XMAS 2020 Mafia - Day Phase 1

Author: Danielle

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#301
oromagi
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@Vader
A Mime is a member of a third-party faction that wins only if all of its members are voted out, or eliminated. The Mime faction also has a factional Roleblock that can be used at Night to hopefully stop the Mafia's kill. If the Mime faction wins, the game usually ends.

A single Mime is nearly equivalent to a Jester-Roleblocker, the difference being that Jesters tend to not end games when they win.

Mimes are generally not used outside the aforementioned Open setup because if a single one of them gets killed (i.e. not eliminated), all of them lose.

#302
Vader
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@That1User
Why are you so indicitive that they are a third party. You say this is an "if" theory, but you yourself are consistently bringing up with logic that doesn't co-exist between the two. I do find this behavior peculiar and strange that you are so adament over the third party theory, yet you claim it as a theory and are dismissing the fact they might be mafia. 
#303
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@oromagi
Apologies. I was thinking of a Mimic LMAO
#304
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Normally if this were a normal conversation, people are just adament on saying, they are scummy, we should lynch. But That1 is being extremely suggestive to them directly being a third party for an odd reason, without reasoning with the possibility that they are mafia. I find it peculiar to focus on a third party aspect versus using scum. Seems somewhat strange
#305
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As much as That1 is prominent on the third party, I have a town read on Magic. I haven't done forum mafia with her, but I have been with her and knew her inside actions in a Lovers Mafia game, and to me, I just don't think she'd take the risk in claiming a character that has a higher chance of being lynched due to policy itself than not. There's much more risk to doing that then there is benefit
#306
Vader
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What the actual fuck is Water saying
#307
Vader
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Well I'll check pings in a bit I'm gonna finish up this arc I'm writing for my story
#308
Speedrace
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@LikeMagic
It is notable that White has disappeared likely hoping any heat on him will die down. He dropped one quick rebuttal and is now probably sitting back and waiting until it's safer for him to come back in. 
You say to the doctor and debater who has a wife at 9pm :|
#309
Speedrace
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02 whiteflame - Null, playing fine but hard to read
03 Supa - Lean town
04 Lunatic - Lean town (?)
05 oromagi - Obvious scum
06 drafterman - Null
07 that1user - Lean town, her logic is literally just as bad as in the last game and she sounds just like that
08 Pie - Null
09 LikeMagic - Lean town for claim, 
10 Bullish - Null
11 WaterPhoenix - Lean scum
12 MisterChris - Absent
#310
That1User
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Normally if this were a normal conversation, people are just adament on saying, they are scummy, we should lynch. But That1 is being extremely suggestive to them directly being a third party for an odd reason, without reasoning with the possibility that they are mafia. I find it peculiar to focus on a third party aspect versus using scum. Seems somewhat strange
Magic/WF mafia is possible, but not as probable as a mime team, hated is perfect way to get lynched as mime, WF's behavior indicates mime, though I can see him being mafia 
#311
Lunatic
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@Speedrace
10 Bullish - Null
I thought you agreed that his logic seemed contrived earlier; What changed?
#312
Lunatic
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As of right now my only lynching options would be Bullish, waterphoenix and VTNL. We have another day tofigure out options, but right now this is where I am at. 
Topic's author
#313
Danielle
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Good morning everyone! The day phase will still end at 4:30 pm EST today. 

If you have a night action, try to submit it tonight before you eat dinner :) 


Vote Count

Water (Pie, Speed, Bullish, oromagi) -- 4/7 votes 
No Lynch (whiteflame) -- 1/7 votes 
Bullish (Lunatic, that1user)  -- 2/7 votes
whiteflame (LikeMagic) -- 1/7 votes



#314
drafterman
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01 Speedrace

Null. Always scum, doh

02 whiteflame

Null.

03 Supa

I don't know what it is about Supa that he forgets absolutely everything there is to know about Mafia every single game. It's like we're playing "50 First Mafia Games" here.

But, UnCCd Santa puts him in the Town pile.

04 Lunatic

I don't like his initial interactions with the mod. Typically players ask mods these kinds of questions in private. These questions come out a bit too "ooh, look at me, I'm so town because I'm asking these questions that a town person would ask. I'm definitely not mafia that already knows the answers."

It just rub sme the wrong way. Danielle has never been a bastard mod that I've ever seen so this insistence that there must be a tailor or some sort of deception in the mod's information is a bit out of place.

