it is misguided to think businesses would just raise prices in response to a minimum wage hike

Author: n8nrgmi

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#31
Danielle
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@Greyparrot
I agree with Peterson's point that some people are inherently low-functioning, so more education wouldn't help them. But liberals saying "everyone should have equal access to education" doesn't translate to "everyone is the same" so he mispresented. Liberals know everyone isn't the same and don't have the same circumstances or capacity to provide, which is why they advocate for support through minimum wage hikes or social programs (welfare, unemployment, disability) which Republicans are always trying to cut even though some people don't have the faculties to work. What do conservatives advocate for to address this issue? Assuming the only thing they have to offer is BUY AMERICAN, I fail to see how that addresses the 10% of people who won't see any of that money either. You predictably did not answer my question about any ideas or solutions you might have. 

#32
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@Danielle

Peterson explains at the end of this video discussing UBI how the 10% needs more than just money to satisfy the bottom of that pyramid. The 10% need the top of the pyramid of needs fulfilled to attain happiness. UBI only satisfies the bottom part. Eliminating burdensome regulations so that the 10% can have some job even if it is not up to the level of a "living wage" allows the 10% to find fulfillment with a sense that they are contributing to society. Minimum wage ensures the bottom 10% won't have that job or a feeling of contributing to society.

You predictably did not answer my question about any ideas or solutions you might have. 
You're so nasty sometimes lol, (go take a hit before you respond to this) but anyway, my solution is a mix between Yang and Freidman policies with an immediate repeal of the minimum wage.

Do you agree?
#33
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@Danielle
Freidman's version of Yang's UBI is the NIT.


Interesting food for thought.
#34
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@Danielle
doesn't translate to "everyone is the same" so he mispresented. Liberals know everyone isn't the same and don't have the same circumstances or capacity to provide, which is why they advocate for support through minimum wage hikes.
If you are attempting to use minimum wage as a vehicle of charity, it is the most ill-conceived method of charity imaginable, since the 10% most likely won't see any of it.

The idea that every person is capable of earning a living wage is wholly a construct of both the Democrats AND Republicans, and both are dead wrong for different reasons.


#35
ethang5
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Forget politics. Does the UBI make mathematical sense? Even if we use it as charity, does to make mathematical sense? When did charity become free from logic? Doesn't even charity have to be sustainable? Money doesn't grow on trees, and people do not work for free.
#36
Danielle
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@Greyparrot
You're so nasty sometimes lol, (go take a hit before you respond to this) but anyway,

I think I misunderstood the tone of your first response to me and took your not answering me as rude dismissiveness. It seems you have added to the post, but I may have misread it initially and if so I apologize.  I thought you were baiting me into a "discussion" but then ignoring my questions again, which, to be fair, you do all the time lol. But my intent is not to be nasty to you so I am sorry if you felt I was. 


my solution is a mix between Yang and Freidman policies with an immediate repeal of the minimum wage.

Do you agree?

To be honest I am not as confident in an immediate repeal as I once was. The capitalist in me wants to say yes, of course, but as someone who doesn't make minimum wage I admit I feel a weird sense of guilt knowing people's income would immediately go down and the cost of living would not. For instance someone who makes $15 minimum wage in NYC working as an administrator in a doctor's office would suddenly be offered $13. Assuming the person agreed to the pay cut to keep their job, it's not like their rent would immediately go down. It's not like the bus fare would immediately go down to get them to work. 

I would have to think more about it and I try to consume as much information from as many different perspectives as possible. 

A mix between Yang and Friedman policies is extremely vague...





#37
Danielle
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@Greyparrot
Edit: Immediately repeal minimum wage during the coronavirus pandemic, absolutely, and on small businesses or start-ups probably yes unless you offer some kind of subsidy which seems complicated. 

So probably yes in general. 
#38
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@Danielle
the point is that you wouldn't need low-skill earners to earn a living wage if you had a program that made up the difference such as NIT or UBI.

You know the difference between the 2 yes?


