Our most basic axioms

Author: secularmerlin

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#31
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@Tarik
I am saying the same thing about god(s) as I am saying about ghosts and alien abduction. I have no reason whatsoever to take any hypothesis seriously that proposes something that cannot be demonstrated. I hardly believe in things that can be demonstrated and only because it is expedient to do so.
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@secularmerlin
I have no reason whatsoever to take any hypothesis seriously that proposes something that cannot be demonstrated.
How do you know it can’t be demonstrated? That requires you to know what happens when you die, how do you know?
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#33
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@Tarik
How do you know it can’t be demonstrated? That requires you to know what happens when you die, how do you know?
What reason is there to think that anything happens after you die? In any case if there is truly no way to know if there is some afterlife (as yet undefined) before death than it is still irrational to believe anything before then. That is a very poor argument for believing in something while you are still alive.
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@secularmerlin
What reason is there to think that anything happens after you die?
The same reason you say everything you say, think everything you think, feel everything that you feel, do everything that you do. If a reason is all you’re looking for than that’s a start.
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#35
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@Tarik
Let me rephrase. Even taking my experience of the physical universe as more or less representative of reality what observable demonstrable reason is there to think that there is an afterlife or (and I can't stress enough that these are two separate issues which would need to be demonstrated independently) of any god(s).

If I'm being honest with you most people who want you to clarify if you "lack belief" or "believe there is no" are trying to shift the burden of proof. Do pull the old switcheroo and turn the conversation from show me your god to show me no god is possible. I am not claiming no god is possible. I'm claiming that no god is evident and that there is no reason to suspect that there is one until there is reason to suspect there is one.
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@secularmerlin
I'm claiming that no god is evident and that there is no reason to suspect that there is one until there is reason to suspect there is one.
I literally just gave you a reason did you just write that off?
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@Tarik
Your reason was unconvincing. I'm sorry. What would be convincing is some demonstration within the physical universe of whatever it is you are actually proposing. You still haven't even explained exactly what it is you believe or why you believe it so it is actually a little hard to evaluate your claims at all.
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@secularmerlin
Your reason was unconvincing.
Could it be because you don’t know the answers to those questions?
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#39
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@Tarik
I know I don't have the answers. That doesn't obligate me to accept your explanation (for whatever it is we are talking about) if you cannot back up your claims to any reasonable degree or even really explain what you are saying.
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@secularmerlin
I know I don't have the answers.
You not knowing the answers to those questions means you don’t think before you act which is the epitome of ignorance (no offense) it is my belief that if you do some soul searching within yourself and find the answers to those questions your whole perspective will change, a massive paradigm shift.
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#41
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@Tarik
you don’t think before you act 
This is both incorrect and insulting. That and the fact that you still have yet to share your axioms (from which you will presumably build to your god claim) leads me to believe that you have no intention of discussing your position honestly. I look forward to being proved wrong in the next post by being treated to an in depth look at these axioms. I thank you for this in depth look in advance. 
#42
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@secularmerlin
This is both incorrect and insulting.
Sorry but what’s the truth? Because according to you don’t know.

you have no intention of discussing your position honestly
My position isn’t unique I’m a believer, that’s all I got.
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#43
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@Tarik
This is both incorrect and insulting.
Sorry but what’s the truth? Because according to you don’t know.
What does knowing if there is anything after life have to do with thinking before you act in this life?

I will thank you not to put words in my mouth


you have no intention of discussing your position honestly
My position isn’t unique I’m a believer, that’s all I got.
Ok yes I gathered you believe in something. You have yet however to explain exactly what you believe. There are literally thousands of proposed gods. If you favor one mythology over another you still haven't expressed it.
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@secularmerlin
What does knowing if there is anything after life have to do with thinking before you act in this life?
Your outlook on life will be completely different if you knew you would be punished or rewarded for certain choices.

I will thank you not to put words in my mouth
Pardon me but what did I say that was wrong?

