Can Christians Prove God had a plan for us all?

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  • Stephen
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    Can Christians prove that  god had a plan for every single one of us from day one of ours creation? Is that plan on course? 

     And wherever did the New Testament  authors even of the  get the idea that everything that happens,  every action taken and word spoken are all by gods design and according to his plan? 

    There are some NT verses that claim god has a plan for us all and even fewer that talk of a "plan"  in the Old Testament such as;  "I have planned it, surely I will do it” . Isaiah 46:3-11.

    Was me being born for instance, a part of " gods plan " , if so why do I not know about it by now?  Will I even know about it?
    Was Jesus being sent to earth to suffer and die also part of gods plan?
    Is every act we witness in nature good and bad all part of gods divine plan?
    Was the "plan" centered on individuals and not everyone,   as Jeremiah 29:11 seems to suggest?

    There are plenty of Christians that are forever talking about gods divine plan for us all and our purpose on this earth. But I fail to detect a plan at all in the erratic and unbalanced and at times, confusing world that I live in?
  • aletheakatharos
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    --> @Stephen
    You seem to know quite a bit about Christianity. What is your background with it?
  • Stephen
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    --> @aletheakatharos
    You seem to know quite a bit about Christianity. What is your background with it?

    You are an expert at ignoring the questions and posing your own.  Twice now you have done this on two of my threads .  Posing your own questions in response to my initial questions do not in any way, answer or address the original - my original questions. 

    Are you a Christian?  Your profile suggest that you are. But are you a practicing Christian?  The title of this thread, my thread does have the words " Christian" and proof of  "gods plan", in it.  I ask because this is an ignorant and habitual ploy that many  Christians adopt when they can't or won't answer the simplest of questions concerning their own scriptures, but instead choose conflict and disruption (and posing their own questions) over such simple questions . 

    Did you miss my questions?

    Was me being born for instance, a part of " gods plan " , if so, why do I not know about it by now?  Will I even know about it?
    Was Jesus being sent to earth to suffer and die also part of gods plan?
    Is every act we witness in nature good and bad all part of gods divine plan?
    Was the "plan" centered on individuals and not everyone,   as Jeremiah 29:11 seems to suggest?


  • Tradesecret
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    --> @Stephen
    Can Christians prove that  god had a plan for every single one of us from day one of ours creation? Is that plan on course? 
    Some probably could.  Some probably could not. Those that could prove God had a plan would not ask such a dumb question.  I am not purporting to be one or the other. 


     And wherever did the New Testament  authors even of the  get the idea that everything that happens,  every action taken and word spoken are all by gods design and according to his plan? 
    I suppose the NT writers got it from the OT and while they were under the inspiration of the Spirit. 


    There are some NT verses that claim god has a plan for us all and even fewer that talk of a "plan"  in the Old Testament such as;  "I have planned it, surely I will do it” . Isaiah 46:3-11.
    Goody - well there you have your answer.  And it would be lovely know if you would enlighten the rest of us. Thanks in anticipation. 

    Was me being born for instance, a part of " gods plan " , if so why do I not know about it by now?  Will I even know about it?
    This is a strange question.  Why is that you need to know being born was part of God's plan? And given you are alive, then how could you NOT know it?  

    Was Jesus being sent to earth to suffer and die also part of gods plan?
    I think that one is pretty obvious. Is 53 clearly talks about it, if one assumes that Is 53 is talking about the Messiah suffering as opposed to the nation of Israel. 

    Is every act we witness in nature good and bad all part of gods divine plan?
    Many Christians might say yes.  And many Christians might say no.   What do you say dear Stephen? Oops sorry I forgot this is your topic and you are the one asking questions. My bad.  Gee I wonder if me asking this question was part of God's divine plan?  Nevertheless, it does seem like you are mixing up plan with will. 

    Was the "plan" centered on individuals and not everyone,   as Jeremiah 29:11 seems to suggest?
    Personally I think Jeremiah 29:11 was directed only to the people Jeremiah was addressing - and not a specific application to everyone else. A typical example of where some Christians take a verse out of context and try to apply it to themselves. Bad hermeneutics I would say - despite the fact that it sounds so nice. 