#39
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@Danielle
 I thought you were baiting me into a "discussion" but then ignoring my questions again, which, to be fair, you do all the time lol.
To be fair most of the time it is because I agree with you too much for any discussion to be interesting lol!
#40
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@Danielle
You should know me by now, If I ignore you it usually means I agree with you. If I ignore someone else, it usually means they aren't saying anything coherent. In both cases, it's not going to lead to any stimulating conversation.
#41
ILikePie5
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@HistoryBuff
But if your business model requires you to pay your workers a wage they can't live on, then you have a shitty business model. These businesses need a shake up. either they fix their business model to not rely on abusing workers, or they need to get out of the way so someone with a better business model can replace them. 
It’s not shitty if you’re making money exploiting Chinese workers lol.
#42
ILikePie5
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@Danielle
(Since it's wrong for government to force business owners to pay more than they have to just so Americans can earn a living wage, right?) 
A living wage in NYC is far different than a living wage in Muskogee, Oklahoma. Why does it have to be nationwide. Why can’t we do it locally?
#43
HistoryBuff
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@ILikePie5
It’s not shitty if you’re making money exploiting Chinese workers lol.
Do you think I have ever said that it was a good thing to exploit Chinese workers? It isn't. But we can't regulate how china treats it's workers. We can, and should, regulate how American workers are treated.

Topic's author
#44
n8nrgmi
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@ILikePie5
why do u think chinese workers are being exploited? because they dont get a decent minimum wage?
#45
ILikePie5
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@HistoryBuff
Do you think I have ever said that it was a good thing to exploit Chinese workers? It isn't. But we can't regulate how china treats it's workers. We can, and should, regulate how American workers are treated.
Why would any company mine earth metals in the US when 

A) Democrats are against it
B) It’s cheaper to do it in China
#46
ILikePie5
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@n8nrgmi
why do u think chinese workers are being exploited? because they dont get a decent minimum wage?
They barely get a wage. Insane hours. Think your average sweatshop
#47
HistoryBuff
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@ILikePie5
Why would any company mine earth metals in the US when 

A) Democrats are against it
democrats aren't against mining. I don't know where you got that idea. They are against specific kinds of natural resource extraction that are particularly damaging. But not mining. 

B) It’s cheaper to do it in China
I'm not sure I understand what your point is here. Are you advocating for market controls to force up the price up materials so that it is profitable to do mining in america? That doesn't sound like free market Capitolism to me. It sounds like government control of the market. Aren't you supposed to be against that?
#48
ILikePie5
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@HistoryBuff
democrats aren't against mining. I don't know where you got that idea. They are against specific kinds of natural resource extraction that are particularly damaging. But not mining. 
Uh yes they do lol, there was a whole controversy in Minnesota because of this lol. You need these metals to build the solar panels and the batteries.


I'm not sure I understand what your point is here. Are you advocating for market controls to force up the price up materials so that it is profitable to do mining in america? That doesn't sound like free market Capitolism to me. It sounds like government control of the market. Aren't you supposed to be against that?
What I’m saying is stop regulating the mining industry so prices are lower here and we don’t have to rely on China for the metals lol. Even if labor costs more here, there are a lot of other costs in the value chain that are avoided.
#49
HistoryBuff
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@ILikePie5
Uh yes they do lol, there was a whole controversy in Minnesota because of this lol. You need these metals to build the solar panels and the batteries.

That article says that they primarily are opposed to one specific mine, the Twin Metals mine which is a high risk of polluting a major water source. So, like I said, they are not opposed to mining, just the forms of mining that are particularly damaging. 

What I’m saying is stop regulating the mining industry so prices are lower here and we don’t have to rely on China for the metals lol.\
What regulations are you talking about? the ones that prevent them poisoning people's water? What exactly are these regulations that are raising the prices that you want to get rid of. 

Even if labor costs more here, there are a lot of other costs in the value chain that are avoided.
What exactly are you proposing? What changes do you think need to be made to make it more competitive? and do not tell me "cutting regulation". If that is going to be your answer I want very specific regulations you would propose cutting. If you lack specifics, I will call you out for having no idea what you are talking about. 
#50
ILikePie5
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@HistoryBuff
That article says that they primarily are opposed to one specific mine, the Twin Metals mine which is a high risk of polluting a major water source. So, like I said, they are not opposed to mining, just the forms of mining that are particularly damaging. 
That’s literally the economy of the entire Iron Range. Where else do you propose we get the metals? China right? The same China that would pollute 10x as much. Good job environmentalists.

What regulations are you talking about? the ones that prevent them poisoning people's water? What exactly are these regulations that are raising the prices that you want to get rid of.
Let’s just let the Chinese kill their people then. Gimme a break dude. These are all buzz words. There’s technology in place to reduce all of this stuff. Even if there isn’t why don’t you invest in it so you don’t have to ship off the job to the Chinese who definitely don’t give two shits about their people and the environment.