You have yet however to explain exactly what you believe.
I believe we should and shouldn’t do certain things, and I can’t think of anything other than an afterlife that can validate that belief.
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#45
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@Tarik
What does knowing if there is anything after life have to do with thinking before you act in this life?
Your outlook on life will be completely different if you knew you would be punished or rewarded for certain choices.
Is your argument here that the only thing that makes you a good person is belief in some extra cosmic force waiting to spank you after you die? That you would be a rapist and a murderer if you only believed in things you could actually demonstrate to be true?
I will thank you not to put words in my mouth
Pardon me but what did I say that was wrong?
Anything that proposes that you know my mind or the content of my character better than I do myself. I have not done that to you.
You have yet however to explain exactly what you believe.
I believe we should and shouldn’t do certain things, and I can’t think of anything other than an afterlife that can validate that belief.
Should and shouldn't do what? Validate that belief how? Why would an afterlife, assuming there even is one, have any more answers than this one does?
#46
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@secularmerlin
Is your argument here that the only thing that makes you a good person is belief in some extra cosmic force waiting to spank you after you die?
No, what makes you a good person isn’t as clear cut to me as it is for other people, I find morality as a whole very complicated, my faith is based on things I find simple like the examples you used.

Anything that proposes that you know my mind or the content of my character better than I do myself.
I can only draw from information you’ve already gave me, if you want to dispute if it’s reasonable to come to that conclusion off that sample of information we can.

Should and shouldn't do what?
Generally speaking we should love and help others, and we shouldn’t lie, steal, or kill, this is all pretty basic stuff that I’m sure most people can agree on, it’s basic stuff like this is enough reason for me to believe I don’t have to be some Bible thumping Christian to understand these things are objectively wrong.
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#47
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@Tarik
Is your argument here that the only thing that makes you a good person is belief in some extra cosmic force waiting to spank you after you die?
No, what makes you a good person isn’t as clear cut to me as it is for other people, I find morality as a whole very complicated, my faith is based on things I find simple like the examples you used.
My examples leave no room for the supernatural. I think you have misunderstood somehow.
Anything that proposes that you know my mind or the content of my character better than I do myself.
I can only draw from information you’ve already gave me, if you want to dispute if it’s reasonable to come to that conclusion off that sample of information we can.
The conclusion that I don't think before I act? What exactly even gave you that impression?
Should and shouldn't do what?
Generally speaking we should love and help others, and we shouldn’t lie, steal, or kill, this is all pretty basic stuff that I’m sure most people can agree on, it’s basic stuff like this is enough reason for me to believe I don’t have to be some Bible thumping Christian to understand these things are objectively wrong
You don't have to be a Christian at all to come to the conclusion that it might make for a nice world if we were all nice to each other. I'm not sure I am convinced that it is objective at all though. For example is it wrong to kill someone in self defense? Be careful how you answer this. If it is not wrong to kill someone under the right circumstances then it is subjective by definition. The same goes for lying to protect someone's feelings or stealing from the rich to feed the poor. The same goes for helping someone who is violating your rather simplistic ideas of right and wrong. If it is wrong to help someone kill a person then it is not always right to help people but only subjectively based on the situation.
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@secularmerlin
My examples leave no room for the supernatural. I think you have misunderstood somehow.
I was referring to your rape and murder examples, I view them as simple not complicated.

The conclusion that I don't think before I act? What exactly even gave you that impression?
Because when I asked you why you say everything you say, think everything you think, feel everything that you feel, do everything that you do you had no answer leaving me with the conclusion I came with.

You don't have to be a Christian at all to come to the conclusion that it might make for a nice world if we were all nice to each other.
But “nice” just like the other standards you mentioned are vague leaving room to be interpreted in any kind of way which is somewhat problematic unless there’s a God that defines that standard.