    There are plenty of Christians that are forever talking about gods divine plan for us all and our purpose on this earth. But I fail to detect a plan at all in the erratic and unbalanced and at times, confusing world that I live in?
    I think there is a difference between God's divine plan as such for his creation as opposed to his divine will which is recorded for his people to obey. I don't think people can miss God's plan - ever - but I think people can miss God's will, as they disobey his words.  

    Mostly, however looking to find God's will is a misnomer. It is clear that God in the Bible works by covenant. This means he gives general principles we work within - or boundaries and that within those boundaries we have freedom and choice. Excellent example - in the Garden of Eden. God gave Adam and Eve all the trees in the garden but one to eat from. That was the boundary - the limits. Yet within that boundary - which tree they ate from, how they cooked it and and ate it was up themselves. 



  • Stephen
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    --> @Tradesecret
    Can Christians prove that  god had a plan for every single one of us from day one of ours creation? Is that plan on course? 

    Those that could prove God had a plan would not ask such a dumb question. 
    Well I am one of those that CANNOT prove it, that is why I asked.  what a dumb response.


    I am not purporting to be one or the other. 
    Which?  Dumb if you could or  or not dumb if you cannot?



     And wherever did the New Testament  authors even of the  get the idea that everything that happens,  every action taken and word spoken are all by gods design and according to his plan? 
    I suppose the NT writers got it from the OT and while they were under the inspiration of the Spirit. 

    That's a  fair response if by  "the spirit"  you mean the spirit of god?  Are you saying then the NT authors then believed what they had read in the OT? And do you believe  as they may have done that _  every action taken and word spoken are all by gods design and according to his plan? 


    There are some NT verses that claim god has a plan for us all and even fewer that talk of a "plan"  in the Old Testament such as;  "I have planned it, surely I will do it” . Isaiah 46:3-11.
    Goody - well there you have your answer.

    Well no, I don't. Isaiah 46:3-11. don't really cover it. It doesn't suggest a plan for all of us as individuals  and that all our words and actions are all gods doing and by his design. 


    Was me being born for instance, a part of " gods plan " , if so why do I not know about it by now?  Will I even know about it?
    This is a strange question.  Why is that you need to know being born was part of God's plan? And given you are alive, then how could you NOT know it? 

    So are you saying then ethang5, that just by me being alive  answers, why it is that I don't know why I was born and where I fit into "gods plan". No. It doesn't and it appears that you don't know either.
     

    Was Jesus being sent to earth to suffer and die also part of gods plan?
    I think that one is pretty obvious. Is 53 clearly talks about it, if one assumes that Is 53 is talking about the Messiah suffering as opposed to the nation of Israel. 
    So according to you then,  Isiah 53 is explaining that gods sending of Jesus to suffer and die on a cross was  all part of gods plan? And do you agree with Isaiah 53 that it was all gods plan?


    Is every act we witness in nature good and bad all part of gods divine plan?
     What do you say dear Stephen? Oops sorry I forgot this is your topic and you are the one asking questions.

     Your learning, good boy! So what do you say?  




    Was the "plan" centered on individuals and not everyone,   as Jeremiah 29:11 seems to suggest?
    Personally I think Jeremiah 29:11 was directed only to the people Jeremiah was addressing ................

    But it wasn't it god that did the "declaring". :  For I know the plans I have for you,” declares the Lord, “plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future."  
     You really should bone up on these scriptures Reverend. You do make yourself look entirely stupid at time.



    There are plenty of Christians that are forever talking about gods divine plan for us all and our purpose on this earth. But I fail to detect a plan at all in the erratic and unbalanced and at times, confusing world that I live in?
    I think there is a difference between God's divine plan as such for his creation as opposed to his divine will which is recorded for his people to obey.


    What is it and why do you even suggest a difference if everything is god plan?  Surely gods divine will is part of gods plan.



