismissed as if they never existed in the first place.

     







  • Deb-8-a-bull
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    I use to think you have to lie to yourself approx five times to have the ability to belive in god. 
    I'm thinking it's like twenty now. 

  • Utanity
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    --> @Deb-8-a-bull
    I use to think you have to lie to yourself approx five times to have the ability to belive in god. 
    I'm thinking it's like twenty now. 

    If your lying to yourself then your lying to everybody and I believe in god and I dont lie to everybody so that means that god is true but I sometimes lie to my boss though but I do that because he wants me to chop the chickens heads to high and sometimes when you do that they run away and you have to going into the bush to be finding them.
  • zedvictor4
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    --> @Tradesecret
    Nope. It's just jargon and doesn't clarify anything.

    I clarified the situation in the bits of my previous post that you overlooked.

    Atheists do not make claims, and so have nothing to prove.

    Theists claim that specific GODS exist.

    Atheists do not claim that GODS do not exist.....All that atheists require is for you to unequivocally substantiate your claim.....And then we can all be true believers together.

    It's not a Chicken and Egg scenario.


  • Athias
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    --> @Intelligence_06 @Juice @MisterChris @Tradesecret @zedvictor4

    Religious people bear the BoP. Provide an argument against this statement. 
    The burden of proof rests with whoever affirms. So, if one were to affirm the existence of God (i.e. "God does exist") then the one who affirmed the aforementioned would bear the onus to substantiate said affirmation. If one were to affirm the nonexistence of God (i.e. "God does not exist") then the one who affirmed the aforementioned would also bear the onus to substantiate said affirmation.

    The notion that Atheists merely bear no burden of proof because of the prevailing notion "we don't have to prove a negative" is nonsense.

  • Lit
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    --> @Athias
    Religious people bear the BoP. Provide an argument against this statement. 
    The burden of proof rests with whoever affirms. So, if one were to affirm the existence of God (i.e. "God does exist") then the one who affirmed the aforementioned would bear the onus to substantiate said affirmation. If one were to affirm the nonexistence of God (i.e. "God does not exist") then the one who affirmed the aforementioned would also bear the onus to substantiate said affirmation.

    The notion that Atheists merely bear no burden of proof because of the prevailing notion "we don't have to prove a negative" is nonsense.
    When it comes to the existence of God, man doesn't have a place to affirm or disaffirm. The reason is that saying God exists or does not exist isn't an independent claim, but a responsive one.
  • Athias
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    --> @zedvictor4
    Theists will always try and shift the B.O.P. because they have no actual proof of their claim.

    So you're right...Theists make the claim....It's their B.O.P.

    Atheists cannot disprove something that theists cannot prove.
    Then don't argue from ignorance and use the failure to provide information to the effect of God's existence as information for its inverse argument. That is logically inconsistent.


    And if theists could actually prove the existence of their specific GOD....Then rational thinkers would cease to be atheists.
    Is it "rational" to employ a No True Scotsman fallacy?
  • Athias
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    --> @Lit
    When it comes to the existence of God, man doesn't have a place to affirm or disaffirm. The reason is that saying God exists or does not exist isn't an independent claim, but a responsive one.
    Man does have a place to affirm or negate. And independent claims, which I presume you mean to mirror "objective" claims are irrational. So is the affirmation of nonexistence.
  • Athias
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    --> @zedvictor4
    Atheists do not make claims, and so have nothing to prove.
    Yes you do. I wouldn't presume to say all of you, but some (if most) of you do.

    Theists claim that specific GODS exist.
    (Some) Atheists claim that specific GODS DO NOT exist.

    Atheists do not claim that GODS do not exist....
    That is a lie.

    .All that atheists require is for you to unequivocally substantiate your claim.....
    This is also a lie. I cannot speak for all atheists. But I can speak to my experience broaching this subject with you. You don't require unequivocal substantiation. You require a presentation of a material nature, and a reproduction of the supernatural feats mentioned in the Bible.

    And then we can all be true believers together.
    The fact that your contention centers on "belief" makes methinks that thou doth protest too much.

  • Lit
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    --> @Athias
    When it comes to the existence of God, man doesn't have a place to affirm or disaffirm. The reason is that saying God exists or does not exist isn't an independent claim, but a responsive one.
    Man does have a place to affirm or negate. And independent claims, which I presume you mean to mirror "objective" claims are irrational. So is the affirmation of nonexistence.
    Yes, you're right. I tripped up. Put prove and disprove in place of affirm and disaffirm in my post, because it being a responsive act would necessitate these two actions.

    An independent claim would be an invention by man and showing it to those who don't know it exists. This is independent and separate from man. A person doesn't independently say God exists because it is based off a stirring in the conscience. Similarly, a person cannot deem themselves to say God doesn't exist unless there are reasons which touch the conscience to reject. This is responsive.