Lunatic then goes after Bullish for Bullish' old school meta (see his entry below). I feel like we've done this before. Bullish follows old SOP and gets scum read for it and I'm the only person that recognizes it as old SOP and not a scum tell.

05 oromagi

Definitely scum.

06 drafterman

The Towniest person in all of Townville.

07 that1user

Okay, the whole "Jester" comment. I can see it as an innocent remark. If it is SOP to automatically lynch a Hated (which it shouldn't be), then claiming Hated as Jester might be a smart play. It'd be a smarter play to claim POPULAR since everyone gets a boner to test popular (2-3 times, even) and that would be an automatic free lynch, immediately.

I don't see that That1 over dwelled on the idea. It seemed like an off the cuff remark.

08 Pie

Consistent with his stance on Hated WRT last game as Town.

09 LikeMagic

The "Hated" situation. Mathematically, the only issue Hated poses if we are complete derps and mislynch every Day Phase. In which case, yeah, let's lynch the Hated, but we're losing anyway. In any other case (where we No Lynch or Lynch sucessfully) mislynching a Hated Townie has the same impact on the game with respect to the game ending early than letting the Hated Townie live.

I also disagree that it's SOP to automatically claim Hated and I'm not sure where that went. Town is overly concerned with getting rid of the Hated because there are situations where Mafia can force a win when they otherwise couldn't. It's in Town's interest to avoid those situations and Mafia's interest to arrange the situation to happen. By claiming Hated, Mafia wants to keep the Hated alive to try and arrange that situation. Hated, by SOP, should zip their lips and hope they are NKd as you would for a Vanilla. The fear is you accidentally get mislynched but, if you do, so what? Town would have wanted to lynch you automatically anyway.

10 Bullish

Bullish is going after things that are pretty standard: TP stuff, answering for other people, fishing for claims. While all the things he pointed out do fall into those categories, I'm not placing the same level of emphasis on them. It's old school meta that is typical of Bullish and therefore null.

11 WaterPhoenix

Back to the "Jester" situation. While I read That1's comment as off-the-cuff, Water seems to come in and focus on it more seriously. Jester is a maligned role that is very rarely ever used in the DDO/DART meta, at least not without some sort of warning (which we don't yet have). It is so maligned, in fact, that people often ignore the times when a Jester wins because it is so easy to win it is automatic with no real defense.

It would be a scum motivation to imply there is a Jester because, theoretically, that would make Town wary of lynching the suspected Jester. The question now is: Is this something scum water would think of? Scum doens't care about Jester; they'll just NK them if they fear they will get lynched. Scum does, however, have a reason to imply that another scum player is a Jester: to avoid that player getting lynched.

Do I think this is some 5D chess move by scum partners LikeMagic/Water? larrydavidunsure.gif

The "Innocent Townie" situation. Water claims to have an issue with innocent child here, but Speed points out that Water has been exposed to it before and therefore shouldn't have a problem. Speed suggests that this makes Water scum trying to do... I dunno.

Here are some problems with this:

1. It's possible Water didn't have a problem with innocent townie before because it was their first time seeing it and hadn't formed an opinion yet.

2. We just went through an entire game last game where everyone was bashing Water for not being able to come up with ploys like this. There was a whole thing were Water and/or Speed were suspected of being scum but it was dismissed because if Water was scum, his partners wouldn't have let him claim what he claimed.

Are we forgetting that? Do we think scum would let Water try got throw shade on the literal mod confirmed town person?

12 MisterChris

Null.

#315
Speedrace
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@Lunatic
I thought you agreed that his logic seemed contrived earlier; What changed?
I don't know if that's a scumtell for him. I've only seen him as mafia on Discord and don't know his meta here, I can't remember the last game I played with him on forums
#316
MisterChris
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Today's a half day in the slammer, so I'll be able to catch up
#317
That1User
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@drafterman
@WaterPhoenix

 We just went through an entire game last game where everyone was bashing Water for not being able to come up with ploys like this. There was a whole thing were Water and/or Speed were suspected of being scum but it was dismissed because if Water was scum, his partners wouldn't have let him claim what he claimed.
This could be a situation where WP tries to prove himself and it ends up backfiring, this discouts that WP can act as a rogue scum w/out the imput of his partners, it is weird how the logic for Water has changed though, going from him not being allowed by scum to do this to being scum for doing this, what's interesting to me is this,
 
-->@drafterman
Sorry, I face palmed so hard at innocent townie being anti-town that it went through the back of my head.
i was trying my best to not throw this game :(

Trying not to throw who's game? 