    I don't think people can miss God's plan - ever -

    I don't mind admitting that I have missed it. What is it and how do you know that IT is part of his plan? 


    Mostly, however looking to find God's will is a misnomer.

    I am not asking about gods will.  I am simply asking about gods plan.





  • Tradesecret
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    --> @Stephen
    Can Christians prove that  god had a plan for every single one of us from day one of ours creation? Is that plan on course? 

    Those that could prove God had a plan would not ask such a dumb question. 
    Well I am one of those that CANNOT prove it, that is why I asked.  what a dumb response.


    I am not purporting to be one or the other. 
    Which?  Dumb if you could or  or not dumb if you cannot?
    Hi Stephen, thanks once again for your condescending response. I never suggested you were dumb. Only that asking if whether or not God's plan is on course or not is a dumb question. If you don't believe in God, then you would not ask that sort of question. And if you did believe in God, you would not ask that question. It is the sort of question that someone asks when they don't believe in God and wrongly assume that believers might actually ask such a question. It smacks of condescension.  It is also what is called strawman.  and it is strawman in the sense that it is attempting to structure an argument that you assume they believe and then you will demonstrate why it is nonsense. Of course that is the essence of strawman arguments.  The reason behind it is less sinister. It is just that you don't actually know what believer's believer and as such you assume the worst and then walk on from there. 


     And wherever did the New Testament  authors even of the  get the idea that everything that happens,  every action taken and word spoken are all by gods design and according to his plan? 
    I suppose the NT writers got it from the OT and while they were under the inspiration of the Spirit. 

    That's a  fair response if by  "the spirit"  you mean the spirit of god?  Are you saying then the NT authors then believed what they had read in the OT? And do you believe  as they may have done that _  every action taken and word spoken are all by gods design and according to his plan? 
    What else would I mean? Of course NT authors believed what they read in the OT. I see another strawman argument formulating in your brain.  You again are not taking into account first and second causes.  God is the author of every first cause.  Yet humanity is totally responsible for every second cause. Hence, every evil action completed by humanity is humanity's responsibility and not God's. I see the disconnect.  You are straining to join the dots. 

    There are some NT verses that claim god has a plan for us all and even fewer that talk of a "plan"  in the Old Testament such as;  "I have planned it, surely I will do it” . Isaiah 46:3-11.
    Goody - well there you have your answer.

    Well no, I don't. Isaiah 46:3-11. don't really cover it. It doesn't suggest a plan for all of us as individuals  and that all our words and actions are all gods doing and by his design. 
    LOL! you do understand sarcasm, don't you? I never said it was the answer - but rather "your answer" if you want to believe it. LOL! 

    Was me being born for instance, a part of " gods plan " , if so why do I not know about it by now?  Will I even know about it?
    This is a strange question.  Why is that you need to know being born was part of God's plan? And given you are alive, then how could you NOT know it? 

    So are you saying then ethang5, that just by me being alive  answers, why it is that I don't know why I was born and where I fit into "gods plan". No. It doesn't and it appears that you don't know either.
     Firstly, I am not Ethang5. Secondly, if you believe God exists, then the question of why is known. If you don't believe in God, then you don't need to know.  If you are looking to know God's plan - in its specifics, then again you are missing the difference between God's hidden will and his known revealed will.  

    Was Jesus being sent to earth to suffer and die also part of gods plan?
    I think that one is pretty obvious. Is 53 clearly talks about it, if one assumes that Is 53 is talking about the Messiah suffering as opposed to the nation of Israel. 
    So according to you then,  Isiah 53 is explaining that gods sending of Jesus to suffer and die on a cross was  all part of gods plan? And do you agree with Isaiah 53 that it was all gods plan?
    I think Is 53 provides evidence that the Messiah was meant to suffer. Yes. 

    Is every act we witness in nature good and bad all part of gods divine plan?
     What do you say dear Stephen? Oops sorry I forgot this is your topic and you are the one asking questions.

     Your learning, good boy! So what do you say?  
    I reckon you know what I say. 