    For example, saying the apparent order of the universe credits the existence of God is based off a stirring in the human conscience because we perceive order.
  • EtrnlVw
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    --> @zedvictor4
    Atheists do not make claims, and so have nothing to prove.

    Baloney, they make claims all the time.... being an atheist consequently means your refusal to accept that God or gods exist. Of course, you don't have to "prove" that but here in a forum tailored for religious and Theistic debate you have to provide reason you don't accept it. So why don't you accept the existence of God? there must be some sort of reasoning no?

    Theists claim that specific GODS exist.

    Theists believe in the existence of God and have reasons for doing so. Atheists reject (disbelieve) the existence of God and have reasons for doing so, don't be silly. 

    Atheists do not claim that GODS do not exist.....

    They do all the time, where have you been? not only that but claim and think they can show it as well. 

    All that atheists require is for you to unequivocally substantiate your claim.....And then we can all be true believers together.

    Lol cute, atheism is to disbelieve in the existence of God or gods. To disbelieve something, you must show what it is that has convinced you of disbelieving. If you refuse to accept the existence of God, or reject Theistic claims you must have reason for doing so, to be an atheist one must have a counter position. If you have a stance that God does not exist, you have to provide good reason for believing that. 
    Theists could sit back and say nothing, and wait for atheists to show and give reasons for why they insist God does not exist. Or why they disbelieve. I love how atheists pretend that both "disbelieve", and "in the existence of God or gods" is not in the definition of an atheist lol. Even if you claim you lack a belief, you still lack a belief in the existence of God, why?
    Even if you were to take the easy route and claim there is no good evidence to accept it, you would still have to account for all the evidence that points to it, that indicates the human experience goes well beyond an atheists worldview. Having no good evidence to accept it, must mean you have good evidence to reject it. 

    It's not a Chicken and Egg scenario.

    Yes is it actually, I say yes you say no. But there is a middle ground between theism and a-theism. Atheism is not some default position and don't pretend that it is. It is a term used in association that directly opposes theism. Otherwise the term has no meaning. Atheism is not a lack of beliefs, it specifically refers to Gods existence. So if you lack belief in Gods existence you must have a reason why. Once you have a reason why, you have a position. 
    But we know you could say you are agnostic concerning the proposition. 


  • MisterChris
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    --> @Athias
    That's a generally accurate standard, but there is a level of nuance I think from topic to topic that it doesn't account for. For example, topics related to positive good fit your standard. If we argue that there is a positive good to installing a 5G network in the United States, then the negative does not bear BoP and can simply say "I see no evidence of the affirmative" if we do not substantiate the claim with evidence that proves a positive good without reasonable doubt. Likewise, If we argue that there is a negative effect of 5G, then the negative could say "I see no evidence of the affirmative" and win if we do not substantiate our claim with evidence that proves a negative effect without reasonable doubt. 

    But with topics related to the existence or non-existence of something, I feel the BoP naturally lies on the person making the claim that the thing exists to prove beyond reasonable doubt it does or doesn't exist. This doesn't mean that what you say here isn't true:
    "If one were to affirm the nonexistence of God (i.e. "God does not exist") then the one who affirmed the aforementioned would also bear the onus to substantiate said affirmation." 
    This is true. But "substantiating an affirmation" does not translate to having the BoP of proving that God doesn't exist beyond a reasonable doubt.  "Substantiating the affirmation" could just as easily be the athiest arguing they only have to prove that there is no substantial evidence for God's existence because a belief in something with no evidence is a fallacy in of itself. 




  • Deb-8-a-bull
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    --> @EtrnlVw
    Why don't you believe in big foot ? 

    How did ya figure out that you don't believe in big foots.?

  • EtrnlVw
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    --> @MisterChris
    But with topics related to the existence or non-existence of something, I feel the BoP naturally lies on the person making the claim that the thing exists to prove beyond reasonable doubt it does or doesn't exist.

    I don't think anyone is denying that. The point is to show the counter position, not a neutral position. Atheism is not a neutral position, it is directly a counter position to theism. If I say God exists I need to show why I think that, if an atheists say no, God does not exist or probably does not exist they need to show why they believe that. Note you said to "prove it does OR doesn't exist". Both are positions. 

    If you said I still believe Santa Clause exists I would say give me reason why, if I said Santa does not exist I would have to provide a good reason why I have offered a counter position. 

    BOP isn't always about proving something, but offering the reasoning behind a position. If there is a counter position, then there is also a shared BOP. 
  • EtrnlVw
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    --> @Deb-8-a-bull
    Why don't you believe in big foot ? 

    Never said I didn't, there is sufficient reason to consider the amount of testimonials. However, since I have no official experience with Bigfoot (unlike I do with spirituality) I cannot take a position, OR a counter position. 

    How did ya figure out that you don't believe in big foots.?

    Did I make that claim? lol