What exactly are you proposing? What changes do you think need to be made to make it more competitive? and do not tell me "cutting regulation". If that is going to be your answer I want very specific regulations you would propose cutting. If you lack specifics, I will call you out for having no idea what you are talking about.
It was competitive. The Iron Range in Minnesota was booming under Trump. Now it’s gonna go down the drains cause of Joe Biden. I didn’t here shit about the water in the Iron Range of Minnesota within the last 4 years. Did you? I don’t hear the people living in the Iron Range complaining about their water, do you. It’s just posturing put out by your allies in media once again. If  I’m saying to leave the status quo. But you just want to close down the mines and let the Chinese do it, which is a million times worse lol
#51
HistoryBuff
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@ILikePie5
That’s literally the economy of the entire Iron Range. Where else do you propose we get the metals? 
1 specific mine is the economy of the entire iron range? really?

The same China that would pollute 10x as much. Good job environmentalists.
so your argument is that we should poison americans to keep china from poisoning chinese people? Seriously? that is a seriously stupid argument. 

Let’s just let the Chinese kill their people then. Gimme a break dude. These are all buzz words.
wait, so you think mines poisoning water supplies is what, fake? You don't believe that happens? Here  is a link to a mine that had the same type of polution they are worried about at twin metals mine. They killed everything in the water for miles and cost the government hundreds of millions to try to clean it up. This is not "buzz words", this shit really happens and causes huge amounts of damage. 

There’s technology in place to reduce all of this stuff. 
sounds like someone is putting all their trust in "authority". You have no idea if they can really contain the contamination or not. You are just assuming they can. 

 The Iron Range in Minnesota was booming under Trump. Now it’s gonna go down the drains cause of Joe Biden. I didn’t here shit about the water in the Iron Range of Minnesota within the last 4 years. Did you?
lol what? the article you just provided me is from last year. IE "under trump". You are disproving your own statements before you even make them. 
Topic's author
#52
n8nrgmi
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@HistoryBuff
u r very good at pointing out stupid arguments 
#53
Greyparrot
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@n8nrgmi
u r very good at pointing out stupid arguments 

I suppose that's better than being good at pointing out stupid unworkable solutions to complex problems.
#54
Greyparrot
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@HistoryBuff
That’s literally the economy of the entire Iron Range. Where else do you propose we get the metals? 
China.

The same China that would pollute 10x as much. Good job environmentalists.
You don't expect America to give a fuck about what China dumps onto the planet, do you? Just a sec, let me fill this "recyclable" bin so all the unprocessable stuff and stuff that's too toxic to process in the USA can be shipped out to the Pacific Rim. I got a plane to catch for my next climate summit.

Let’s just let the Chinese kill their people then. Gimme a break dude. These are all buzz words.
China is fine, relax. 

There’s technology in place to reduce all of this stuff. 
You need to go get the Elite Oligarchy in DC to subsidize Elon Musk then because you know he NEVER gets others to invest in his ideas.

 The Iron Range in Minnesota was booming under Trump. Now it’s gonna go down the drains cause of Joe Biden. I didn’t here shit about the water in the Iron Range of Minnesota within the last 4 years. Did you?
Dude, everyone knows the alternatives have absolutely NO unintended consequences or hidden hazards. Trust Authority. 

#55
thett3
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Of course there comes a certain point where an increase to the minimum wage actually harms poor people by resulting in automation/labor cutbacks. It's why I'm opposed to a $15 minimum wage. But what I think a lot of conservatives are missing is that there is a middle ground where the government can force business to pay their employees above what the "market" would decide, without it being a significant detriment to employment. 

I think people who haven't lived in poverty (and this includes me) don't really understand just how little $7.25 is. That's like the price of a fast food meal...that is less than $300 for a week of fulltime work.  It's such a small amount of money that it is difficult to imagine a company going through the hassle and risk of hiring an employee who actually provides them only $7.25/hr in marginal benefits. In reality virtually all minimum wage workers are surely worth much more than $7.25/hr to the company. At so low a price point companies are just exploiting poor/desperate people and paying them that little because they can. Fortunately very few people make the federal minimum wage, because localities often set their own minimum wages to be higher--a good system. But in such a wealthy country nobody should be making that little money. There is absolutely 0 justification for minimum wage not being indexed to inflation, at the very least. I don't know what the exact number should be, but $10-11 sounds about right. 
#56
Vader
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This post, how to collapse small business 101
#57
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@n8nrgmi
prices are set by supply and demand. not labor costs. 
If less goods are produced because less businesses are able to afford to produce it that causes supply to decrease.

If more consumers are able to afford a good because their wages just increased by 20% or more that causes demand to increase.

Decrease in supply, increase in demand. What happens to the price?