    Was the "plan" centered on individuals and not everyone,   as Jeremiah 29:11 seems to suggest?
    Personally I think Jeremiah 29:11 was directed only to the people Jeremiah was addressing ................

    But it wasn't it god that did the "declaring". :  For I know the plans I have for you,” declares the Lord, “plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future."  
     You really should bone up on these scriptures Reverend. You do make yourself look entirely stupid at time.

    I never said it was not God talking through Jeremiah. Don't be an ass.  The prophet of Jeremiah declaring God's word of promise to the people of Israel at that time - was not a general application for all people for all time. It was a specific promise to a specific people.  just as later in the same book - God makes specific promises and curses to people. They too are not general applications to all people. 

    There are plenty of Christians that are forever talking about gods divine plan for us all and our purpose on this earth. But I fail to detect a plan at all in the erratic and unbalanced and at times, confusing world that I live in?
    I think there is a difference between God's divine plan as such for his creation as opposed to his divine will which is recorded for his people to obey.


    What is it and why do you even suggest a difference if everything is god plan?  Surely gods divine will is part of gods plan.
    There is the hidden plan of God - which at times he gives us glimpses of - for his own purposes.  Without this plan - nothing would happen. Yet there is also his revealed will we observe in the Bible .  The hidden plan of God for the universe is not ours for the understanding. Why God does what he does is a matter for him. 

    Yet there is also God's revealed will for humanity.  He provides the principles for us of life. He does not command us all to live like robots. He has given humanity the freedom to do what they want so far as it conforms within the boundaries of this covenant.  God's revealed will for humanity is not a set out system of a plan for their life.   The only way to miss God' revealed will is to disobey his principles.  But even to call this "missing God's will" is not really helpful. 


    I don't think people can miss God's plan - ever -

    I don't mind admitting that I have missed it. What is it and how do you know that IT is part of his plan? 
    No one can miss God's plan. Yet people can walk outside of his will.  For example David when he committed adultery walked outside of God's will. And when he murdered Uriah he walked outside of God's will. Yet, in doing so, this was part of God's divine plan.  God's plan included this as a first cause. Yet, David was alone responsible for his actions. He made a choice to go outside of God's will and as such he alone was culpable.  An analogy is the author of a book and the characters within. True it is not perfect analogy - but there is a similarity.  In a novel, the character is responsible and the author is not. It would be absurd to say the author was responsible for all the actions in a book - when the evidence is clear that it was the character in the book.   Yet unless the author wrote the book, then the crimes could not be committed.  First cause and second cause.  I suggest that this analogy as weak as it is - certainly provides a sensible approach to considering first and second causes. God's hidden plan verses God's revealed will. 

    Mostly, however looking to find God's will is a misnomer.

    I am not asking about gods will.  I am simply asking about gods plan.
    Yes. I know. But I am not interested in assisting your strawman arguments. 

  • ethang5
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    --> @Tradesecret
    I personally believe that Islam has influenced this mode of thought among Christians that "Everything that happens is the will/plan of God". Islam is deterministic, and so they (must) believe Allah is capable of evil. So they believe everything that happens, is what God wants or it could not have happened.

    Christians started showing signs of assimilating this sort of thinking a few decades ago. The stumbling thing is, free will. Few understand it. Some even think our free will contradicts God's omnipotence. Some believe we don't have free will at all, but an illusion of free will.

    The aim of the thinking behind this question is to force the Christian to conclude that God is evil. For if everything that happens, happens because God actively wanted it to happen, then it logically follows that God wants evil to happen, at least sometimes. So once you get a person to accept that " everything that happens is God's plan" to remain logical, that person must also conclude that God is evil, because evil happens.