If it is not wrong to kill someone under the right circumstances then it is subjective by definition.
How so?
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#49
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@Tarik
My examples leave no room for the supernatural. I think you have misunderstood somehow.
I was referring to your rape and murder examples, I view them as simple not complicated.
Yes I agree but what specifically makes it wrong? Why is it obvious? You have yet to demonstrate that your preferred system of accountability is in any way objective or even to detail exactly how you go about making decisions about right and wrong. Thus far you have not avoided any of the problems you have pointed out in my preferred standard. You have if anything added several layers of complexity by assuming a burden of proof you have yet to meet for at the very least positive claims for objective morality, some god(s) and some afterlife.
The conclusion that I don't think before I act? What exactly even gave you that impression?
Because when I asked you why you say everything you say, think everything you think, feel everything that you feel, do everything that you do you had no answer leaving me with the conclusion I came with.
I don't know where my thoughts come from or why I have them. That doesn't mean that i am thoughtless. Quite the contrary. I have thought a great deal about the subject precisely because I admit that i don't know. You will forgive me for saying that you give the impression, correct or not, of someone who has not really put much thought into this beyond (GOD=good=moral=obviously because I believe it and my gut could never ever be wrong). You are certainly unprepared to discuss any ethical discussion beyond the very simple (murder bad, love good) which is nice and fuzzy and feels good but isn't really a nuanced thesis on ethics and isn't really in keeping with the actual teachings of most religions I'm aware of.
You don't have to be a Christian at all to come to the conclusion that it might make for a nice world if we were all nice to each other.
But “nice” just like the other standards you mentioned are vague leaving room to be interpreted in any kind of way which is somewhat problematic unless there’s a God that defines that standard.
So are right and wrong, good and bad and all the other SUBJECTIVE language you have been using to describe your OBJECTIVE moral standard. Appeals to authority do not resolve this problem and you can't even put some god(s) forward as a possible explanation for or justification of anything until you have demonstrated one. Once you have established this first premise you can begin to try to explain how some god(s) necessarily leads to your preferred god claim and why we should consider that god(s) moral pronouncements "moral".
If it is not wrong to kill someone under the right circumstances then it is subjective by definition.
How so?
It is called situational ethics. If there are situations in which things which are so "obviously wrong" that you are using them as you most basic example are morally correct then they are subject to circumstances. In other words subjective. You are the one who has to decide if this is the case.
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@secularmerlin
That doesn't mean that i am thoughtless. 
Maybe I could’ve used a better word but your actions lack logic if you don’t know why your acting because regardless of validity I act as I do because I believe those actions serve a greater purpose (an afterlife).

isn't really in keeping with the actual teachings of most religions I'm aware of
I never claimed to be representative of any particular religion, I just have religious beliefs in a basic sense, I know I’m not perfect but I believe I’m right about that the very least.

In other words subjective
That’s simply not true, I gave an example of this in the other forum “I was subjected to this weather. That sentence has nothing to do with dependent on the mind for existence”.
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#51
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@Tarik
Maybe I could’ve used a better word but your actions lack logic if you act purely based on impulse and that’s what I meant by ignorance.
What are you talking about? What about what I've written has lead you to believe that I am impulsive or illogical? You are impugning my faculties because I remain unconvinced of a proposition that you have yet to even fully explain? Perhaps if I remain unconvinced by your arguments the problem isn't actually with me.
#52
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@secularmerlin
What about what I've written has lead you to believe that I am impulsive or illogical?
Because you don’t know why you act as you do you’ve told me multiple times that you don’t know (I responded to more in my last post BTW).
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#53
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@Tarik
I feel like we are not having the same conversation. I never said I don't know why I do things. What has brought you to that conclusion?
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@secularmerlin
reason you say everything you say, think everything you think, feel everything that you feel, do everything that you do
You never said you don’t know to this?
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#55
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@Tarik
As I suspected we are not having the same conversation. If you are asking why I have thoughts at all, if you are asking how and why human minds work the answer is I don't know. Even neuroscience is only beginning to address these questions and some of them may not be answerable.

If you are asking why I do some specific thing or my thoughts on some specific subject you will have to be more specific. Let's take being "good" as an example. I try to he "nice" to people and do the "right thing" because I have a sense of empathy which causes me to care about my fellow humans

If you are asking where this sense of empathy comes from we are back to I don't know although I have some working hypothesis on the subject but I'm not sure I can falsify them. 
#56
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@secularmerlin
If you are asking where this sense of empathy comes from we are back to I don't know
My point exactly (although I think you meant sympathy) you not knowing why you sympathize is an example of what I was referring to.
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#57
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@Tarik
I mean empathy. The ability to put yourself in another person's shoes metaphorically speaking. In any case it doesn't matter why I have this capacity. It still qualifies as the reason for some of my behaviors. You seem to be making a category error. You are mistaking understanding why we have reasons for understanding my own reasoning. 
#58
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@Tarik
An interesting discussion...Though you constant need to over egg the theistic custard....Is unnecessarily corrupting the purity of  Secular's basic axiom.

Axiom....I think therefore I am.

Secondary, speculative data output.....I am, therefore I create a GOD.
#59
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@secularmerlin
The ability to put yourself in another person's shoes metaphorically speaking.
There’s no metaphors in terms of empathy.

In any case it doesn't matter why I have this capacity. It still qualifies as the reason for some of my behaviors.
Yes it does, the reason itself can’t be “because I sympathize” if the question is why do you sympathize?
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@zedvictor4
Is unnecessarily corrupting the purity of  Secular's basic axiom.
The lack of theism is exactly what makes the axiom impure.

Axiom....I think therefore I am.
You’re overestimating the power of the human mind.

I am, therefore I create a GOD.
I am what?