#318
Speedrace
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@drafterman
We just went through an entire game last game where everyone was bashing Water for not being able to come up with ploys like this. There was a whole thing were Water and/or Speed were suspected of being scum but it was dismissed because if Water was scum, his partners wouldn't have let him claim what he claimed.
This isn't a ploy though
#319
WaterPhoenix
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Speedrace - Lean Town: He catches a questionable play by me, but he doesn't keep pushing it like someone who's scum would, trying to force a lynch.

whiteflame- Null: Likemagic says that his passive behavior is scummy. while it is true post 173 does look opportunistic he says he normally plays like this and since i don't really remember how he usually plays i'mma just put him in null.

Supa- Null/Slightly lean town: good insight i guess

Lunatic- lean  town

oromagi - Town: Innocent Child

drafterman- lean town: his hated theory does not look like something scum would do, in fact, it'd be a throw if he were scum.

that1user- null: i don't really have an opinion on the the thrid party mess.

Pie - null: drafter says that his stance on hated is the same as before but i don't really see how that make someone town so much as just not inconsistent. also, in post 210 he said he voted me at the start of dp for pressure for a full claim?

LikeMagic- Null: Announces that she's hated but doesn't want to say what character she is in fear of mafia coming up with fake claims. i respect that idea and think it's a good one but i think she should probably character claim next dp though with the nk and any other information, if she doesn't it'll start seeming like scum struggling to figure out a fake claim. 

Bullish- Lean Scum: I don't really have much to comment on the third party thing. while i do think the point made about scum being more likely to go after third party than town, i don't think it's such a foreign concept for town to suggest there's third party. i'm scumreading him because he tells that1 that lunatic is manipulating her to think that he (bullish) is hard scumreading her when that isn't true. however, that's very true as shown by how the page is just him asking how town doesn't know that searching for 3rd party is a hard scum tell.

WaterPhoenix- Town: Yes

MisterChris - Null/Slight Scum: Not on

tldr; i'd totally lynch bullish this dp

#320
WaterPhoenix
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@That1User
Trying not to throw who's game? 
danielle's game. what i meant by trying not to throw this game is that i've made extremely questionable decisions all of my recent games and was determined to be a perfect townie this game...

#321
Bullish
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@WaterPhoenix
So your only defense is your "memory" That's pretty much the shit excuse I expected.

It's time for u to full claim. You have the biggest wagon right now.

before this you literally ranted about how town was stupid for not knowing suspecting third party is a hard scum tell (#251, #232)
I said hunting TP is a CLASSIC scum tell, not a HARD scum tell. What I said in 232 directly contradicts what you're trying to say I said. You've now been caught twice saying BS against townies.
#322
Bullish
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@drafterman
@Vader
@MisterChris
@LikeMagic
We now have only 5 hours left in the DP, lets get a lynch through on Water.
#323
ILikePie5
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Catching up now
#324
WaterPhoenix
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@Bullish
Well you're wrong cause this is literally one of the classicest of classic scum tells and I am genuinely baffled you of all people do not know about it, and then come here and try to argue against it with a bunch of fallacies.

I don't even scum read u that hard.

#325
WaterPhoenix
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@Bullish
what was the first time
#326
WaterPhoenix
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@drafterman
@Vader
@MisterChris
@LikeMagic
ignore that message from bullish and vote him
#327
ILikePie5
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@LikeMagic
I have cited the inconsistencies and how you are behaviorally playing as someone scared to fall on anyone's radar, even when you fall on it non-threateningly
This unfortunately is his meta going back 3-4 games. He was scum once and that was as Lone Wolf but the meta remained largely the same 
#328
ILikePie5
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@LikeMagic
Your basis for suspecting Bullish is silly. Do you know how many games i have been in where scum said, in response to a valid role claim of an otherwise non suspicious townie, "oh but could be X twist to the role, or could be TP, or could be totally random game mechanic," just to undermine the townread in hopes of a mislynch.
Normally I agree but you have to look at this specific case. That1 is a noob. Plus why talk about you being a TP when you’re going to be lynched anyways. There’s no use for her to “mislynch” you cause you’re going to be lynched eventually anyways. 
#329
drafterman
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@WaterPhoenix
Have you claimed yet?
#330
ILikePie5
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@WaterPhoenix
last game it didn't matter that there was an innocent child but this game it does so that's why i'm questioning the role itself
What