    If you don't believe in God, then you would not ask that sort of question. And if you did believe in God, you would not ask that question. It is the sort of question that someone asks when they don't believe in God and wrongly assume that believers might actually ask such a question. It smacks of condescension.  It is also what is called strawman.  and it is strawman in the sense that it is attempting to structure an argument that you assume they believe and then you will demonstrate why it is nonsense. 
    My guess is that Stephen will gloss over this observation.
  • aletheakatharos
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    --> @Stephen
    You are an expert at ignoring the questions and posing your own.  Twice now you have done this on two of my threads .  Posing your own questions in response to my initial questions do not in any way, answer or address the original - my original questions. 
    I apologize if I have offended you. I have come to this site to learn and I do not consider myself qualified to adequately respond. So my question was to learn more about your position and I was hoping that far more intelligent people would answer your questions.

    Are you a Christian?  Your profile suggest that you are. But are you a practicing Christian?  The title of this thread, my thread does have the words " Christian" and proof of  "gods plan", in it.  I ask because this is an ignorant and habitual ploy that many  Christians adopt when they can't or won't answer the simplest of questions concerning their own scriptures, but instead choose conflict and disruption (and posing their own questions) over such simple questions . 
    I am a practicing Christian, yes. Again, I apologize if my questions offended you. I must have miss-communicated and come across as belligerent instead of inquisitive.

    Did you miss my questions?
    No, I simply do not think I can answer them sufficiently for you. You seem to know a lot, so I cannot imagine what I can say that you have not already heard. But since you seem to want me to try, I will give you what my limited knowledge can offer.
    Was me being born for instance, a part of " gods plan " , if so, why do I not know about it by now?  Will I even know about it?
    I believe your birth (like everyone's) is part of God's plan. God has an overarching plan for all of humanity to be redeemed from sin and live with him. Like pieces on a chessboard, we will all have unique roles to play in that ultimate plan. For example, my role is to teach and protect children from abusive parents. I know my role because it lines up with my passions, my skills, and what I perceive God telling me what to do. I have no idea about your life, so I cannot really answer the last two.
    Was Jesus being sent to earth to suffer and die also part of gods plan?
    Yes, it was mentioned immediately after Adam and Eve ate of the tree.
    Is every act we witness in nature good and bad all part of gods divine plan?
    That is hard to answer because it ventures into theodicy. However, I believe that God works everything together to fulfill his master plan of salvation and restoration from sin.
    Was the "plan" centered on individuals and not everyone,   as Jeremiah 29:11 seems to suggest?

    Jeremiah 29:11 is actually addressed to the entire nation of Israel, so it is not centered on individuals. The ultimate plan is centered on everyone, but God has smaller plans for individuals that he weaves into the tapestry of his plan of salvation.

    As I said before, I am not qualified or intelligent enough to debate you on this. I am sure you know much more than I do. I apologize if asking a question was rude. I hope my responses rectified the situation.
  • Stephen
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    --> @Tradesecret


    I suppose the NT writers got it from the OT and while they were under the inspiration of the Spirit. 
    That's a  fair response if by  "the spirit"  you mean the spirit of god?  Are you saying then the NT authors then believed what they had read in the OT? And do you believe  as they may have done that _  every action taken and word spoken are all by gods design and according to his plan?
     
    What else would I mean?

    That is what I asked you. You appear to be perfectly happy to agree with these authors that every action and every word spoken by anyone, is all part of gods divine plan? Simply correct me if I am wrong.  




    think that one is pretty obvious. Is 53 clearly talks about it, if one assumes that Is 53 is talking about the Messiah suffering as opposed to the nation of Israel. 
    So according to you then,  Isiah 53 is explaining that gods sending of Jesus to suffer and die on a cross was  all part of gods plan?

    And do you agree with Isaiah 53 that it was all gods plan?
    I think Is 53 provides evidence that the Messiah was meant to suffer. Yes.
    But you do agree then  that it was part of gods  divine plan  that Jesus was sent to suffer and die on a cross?



    Was the "plan" centered on individuals and not everyone,   as Jeremiah 29:11 seems to suggest?
     [A] Personally I think Jeremiah 29:11 was directed only to the people Jeremiah was addressing ................

    But it wasn't it god that did the "declaring". :  For I know the plans I have for you,” declares the Lord, “plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future."  
     You really should bone up on these scriptures Reverend. You do make yourself look entirely stupid at time.

    I never said it was not God talking through Jeremiah. Don't be an ass. 

     The bible makes it very clear that these are words spoken by god himself. You seemed to think that it was Jeremiah doing all the, "addressing". SEE YOUR OWN WORDS @  [A] ABOVE.
    I simply pointed out YOUR massive horse's  arshole of a mistake.  You really need to get a grip on these scriptures Reverend if you are going to argue in their- or gods favour.  Or simply get the illiterate and forgetful dunce that is scripting for you to do his fkn homework, he's making you, a man letters, look a complete and utter cretin.



    I think there is a difference between God's divine plan as such for his creation as opposed to his divine will which is recorded for his people to obey.
    What is it and why do you even suggest a difference if everything is god plan?  Surely gods divine will is part of gods plan.

    There is the hidden plan of God
    How would you know, if it is hidden? 



    - which at times he gives us glimpses of - for his own purposes. 
     This is interesting.  And can you give me an example or two of the "glimpses? 


    The hidden plan of God for the universe is not ours for the understanding.
    Well that's all you had to say when you joined my thread, wasn't it. You could have just said know one knows. 

     But instead,  you have wasted my time and your own talking about gods plan that only NOW-  according to you  "is hidden" and "not ours to understand".   So  how do you even know then that every action taken and every word spoken by every god created being is all part of gods divine plan?  you don't do you?  


    Why God does what he does is a matter for him.
    So your words and  your actions are  all preordained by god as part of his divine plan?





    I don't think people can miss God's plan - ever -

    I don't mind admitting that I have missed it. What is it and how do you know that IT is part of his plan? 

    Yet people can walk outside of his will.  For example David when he committed adultery walked outside of God's will. And when he murdered Uriah he walked outside of God's will. Yet, in doing so, this was part of God's divine plan. 


    God's plan included this as a first cause. Yet, David was alone responsible for his actions.
    Are just saying that or can you actually prove  it?


    And  do you ever read what you write before you post it!  If  "this was part of God's divine plan."  then  how at all can it possibly be  that David  ( a son of god) IS responsible for actions that were preordained in a divine plan put together but god himself?   You are simply attempting to wash gods hands for him, .............. 
    and it won't be the first time , will it.

    You have attempted this same shite when I brought up the FACT that it was  GOD,  by his own admission, that caused the  "hardening of Pharaoh's heart"  that brought on all those deadly plagues and caused the deaths  of thousand of first born babies and  children..  Your desperation at that time was the same as it is now,  your   attempts at trying to defend the indefensible simply shows- once again -  that you want it both ways.  Well you can't.

    You have repeated over and over and have been adamant that all this is part of gods divine plan.   And that every action we take and every word we speak are all a part of gods divine plan for us all and the world..  







  • Stephen
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    --> @aletheakatharos
    You are an expert at ignoring the questions and posing your own.  Twice now you have done this on two of my threads .  Posing your own questions in response to my initial questions do not in any way, answer or address the original - my original questions. 
    I apologize if I have offended you.

    You didn't offend me. I was concerned  for you, that you were showing your ignorance  so soon after becoming a member. Attempting to answer a question with a question of your own must be something all christian are trained to do. It seemed to have come to you so natural and effortless. 


    I have come to this site to learn and I do not consider myself qualified to adequately respond.
    But respond you did.  While totally ignoring and without even attempting, the theme of my topic.  you did the same here>>#53



    So my question was to learn more about your position .
    My position is simply. I do not believe these scriptures in the state they have come down to us and the New Testament in particular.  I don't care if or not there is a god and I don't care that Jesus believed that he was dying for my sins.  I am not interested that you have a faith because it is no business of mine , I am not interested in making you an apostate or do I have any intentions of even attempting to turn you from  your god.   It is only that which you have - faith IN, that interests me. i.e the religious scriptures. 


    I am a practicing Christian, yes.
    Then I hope that don't offend you as I seem to do most Christians by highlighting these unreliable, contradictory, ambiguous half stories that make up these scriptures.



    Did you miss my questions?
    No, I simply do not think I can answer them sufficiently for you.

    You won't know until you try.  



    since you seem to want me to try, I will give you what my limited knowledge can offer.
    Was me being born for instance, a part of " gods plan " , if so, why do I not know about it by now?  Will I even know about it?

    Ok. I will take this a piece at a time.


    I believe your birth (like everyone's) is part of God's plan. God has an overarching plan for all of humanity to be redeemed from sin and live with him.
    But can you prove that? -  is my question. 


    Like pieces on a chessboard, we will all have unique roles to play in that ultimate plan. For example, my role is to teach and protect children from abusive parents.
    And that is to be highly, highly commended. And the world should be thankful for people just like you, even those ones that are atheists . 


    I know my role because it lines up with my passions, my skills,
    Indeed, the operative words being "my".


    and what I perceive God telling me what to do.
    You say what you "perceive it to be god telling you", suggesting doubt?  Can you not accept that you got to where you are by, and on,  your own merit and hard work? Are you telling me then that without  what you perceive to be  "divine intervention"  you couldn't have or wouldn't have achieved your " psych major?  And didn't you mention a "placebo effect" and  tell us that your " personal and emotional reasons lie in how my faith influenced my life experiences".#1  aletheakatharos

    And I am sure that I do not have to point out to you that religious "faith" is based on  a spiritual conviction only, rather than proof.  Which us back to my question of can you/Christians prove god has a plan for us all? 




    Was Jesus being sent to earth to suffer and die also part of gods plan?
    Yes, it was mentioned immediately after Adam and Eve ate of the tree.

    Ok. And what part of "the fall" mentions that  god intends to send Jesus to suffer a Roman execution and  die  a cross?  Where is it that  god says _ '  for what you have done I will send my only begotten son to die a roman execution of crucifixion"? 



    Is every act we witness in nature good and bad all part of gods divine plan?
    That is hard to answer because it ventures into theodicy. However, I believe that God works everything together to fulfill his master plan of salvation and restoration from sin.

    But you have no proof of the extremely well detailed plan.  And Theodicy is simply an avenue that all Christians take when they are caught cold  and confronted with  indefensible actions taken by their god. SEE post #9



    Was the "plan" centered on individuals and not everyone,   as Jeremiah 29:11 seems to suggest?

    Jeremiah 29:11 is actually addressed to the entire nation of Israel, so it is not centered on individuals.

    Yes it is an address by god himself to his  "treasured and chosen people , Israel"  as  

    Deuteronomy 14:2,  confirms, "For you are a holy people to YHWH your God, and God has chosen you to be his treasured people from all the nations that are on the face of the earth."


    As I said before, I am not qualified [.....................] to debate you on this.

     That is why you have to rely on faith alone... and what you have been told.   Most  Christians do not read the scriptures for themselves.  They totally rely on those they believe qualified to do so, people with titles  as pastor a priest or a Chaplin,  to give them guidance in their daily lives  and tell them what god expects of them.
    They have had the scriptures read to them.  In their bible studies and or classes or church, they are told which page,  chapter and verse to turn to, the passage is then read out to them and then it is explained to them in a sermon, and sometimes questions are taken and quickly waived away as insignificant or irrelevant. I have witnessed this many times. 
    This is excusable for millions of Christians and  for  obvious reasons : they simply do not have the time.  You have told me  here #53  _  "I have never been an atheist so I am so curious!" _  ,   yet  you also say that  "I am not qualified" to discuss or debate "  this with me.     And  you have proven my point right there..  Christian all of your life yet know only basic religious teachings about the scriptures and  that what you have been told or had explained for you. It is not your fault and I am not blaming you.

    People have to keep their heads down and noses to the grind stone for a living, to keep bread on the table and roofs over heads.    This in turn has created  a comfortable  suitable position in life and  lucrative employment for some to take advantage of.  If you can't accept what I say, then take on faith and  accept what Jesus has to say>>





    “Beware of the teachers of the law. They like to walk around in flowing robes and love to be greeted with respect in the marketplaces and have the most important seats in the synagogues and the places of honor at banquets.  They devour widows’ houses and for a show make lengthy prayers. "
    Luke 20:46-47  New International Version

    And there is Mathew
    Seven Woes to the Scribes and Pharisees

    23 Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples, 2 “The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses' seat, 3 so do and observe whatever they tell you, but not the works they do. For they preach, but do not practice. 4 They tie up heavy burdens, hard to bear, and lay them on people's shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to move them with their finger. 5 They do all their deeds to be seen by others. For they make their phylacteries broad and their fringes long, 6 and they love the place of honor at feasts and the best seats in the synagogues 7 and greetings in the marketplaces and being called rabbi by others".


  • Utanity
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    Utanity
    --> @Stephen
    Can Christians prove that  god had a plan for every single one of us from day one of ours creation? Is that plan on course? 
    Only true Christians can prove that God has the plan but he will never tell us what it is. Does kernel sanders say whats in the kfc no he doesnt because he wants us to enjoy the tasty thies and legs and breasts. And if he did give out the recipe then everyone will copy kfc. So you dont want everyone copying your plan do you.
  • aletheakatharos
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    --> @Stephen
    But respond you did.  While totally ignoring and without even attempting, the theme of my topic. 
    Thank you for your response to my poor attempt at answering. I have learned my lesson and will not further respond :)
  • Stephen
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    --> @Utanity
    Can Christians prove that  god had a plan for every single one of us from day one of ours creation? Is that plan on course? 
    Only true Christians can prove that God has the plan but he will never tell us what it is.

    So are you a  far too clever Christian  or far too stupid Christian then to be able to prove the plan?



    Does kernel sanders say whats in the kfc

     Well I can examine the chicken for myself. But I am not sure about it all coming from Kentucky or  that it is all fried in Kentucky.


    if he did give out the recipe then everyone will copy kfc.

    But we are all indeed gods. We were " made in the image of the gods"  and we have " become like gods"  or do you not believe the bible and gods own predictions.


    So you dont want everyone copying your plan do you.

    I may not want to copy it. So far, the plan if ever there was or is one, has been nothing but conflict. 

  • Stephen
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    --> @aletheakatharos
    But respond you did.  While totally ignoring and without even attempting, the theme of my topic. 
    Thank you for your response to my poor attempt at answering.

    No problem. I found some of what you have said helpful. 


    I have learned my lesson and will not further respond :)

    It wasn't intended as a lesson. I simply replied to you and your own comments . And you either respond or you don't. 

    You mentioned that you " adopted the faith of your parents"#1  It would be nice if you could follow up on that explaining how and  why  here>>  https://www.debateart.com/forum/topics/5301-how-does-one-become-a-christian





  • Utanity
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    --> @Stephen
    I may not want to copy it. So far, the plan if ever there was or is one, has been nothing but conflict. 

    Thats good and thats the way god made the life because you cant have the yan without the ying and you cant have the classic without the krispy and spisey so you will always have conflict but whats important is not that you have the conflict but how you put the handel on it.
  • ethang5
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    Lol. The genius killed his own thread by being a jerk to responders.
  • Stephen
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    --> @ethang5
    The genius killed his own thread by being a jerk to responders.

    Nope.   All Christians here have failed miserably to even give us a clue to what gods plan is yet bang on about it constantly.
     You also  mentioned :

    being a jerk

     Well let me tell you, all these non responses dovetail   nicely with other threads of mine where Christians have also failed miserably to explain how they even became Christians!!!!  Such as you,; you have completely stayed silent on the matter haven't you.   And along with how Christians, after thousands of years, talking repeatedly at all hours of every day  about "gods will",  haven't got a fkn clue as to what the will of  gods  actually is. 

    I have said many times here. I am more than happy when CHRISTIANS fail to answer or even respond to my questions  or add to my threads. You do me a great service and yourself and your god a great disservice, "jerk"







  • ethang5
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    Lol.

    I tried to respond earlier but traffic to your thread was too high.

    Lol!